Rated DPS Slot: 2x Marauder vs Marauder + Jugg

[Piam]

You have to be blind to think Rage Jugg has comparable survivability to a Rage Mara. If that were true, this wouldn't even be up for discussion.

 

There is however a trade off between survability and utility. A Rage Marauder can play more aggressively and has far better defensive cooldowns, while a Rage Jugg has better team utility with taunts, slows, push. That's assuming there is already a Marauder on the team for Predation on CW/Huttball.

[Smashbrother]

They don't die just as easily, what are you going on about? Jugg has just as good of cooldowns as a marauder. If you don't think endure pain is good or enraged defense is good, you're pretty terrible then...

 

I want enraged defense...

 

at 20k hp that's 600 damage healed a hit, that's over 12% mitigation of a 5k hit.

 

A hybrid/tank guardian yes. Focus spec, no.

 

Lol god your server must be bad if you're a top player on there. Baseline focused defense is *********** terrible. It has an internal cooldown on the heal, so if you're getting FFed, you're not mitigating that much damage. It also costs 14 focus to fully use which gimps your dps outright. Enure is just ok because your HP disappears after it wears off.

 

Oh and focus sents get 30s off GBTF, whereas focus guardians get -2 focus cost on FD. Lols.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Smashbrother

[Helig]

A hybrid/tank guardian yes. Focus spec, no.

 

Lol god your server must be bad if you're a top player on there. Baseline focused defense is *********** terrible. It has an internal cooldown on the heal, so if you're getting FFed, you're not mitigating that much damage. It also costs 14 focus to fully use which gimps your dps outright. Enure is just ok because your HP disappears after it wears off.

 

Oh and focus sents get 30s off GBTF, whereas focus guardians get -2 focus cost on FD. Lols.

I agree. It's really no contest. Jugg cooldowns aren't useless, but they clearly aren't in the same league.

 

I think it also needs to be stressed that what amounts to a "If you disagree with me you're bad" rhetoric that this guy is frequently using only works on the *real* bads - those who lack the knowledge to support their position and are afraid to lose their illusionary credibility if someone who pretends to be "leet" calls them "bad".

 

This rethoric serves no purpose in this discussion, aside forcing one's opinion on ignorant people, and, frankly, reeks of passive aggressive "don't nerf me bro" as far as this particular poster is concerned.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Helig

[Xerain]

A hybrid/tank guardian yes. Focus spec, no.

 

Lol god your server must be bad if you're a top player on there. Baseline focused defense is *********** terrible. It has an internal cooldown on the heal, so if you're getting FFed, you're not mitigating that much damage. It also costs 14 focus to fully use which gimps your dps outright. Enure is just ok because your HP disappears after it wears off.

 

Oh and focus sents get 30s off GBTF, whereas focus guardians get -2 focus cost on FD. Lols.

 

Who said anything about being a top player? And The Bastion is so great?

 

If you can't manage your rage then that's your own problem. And yeah I explained the jugg defenses weren't as good when focused fired... I guess reading one post and jumping to qq conclusions is the best thing to do.

[Siorac]

A hybrid/tank guardian yes. Focus spec, no.

 

Lol god your server must be bad if you're a top player on there. Baseline focused defense is *********** terrible. It has an internal cooldown on the heal, so if you're getting FFed, you're not mitigating that much damage. It also costs 14 focus to fully use which gimps your dps outright. Enure is just ok because your HP disappears after it wears off.

 

Oh and focus sents get 30s off GBTF, whereas focus guardians get -2 focus cost on FD. Lols.

 

A Marauder once told me, in all seriousness, that he'd swap Cloak of Pain for Focused Defense.

[Bare-Giin]

I've been reading the whole thread and I have to say that I'll take the reduced rage cost for enraged defense talent and finds that far more useful than the other talents to choice from (interceptor 40% speed a few sec after oblitirate and strangulate) and I'm never rage starved .. Its just a matter of knowing when to use it.. I always pop enrage then enrage defense, then I'll still got 8 rage left BEFORE I leap in and then both smash and scream is free.. Well enrage defense aint the best cd in the game but its certainly good if u know how to use it.. As rage i have a baseline of 34 DR and as someone earlier stated that combined with enraged defense is pretty good mitigation (especially combined with endure pain)..

[Jakev-]

2 Op healers

1 Buble sorc

1 Tanksin

1 Rage Mara (respecs for CW and Hutball Opens)

1 Rage Jug (respecs for Hutball)

1 Sniper or PT

1 Rage Jug or Mara

 

3 smashers wipes teams. The PT or Sniper breaks bubbles without getting stunned and makes sure key targets die. Respec Jugs and/or PT to Tank as the situation calls for.

 

So in answer to your question yes, I think lolsmash builds are better. If your server has come up with a better way to counter them than bubble stuns and a sniper by all means share. I see the team you described as having very solid focus fire, but not actually wiping or near wiping teams of its own level quickly enough to get caps. This is particularly true against 3 healer teams.

 

You'll be in for a rude awakening running that comp whenever cross server queues gets released. lol.

[Siorac]

You'll be in for a rude awakening running that comp whenever cross server queues gets released. lol.

 

Why? Give us some reasons.

[Smashbrother]

Who said anything about being a top player? And The Bastion is so great?

 

If you gonna call other players bad, then you damn well better be a top player.

 

 

If you can't manage your rage then that's your own problem. And yeah I explained the jugg defenses weren't as good when focused fired... I guess reading one post and jumping to qq conclusions is the best thing to do.

 

This is what you said "They don't die just as easily, what are you going on about? Jugg has just as good of cooldowns as a marauder."

 

Your own words contradict you.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Smashbrother

[Smashbrother]

I've been reading the whole thread and I have to say that I'll take the reduced rage cost for enraged defense talent and finds that far more useful than the other talents to choice from (interceptor 40% speed a few sec after oblitirate and strangulate) and I'm never rage starved .. Its just a matter of knowing when to use it.. I always pop enrage then enrage defense, then I'll still got 8 rage left BEFORE I leap in and then both smash and scream is free.. Well enrage defense aint the best cd in the game but its certainly good if u know how to use it.. As rage i have a baseline of 34 DR and as someone earlier stated that combined with enraged defense is pretty good mitigation (especially combined with endure pain)..

 

So what you're saying is in order to make effective use of this def cd, you have to use another cd? That's called terrible design.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Smashbrother

[UncleOst]

This is a common misconception. It's true that mara CDs may be simpler to use, but jugg's CDs are just as potent, sometimes more. Let me explain:

 

Saber Ward: Jugg's is better outright. The first 2 secs juggs are completely immune to white damage. Very useful for countering amubsh, ravage, gore burst sequences, series of shots from engineering sniper, maul procs, railshot procs, and when crossing fires (In rateds, juggs should be crossing fires, but that's beside the point. It's still an option)

 

Obfuscate vs Force Push: Force push wins hands down in most situations. Better base range, does damage, resets leap. Can be used offensively, defensively, and for utility. Obfuscate is easily countered in most situations by using yellow attacks or in extreme cases an escape/CC to regain momentum. Force push is also a short stun, so it gives control to the Jugg. Yes, obfuscate can be used to help team mates too, but Juggs can use taunts for similar affect. However, obfuscate is off the GCD, so that does help in certain situations, but in a less potent fashion. Ovfuscate also helps in situations where you don't want to affect resolve.

 

Undying Rage vs Endure Pain: Both abilities have their advantages. Undying rage + medpac will let you last longer when getting focused by 3+ DPS. However, the % of health it is used at is very predictable. Endure Pain + medpac gives a jugg a LOT of HP to work with (WZ medpacs heal based on % hp), can be used at less predictable intervals, and will allow the jugg to survive encounters with 1-2 DPS far longer than undying rage will. Endure Pain also works well with enraged defense and intercede heals.

 

Camo vs Intercede: Both have their advantages. Camo is much easier to use as an escape and has more potent results in that it drops target and can be used solo (hence, ease of use.) Intercede has more utility uses and has a FAR shorter CD. A good jugg will learn how to use intercede regularly to escape sticky situations, or after overextending to finish off a target.

 

CoP vs Enraged Defense: First thing that I need to point out is that the heals generated by enraged defense should be consider damage mitigation. On my Guardian, it heals me for ~650 per tick. This will provide 10-20% mitigation against most DPS attacks. (10% of a 6.5k smash hit, for example.) This coupled with heavy armor actually puts jugg survivability when active on par with a base damage reduction mara's CoP. Both jugg and mara have similar down times on these defenses (30 secs vs 35 secs.) I admit that CoP is better defensively, but the gap isn't as wide as most people believe.

 

Note: Vengeance spec Juggs are even more survivable. Even higher base damage reduction, 15% active damage reduction during enraged defense, and up to 16 secs of 20% damage reduction and CC immunity via unstoppable if leap is used on cooldown. Note that the extra damage reduction from enraged defense also makes the heals it generates even more effective at mitigating damage, due to the lower base damage amount. This couples nicely with other defenses such as WZ adrenal or saber ward.

 

I like yer post. It's one of the best I've read on the subject lately.

 

I've always said jugs were the smoothest class in game...love 'em.

I've taken a breather to enjoy the Jedi storyline, and decided to try something completely different. I've specced middle on my sent. There is a definate difference to the playstyle (ataru) and its amusing for me to play duel wield, for I always think like a jug.

 

The only time I truly felt unstoppable with my sent was in a warzone with decent healers. The uptime allowed me to create alot of single target pressure. A few times it almost seemed unfair lol, three shots are common.

Honestly tho my jug still wins, but I'll comment later once my sent hits 50.

[Asunasan]

You'll be in for a rude awakening running that comp whenever cross server queues gets released. lol.

 

I really doubt it. Class balance changes between now and when ever we do actually get cross server ques mean both our comps will likely shift. Regardless, I'm interested in your reasoning and what comp you think is better. Pls don't tell me its xerrin's build. That one doesnt have the dps to wipe 3 healer teams played at the same level, and the comp is on the squishy side with 2 pyro pts while nodes are contested.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Asunasan

[vimm]

Unless it's a tank hybrid, sent surv far surpasses guardian's.

 

 

 

Big whoop. The difference might be more notable if saber ward wasn't on a long *** cd.

 

 

 

I'd call this a tie. While push is awesome in huttball, pacify pretty much negates/significantly hampers the best dps classes in the game (sents/VGs/GS). Pacify also has talents to buff it, while push doesn't.

 

 

 

So much luls to be had here. GBTF is essentially a 2nd life. Enure is meh. If the health didn't disappear enure would be great, but it does, so it's just meh. Enure also doesn't prevent you from dying when FFed, but GBTF does. In both solo and group play, GBTF >>>>>> enure.

 

There's also a super awesome talent for GBTF in the very useful focus tree, whereas the talent that buffs enure is at the top of the crappy def tree, and nobody goes that high.

 

 

 

Camo slightly better. You're forgetting it has 50% DR. Don't underestimate the awesome that is dropping target. It essentially gives them another life. There's also talents that greatly buff the **** out of camo, whereas g leap has nothing in the trees.

 

 

 

Another no contest. Rebuke is a billion times better than ****** *** focused defense. First off FD costs 4 focus to use, and consumes 1 focus each time it procs. That's 14 focus just to get maximum usage out of this crap ability. This essentially means the guardian's dps is crippled while using it. FD heal also has an internal cd, so if you get hit by two attacks, only one of them will heal. So essentially if you're getting FFed, your claimed "10-20%" DR is false.

 

Rebuke on the other hand is free, does free damage (piss amount, but it's free), doesn't gimp your dps (increases it actually with talents), and has no internal cd on the DR so it's 20% all the time while it's up. When being FFed, rebuke >>>>>>>>> FD. Also, talents that buff rebuke are at the bottom of the trees, so essentially every sent has them, whereas the talent that makes FD good, is at the top of the crappier dps tree.

 

 

 

Vig is a terrible dps spec, though vig/def are best guardian tanks.

 

Let's also not forget things like trans which can help you escape.

 

Pacify has talents to buff it, but force push doesn't? You sure? Nope, you are incorrect.

[Helig]

Pacify has talents to buff it, but force push doesn't? You sure? Nope, you are incorrect.

In deep Immortal tree lol.

[Smashbrother]

Pacify has talents to buff it, but force push doesn't? You sure? Nope, you are incorrect.

 

Ya there is one, but its deep in the lol tanking tree. This thread is about comparing dps guardians and dps sents in pvp. Talents deep in the tanking tree doesn't count.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Smashbrother

[vimm]

Ya there is one, but its deep in the lol tanking tree. This thread is about comparing dps guardians and dps sents in pvp. Talents deep in the tanking tree doesn't count.

 

That's not what was said!

[republicrookie]

I would say a juggernaut because even though i'm a republic player most of the time juggernauts are the best you could use for huttball

[Smashbrother]

That's not what was said!

 

Can you read? If so, read what the title of the thread is. In case you missed it, it says "dps slots".

Edited December 9, 2012 by Smashbrother

[vimm]

Can you read? If so, read what the title of the thread is. In case you missed it, it says "dps slots".

 

Yep, I can read very well. What was said was that force push cannot be modified by talents and that's false. You you wrong; time to get over it (:

[Smashbrother]

Yep, I can read very well. What was said was that force push cannot be modified by talents and that's false. You you wrong; time to get over it (:

 

Ya dps guardians cannot modify force push at all. What I said was true. If they go so far up the tanking tree to get less cd on push, they are no longer dps guardians. Get it? But hey, if u want to keep ************ about this one thing and ignoring all the other points I made, go ahead. It just means you've got nothing better to say.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Smashbrother

[vimm]

Ya dps guardians cannot modify force push at all. What I said was true. If they go so far up the tanking tree to get less cd on push, they are no longer dps guardians. Get it? But hey, if u want to keep ************ about this one thing and ignoring all the other points I made, go ahead. It just means you've got nothing better to say.

 

That's not what was said (: