NO Addons please. There is another solution!

[ferroz]

Just look how they play its not hard. Are they overaggroing often, are they on the wrong mobs, are they helping with cc, are they using right abilties that the right time... will you see this in your precious stats?

• overaggroing: Yes; you can tell what types of damage they are taking, and can see if that's due to taking aggro on mobs.
  
• wrong mobs: yes, recount shows this. I called out the top dps in a voa raid in wow back during wrath who was skipping the adds.
  
• CC: yes, it show's CCs
  
• Right abilities: Mostly Yes, it shows interrupts, debuffs, CC breaks, and a full break down of how many times each ability was used and how much damage or healing it did.
  

 

There are games that are close to 13 years old and still being played where there never been any meters and funny enough, they actually get by there anyway. I wonder how....

What games are you talking about?

 

I mean, EQ had them within a month or 2 of launch (3rd party combat log parsers). So it can't be that one. It's probably one of the most popular of the games of that era, right?

Edited January 30, 2012 by ferroz

[Vargasisarocker]

• overaggroing: Yes; you can tell what types of damage they are taking, and can see if that's due to taking aggro on mobs.
  
• wrong mobs: yes, recount shows this. I called out the top dps in a voa raid in wow back during wrath who was skipping the adds.
  
• CC: yes, it show's CCs
  
• Right abilities: Mostly Yes, it shows interrupts, debuffs, CC breaks, and a full break down of how many times each ability was used and how much damage or healing it did.
  

 

What games are you talking about?

 

I mean, EQ had them within a month or 2 of launch (3rd party combat log parsers). So it can't be that one. It's probably one of the most popular of the games of that era, right?

 

You are talking about the illegal kind of software that was against EULA that was used by hackers? That people used to warp to bosses and even use stuff like ghost kill?

 

And yeah stop treating the game like a science project and go with feeling, its amazing how often it works just looking with your eyes.

[apla]

Just look how they play its not hard. Are they overaggroing often, are they on the wrong mobs, are they helping with cc, are they using right abilties that the right time... will you see this in your precious stats? There are games that are close to 13 years old and still being played where there never been any meters and funny enough, they actually get by there anyway. I wonder how....

 

They overaggro Gharj. Are they perhaps hitting the wrong mob? The encounter has only one mob 95% of the time.

 

And yes, I see things like this in my "precious" stats. Though the crowd control part we just handle through Mumble, that's not the problem. But saying what kind of threat I do on Mumble doesn't work, partly because it'd be filled up with "careful, I had to Assault", but mostly because I just don't know how much damage I do. I'd also like to make the choice for a few skill points a bit more educated than "oh, this sounds nice".

 

Playing a Discipline Priest back in WotLK, I know all about reading the stats wrong (they didn't show absorbs). I still want the stats to know what's going on. And Recount would also protect me when a tank in a PUG would say "suck healer" and I'd post the post-mortem showing the tank stood in a fire.

Edited January 30, 2012 by apla

[ferroz]

You are talking about the illegal kind of software that was against EULA that was used by hackers? That people used to warp to bosses and even use stuff like ghost kill?

No, the legal kind that were used by non-hackers. The stuff that parses the combat log, not one of the cheat programs that did packet sniffing.

 

When the game launched and they first appeared, they were generally run from a 2nd pc, since you couldn't tab out to see them; lat this point, they were quasi legal (later confirmed by soe to be fine, but it was ambiguous initially). Lter, when they made the game run in windowed mode (SoL? ) people would run them on their own machine.

 

The hacking/cheat programs didn't give you damage meters as far as I'm aware.

 

There were also things like EQ Watcher (alert system that ran off the combat log) at least as early as 2002 (not sure that link will stay live, it's the wayback entry for their site)

 

I used EQ watcher to set up audio alters for people talking in guild, and for people /telling me, so that I could hear when someone chatted with me even when I was afk selling in the bazar.

 

And yeah stop treating the game like a science project and go with feeling, its amazing how often it works just looking with your eyes.

I'd prefer it if you'd stop telling other people how to play the game and just worried about you.

 

Lots of people enjoy playing the game like a science project.

Edited January 30, 2012 by ferroz

[apla]

You are talking about the illegal kind of software that was against EULA that was used by hackers? That people used to warp to bosses and even use stuff like ghost kill?

 

And yeah stop treating the game like a science project and go with feeling, its amazing how often it works just looking with your eyes.

 

Back in vanilla WoW we had to go by feeling. And then a fire mage would overaggro Patchwerk, who'd proceed to walk over to the mage and kill a dozen people on the way. Corpse run, buff up, go again. Fun.

[Bionixx]

I've been saying this since beta. No need for addons as long as the interface is customizable and offers the needed tools for raiding.

[Novastinger]

I don't want addons (other than UI scaling/movability), but I do want a combat log, more than any other possible game improvement right now. How are we supposed to manage an operation focused guild, without the tools to measure performance?

[DefMike]

I wouldn't mind some UI modding add on, but I don't want a Anyretardcanraid addon like Deadly Boss Mods. Cause then the Devs factor in the use of those mods when making content.

[NicholaiJS]

I've been saying this since beta. No need for addons as long as the interface is customizable and offers the needed tools for raiding.

 

Agreement: Yes.

 

Disagreement: Wait no there isn't a disagreement.

 

Sarcasm: Bioware has not provided the necessary tools for raiding. Where is my automatic character player mod.

[Vxsen]

"newbie has been removed" ... guess u were the newbie cause u got overgeared guy 1 2 3 4 so the only slot remaining for u is the 5th aka the kicked guy.

 

and sorry but if u couldnt outdps a tank in wow i know why they kicked u.?

 

That was actually from the "fictional" part of my post, where I was giving examples of the sorts of unnecesarry comments people made as a result of mis-applying data from their damage meters.

 

But if you never found yourself in a group with a tank who was geared enough to out-dps a new player in greens/blues then maybe you didn't play WoW enough to understand why those kinds of things happened (or maybe you were just part of it?). I mean, hell, if I were tanking with my druid in a WotLK heroic, I could out-dps a new level 80 in my t-9 badge gear easy. Remember when swipe didn't have a cool down?

[Megasuperb]

The only add-ons I'd love are customization and cosmetic UI changes.

 

If there ever comes a day in SWTOR when I'm forced to clutter my screen with a bunch of meters just so I can PvE, a part of me will die on the inside.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Megasuperb

[nostdurell]

add-ons are really a joke. threat meter- rediculouse. pve, you have to face them in the end content. that's a no brainer. pvp, one don't get you, there are two that will. in pvp, it's been such a madhouse on players beating other players, i can't keep up with who is who hitting me. it just makes no sense to me. so this condescending attitiude some people have that if you don't want add-ons, there's something wrong with you, is just plain stupid. you're going to get it, and you're going to get it big from someone somewhere in pvp. just give up on this idea. pve, there's no control over. the score board they have at the end of pvp i find just fine the way it is. i can go for some customization add-ons. i see no harm in that, either. and i can't wait for the loud whiners who take this game more seriously than reality to quit their subscriptions, either. i've had it with them. they suck the fun out. Edited January 31, 2012 by nostdurell

[BazaCaza]

I'm fine if they stick with Bioware only UI customization but they at least need:

 

Damage Meter

UI Scaling - so I can actually see the debuffs/buffs

[Amharic]

I'm fine if they stick with Bioware only UI customization but they at least need:

 

Damage Meter

UI Scaling - so I can actually see the debuffs/buffs

 

I agree with UI, I disagree with damage meters.

[Tajz]

MMOgame cant develop on their own. You need "community"'s help. Addon is one of the way.

 

At least if they dont want ppl to screw their game, then they should have learn from the best MMOgame which addons are required and put them in place. Things like dpsmeter,UI frame is a must in my view.

[chronosxx]

Addons are not needed! They are a crutch that is all

[plass]

I personally hate those DPS/heal meter programs.

They ruined WoW for me. I played a ret pally from day one and I did pretty good except for solo, which was a PITA having no pulling ability.

But 5 mans, raids, did what I was supposed to do, what hybrids are meant to do. Fill in where ever there's a need. Very few wipes in any group I was in. I could be DPSing then stepping back and throwing some extra heals around, even off tanking when needed.

When ever some one had a look at the percentages I was in the middle for DPS, but same for heals. After BC it was "your a ret pally you should be putting out more DPS", etc. Playing became more of a formula with rotations, and burst damage, and less about paying attention and reacting as needed. H@ll a trained monkey could play a pally after awhile.

Those meters and PVP ruined playing a ret pally for me.

Isn't a game supposed to be about having fun? I've found most add-ons are for either the lazy (can't pay attention to who needs heals or buffs) or anal retentive (we all have to play this way) and they suck the fun out of playing a MMO.

 

jack of all trades,

 

MASTER OF NONE

[schwiz]

addons/mods are supposed to be the pinnacle of PC gaming, its a shame that more and more publishers are discouraging or not offering an API for it. It gives free improvments to the community sometimes even better done than the publlisher could ever do. Also, it gives a chance for a no name programmer/designer to build something great, make a name for themselves and maybe even land a job! That being said your idea about after FP stats is great.

[Amharic]

addons/mods are supposed to be the pinnacle of PC gaming, its a shame that more and more publishers are discouraging or not offering an API for it. It gives free improvments to the community sometimes even better done than the publlisher could ever do. Also, it gives a chance for a no name programmer/designer to build something great, make a name for themselves and maybe even land a job! That being said your idea about after FP stats is great.

 

Addons have never been considered the "pinnacle" of pc gaming. get that gibberish out of here.

[MorbidAri]

Hate to say it but only baddies don't want add-ons. But I will say one thing about them.

 

BW for the love of god, please please please please please don't let a DBM style add-on in your game. Blizz admits that their terrible raid fight design is partly due to DBM.

 

Give me meters, don't let people give away the fights.

[Ruklukk]

Hate to say it but only baddies clamor for addons.

 

If you can't feel the connection between your healing and your damage, between your threat and your environment then you are NOT a very good PC gamer. It is as simple as that.

 

That people can espouse being "elite" while they affix training wheels to their bike is almost too absurd for words.

[rhyona]

I feel like you summed it up perfectly, especially the part about the first person shooter mentality. Tools like what were used in WOW just take the fun out of games and turn it into work. Granted it did make players perform better, but that shouldnt be the point. Monitoring a bunch of little windows is not my idea of a fun time. All the pro-addon people can say "dont use it" all they want, but the reality is that once they are implemented they will become mandatory in order to get a raid spot and that's just not something I am okay with.

 

Edit: to clarify, I am against things like threat meters, and even against DPS meters. Those things are just not necessary in order have fun nor in order to win, so leave them out. If encounters ever become so exceedingly difficult that this kind of micromanagement is necessary, then take a look at implementing meters or other measures at that time. But right now it would just be an exercise in futility and caving to elitists who demand that their epeen be displayed prominently. Things like increasing the size of buff/debuff icons, or generally making the UI more intuitive and user-friendly, well that is a whole different subject and those things I strongly support.

 

Warning, my post is long so feel free to skip if you don't want to read it.

 

I'm sorry but people like yourself and others who claim that once addons are available that addons will become mandatory is a lie. Seriously, how far from the truth can people go. That statement that addons will be mandatory for everyone is such an outrageous statement. People should not be spreading lies about that. I played World of Warcraft for over 4 years and 2 of them while in Vodka on Mannoroth and not once were addons mandatory in guild. I probably did over 1000 pick up groups throughout my time in World of Warcraft and I never saw anyone requiring people to get addons. I quit during Wrath but up until that time I never saw anyone who said " If you don't have this addon, you can't come to this pug".

 

I understand why some people don't like addons and will refuse to use them but don't tell me that the game is going to be ruined because of addons. Yes, there are some addons out there that make the game easier but the vast majority of addons do not give a huge advantage in-game or ruin the game. Most addons help improve the game by giving you options for changing the UI, bars and ect.

 

I saw that you wrote that you are against things like a threat and dps meter. I want to talk to you about this because I feel like a lot of people in this thread do not like them for whatever reason. Are these addons necessary to the general player base? I would agree with you that they are not necessary to play the game. You can do everything in this game without them and still have fun. However, I feel like you and others are missing a point about those addons.

 

What do I mean? Well, to be honest these addons add a lot to the game experience for people who have the MIND SET of always trying to improve their skill and to get better as a player. I honestly don't believe for one second that most people are getting these addons so they can see who is not pulling their weight. Yes, you will have some people who will do that but most people are getting a dps meter so they can improve their skill as a player. Like, almost everyone who plays a game would in general want to improve their skill at that game. Sure some don't but I would say that most people do. A dps meter allows that person to view information that is not possible otherwise so they can theory craft and find the best dps rotation. Which leads to them doing more dps and therefore their skill level goes up.

 

I'm not questionings whether the addon is necessary to play the game or not because the answer is no, the addon is not necessary. Although, people like myself are always wanting to improve our skill and we can not do that if there are not addons that tell us information that we don't have access to. It's really as simple as that. Why would 1000s of people want to play a game where we can never truly reach our potential because the game does not have information that almost every other game has. It's crazy if you ask me if you think that's okay. Why would people with our mind set of always trying to improve and get better want to stand around and auto attack a boss because we don't know if we will pull or not. I'm sorry but it's impossible to tell if you're going to pull or not without some type of system that shows the amount of threat the tank is doing. It really doesn't make sense and it doesn't make the game fun.

 

If you have unknowns in the game then you can never get better at the game because of those unknowns such as threat and how much dps you are doing. You honestly can not improve your game play without knowing these things. Sure you can have an idea of how much threat a tank or dps is doing but in the end, you are still going to have to worry about if you are about to wipe the group because you pulled aggro. Anyone who says that

it's fun and okay not to be able to improve your skill is crazy. Do you really want people in general to be held back and to never improve because they have these types of unknowns in the game? I'm sorry but that's unreasonable and it sure as hell doesn't make the game fun if you can't improve as a player.

 

That's how I feel about addons in general because I'm the type of person who is always trying to improve my skill level. I understand that not everyone has that mind set and THAT's OKAY. It really is but please don't ruin the game for others because you think addons will ruin the experience for you. Everyone plays the game for different reasons and you always have a choice. I still stand by my opinion that addons will not become mandatory and I have yet to see that happen. You always have a choice whether to use an addon or not. If you don't want to use an addon because you feel it's not necessary then please don't use them. Enjoy the game without them because they will not take away any experience from you. It's okay to have people who are at different skill levels of each other and it's good for the game. If you can't play with certain people because their skill level is much higher than that's okay as well.

 

People need to realize that the game is not made so that everyone can be at the same skill level. If you can't group with people because they are doing far more dps than you because they took the time to theory craft and learn the best dps rotation than that's okay. You can group with people who are at your skill level and with people who do not use addons. Just don't ruin the game experience for others because of how you think the game should be played.

Edited January 31, 2012 by rhyona

[Yawning]

Hate to say it but only baddies clamor for addons.

 

If you can't feel the connection between your healing and your damage, between your threat and your environment then you are NOT a very good PC gamer. It is as simple as that.

 

That people can espouse being "elite" while they affix training wheels to their bike is almost too absurd for words.

 

Car drivers that want a speedometer, tachometer, and fuel gauge are baddies because they can't feel the connection between their vehicle and their environment. It is as simple as that.

 

People need to realize that the game is not made so that everyone can be at the same skill level. If you can't group with people because they are doing far more dps than you because they took the time to theory craft and learn the best dps rotation than that's okay. You can group with people who are at your skill level and with people who do not use addons. Just don't ruin the game experience for others because of how you think the game should be played.

 

Well put.

 

As an aside I frankly do not understand the fear of addons simplifying the game. The only argument I could make now is that actually having a workable interface would make performing various tasks easier because a player isn't forced to fight against atrocious interface design.

 

Difficulty in content should come in the form of engaging mechanics and tanking/dps/healing requirements that force/encourage correct execution, and not by a continuous struggle to work around bugs, fighting with a substandard interface, and trial and error based game play due to the lack of sufficient information to conduct a postmortem.

[KujinRen]

Isn't a game supposed to be about having fun? I've found most add-ons are for either the lazy (can't pay attention to who needs heals or buffs) or anal retentive (we all have to play this way) and they suck the fun out of playing a MMO.

 

...in your opinion.

 

Everyone has their gameplay preferences. Have you ever thought about those who enjoy the game much more with certain add-ons. What if these add-ons make certain players have more fun? That would be okay then?

[Manv]

Hate to say it but only baddies clamor for addons.

 

If you can't feel the connection between your healing and your damage, between your threat and your environment then you are NOT a very good PC gamer. It is as simple as that.

 

That people can espouse being "elite" while they affix training wheels to their bike is almost too absurd for words.

 

It's the opposite. Only baddies are against the addons, because if we get damage/healing meters, suddenly it will become clear that they're bad. And they're sooo scared of that.