Time for a PvP Fix

[fungihoujo]

You didn't read, or your comprehension skills are rather sub-par. What server are you on?

 

Sorry what? What part of standing on top of a sniper did I not understand? If that's not what I'm doing then what exactly did you mean by that- do you regularly stand on your snipers so enemy marauders can leap to you and easy access them?

 

You're assuming you're good because those you play against are bad- though, no surprise, you honestly seem to think rolling on a pvp server makes you good- when the actual only difference is you can gank lowbies on a pvp server while they quest.

 

Ever figure out maybe, if your server's sorcs are standing on their snipers letting juggs chain smash them- maybe you're playing with bads and maybe a pvp server doesn't mean instant skill? Or is that honestly what you consider good play.

Edited December 3, 2012 by fungihoujo

[Thurinlore]

Sorry what? What part of standing on top of a sniper did I not understand? If that's not what I'm doing then what exactly did you mean by that- do you regularly stand on your snipers so enemy marauders can leap to you and easy access them?

 

You're assuming you're good because those you play against are bad- though, no surprise, you honestly seem to think rolling on a pvp server makes you good- when the actual only difference is you can gank lowbies on a pvp server while they quest.

 

Ever figure out maybe, if your server's sorcs are standing on their snipers letting juggs chain smash them- maybe you're playing with bads and maybe a pvp server doesn't mean instant skill? Or is that honestly what you consider good play.

 

If you stand on top of an ally sniper, I won't be able to hit you without going in range of the sniper. That's why you would. I haven't ganked lowbies since launch, and I can assure you the overall skill level of my server is higher than that of yours or you.

 

EDIT: Jugg charges, jugg gets knocked back. Jugg obliterates, jugg is knocked back again. Jugg runs up, jugg is stunned. Also, if you think that a jugg smashing 2 people is difficult to heal, you really don't deserve to be arguing with me.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Thurinlore

[AdmiralParmesan]

Nice to see you posting thorinlore

[Thurinlore]

Nice to see you posting thorinlore

 

oHai

[Scovina]

I think the real issue here is not so much that we are gimped but that other classes have a guaranteed critical when we don't. When they do crit they also crit for usually a substantial amount more than we do. I have never had a ton of trouble with my sorc but I do have to try a bit harder than I do on my marauder. Which frankly is pretty much the name of the game when it comes to most mmo's it seems. While I do have to admit 1 vs 1 against a melee we aren't able to kite as good as I think we should we aren't in a terrible situation. Most of the time you should be able to frustrate someone long enough that they find another target if you can't outright kill them.

 

Also I think people seem to underestimate the effectiveness of aoe damage in pvp. While I know 1 vs 1 you want burst there are many times that when you get a small pack you can really help your team burn guys down. Burst is a better utility yes but aoe has it's place and we can do good burst when we get our procs. We are just a bit more rng dependent that others when it comes to this. I play a mara as well and I refuse to use the lolsmash spec. I admit it is powerful and useful but the nature of the spec just irritates me. I don't see any reason for any class to have an auto crit feature.

[CJNJ]

I think the real issue here is not so much that we are gimped but that other classes have a guaranteed critical when we don't.

 

Um... Not only do we have probably the easiest auto crit (Thundering Blast/Turbulence) but we also get an ability that almost guarantees us 2 auto crits(yet with my luck my DI never seems to crit lol). I will agree though, our crits outside of FL tend to all do much less damage.

[Chemic_al]

This just isn't true. We have abilities that hit hard. Death Field and Crushing Darkness with a Wrath proc are both big hitters. If you can't DPS down a healer 1v1, you are either undergeared or doing something wrong. We don't have the same burst as Marauders, sure, but we also enjoy the luxury of not standing in the middle of a pile of bodies getting hit from every direction. We can use LOS, and combined with our kiting skills can stay alive for extended periods because of it. We also have spammable AOE.

 

If you want the skills of a Marauder, roll a Marauder.

 

I agree that derp-smash needs a nerf, but we are not in that bad a position. A very slight buff might be in order. My preference would be for a slight buff on project.

 

Oh right..... because you play against bads...?

 

Only explanation I can think of for a team letting you kite them. You'll either be pulled or focused, because unless you're just dotting (which means no procs for you) and run the risk of your force drying out, you have to channel at some point.

 

No good healer is going to be bursted down by sorc dps, short of a lucky chain of crits.

[Chemic_al]

Um... Not only do we have probably the easiest auto crit (Thundering Blast/Turbulence) but we also get an ability that almost guarantees us 2 auto crits(yet with my luck my DI never seems to crit lol). I will agree though, our crits outside of FL tend to all do much less damage.

 

Easiest? HAHAHA

 

You do realize that Thundering Blast is not only a long channel, interuptable AND easily LOSable?

 

And almost guarenteed, is not auto-crit. And recklessness is on lengthy cool-down, hardly the same as an auto-crit after a leap which is on much shorter cooldown.

[Scovina]

Easiest? HAHAHA

 

You do realize that Thundering Blast is not only a long channel, interuptable AND easily LOSable?

 

And almost guaranteed, is not auto-crit. And recklessness is on lengthy cool-down, hardly the same as an auto-crit after a leap which is on much shorter cooldown.

 

You got to it before I could. Even if we don't get los'd or interrupted TB still does not hit as hard as the rest of the other classes. This is all coming from a strictly equal gearing perspective which I assume everyone else is thinking but it still needs to be said.

[verfallen]

You got to it before I could. Even if we don't get los'd or interrupted TB still does not hit as hard as the rest of the other classes. This is all coming from a strictly equal gearing perspective which I assume everyone else is thinking but it still needs to be said.

 

 

TB is actually balanced as the auto-crit internal force damage it is.

 

Imo, it needs an instant cast proc to help with burst, or linked with polarity shift (LS, CL and TB becoming instant casts while its up would be nice, or at least considered in case it gives too much dps)

 

I think I understand the smash damage, is they are considering the 30% AoE reduction many class have, as well as kinetic hitting armor DR. I still believe its too much damage for an aoe you can use that often, but I understand where they are coming from with it. You still get similar restriction (minus Armor DR since its internal) on death field, but i also suppose its more readily availaible than "lolsmash", altough on a longer CD, its ranged, with no buildup.

 

The issue comes that with that smash comes one heck of a snare, and still some rather hard hitting direct strikes, such as ravage, and if you manage to survive that, you get obliterate/choke, and smash again.

[Scovina]

TB is actually balanced as the auto-crit internal force damage it is.

 

Imo, it needs an instant cast proc to help with burst, or linked with polarity shift (LS, CL and TB becoming instant casts while its up would be nice, or at least considered in case it gives too much dps)

 

I think I understand the smash damage, is they are considering the 30% AoE reduction many class have, as well as kinetic hitting armor DR. I still believe its too much damage for an aoe you can use that often, but I understand where they are coming from with it. You still get similar restriction (minus Armor DR since its internal) on death field, but i also suppose its more readily availaible than "lolsmash", altough on a longer CD, its ranged, with no buildup.

 

The issue comes that with that smash comes one heck of a snare, and still some rather hard hitting direct strikes, such as ravage, and if you manage to survive that, you get obliterate/choke, and smash again.

 

This is my exact problem with it and why I choose to not spec it on my mara. The more people that do the worse off the class is for it. That and you can't los smash. They jump right on top of you and wham a third to half your health gone. That and they have better roots/cc overall. It's a a bit outta whack. Like I said before I don't think we are horrible but I have no hope that sorcerer/sage will get any real love. It's a shame because sorcerer was my first and favorite AC. It is what it is though.

[SoonerJBD]

Oh right..... because you play against bads...?

 

Only explanation I can think of for a team letting you kite them. You'll either be pulled or focused, because unless you're just dotting (which means no procs for you) and run the risk of your force drying out, you have to channel at some point.

 

No good healer is going to be bursted down by sorc dps, short of a lucky chain of crits.

 

Or maybe I'm just better at kiting than you. If you are being focused by three people, obviously kiting isn't going to work. But then you aren't going to win one on three anyway, no matter what class you are. Even a stealther isn't getting away from me and two teammates (dots bring them out of stealth after a few seconds, and I always dot stealthers).

 

You channel force lightning in a madness spec, but not nearly as much as you do in PvE. Everything else is instant. Most specs have some sort of channeled ability. The spec works just fine.

 

Derp smash needs a nerf, and I agree a slight buff for Sorc damage would be a good idea. I think they need to buff shock. But anything more than a slight buff is too much. It's not nearly as bad as you are making it out to be.

[Chemic_al]

Or maybe I'm just better at kiting than you. If you are being focused by three people, obviously kiting isn't going to work. But then you aren't going to win one on three anyway, no matter what class you are. Even a stealther isn't getting away from me and two teammates (dots bring them out of stealth after a few seconds, and I always dot stealthers).

 

Well now, or maybe you aren't a better kiter.

 

Still there seems to be consensus we need a damage buff - 15% would bring us in line with other ACs.

[SoonerJBD]

Well now, or maybe you aren't a better kiter.

 

Still there seems to be consensus we need a damage buff - 15% would bring us in line with other ACs.

 

Lol, no. A 15 percent damage buff would make us the new faceroll class. A 5 percent buff would be totally sufficient if coupled with a nerf to derp-smash.

[fungihoujo]

Um... Not only do we have probably the easiest auto crit (Thundering Blast/Turbulence) but we also get an ability that almost guarantees us 2 auto crits(yet with my luck my DI never seems to crit lol). I will agree though, our crits outside of FL tend to all do much less damage.

 

That auto crit doesn't hit like a 31 point ability, period. There's a reason why nobody goes full 31 into anything for pvp- the top tier talents are bad- and that's after low tier talents have been nerfed extremely hard too.

 

Thundering blast hits like a noodle- make it instant, replace auto crit with double damage, and make it do another double damage to targets below 30% health so it's an execute- bam, people may take the talent.

 

Creeping Terror- increase damage 50% (really, this dot is pathetically weak), Give it dot protection- if you purge it, it deals 5k on a crit in WH to caster and target as well as a 3 second stun through resolve. Give it a trauma debuff and the spec will actually be a threat to healers. Again- bam, people take the talent.

 

BW thinks they can make us go pures by making low tier talents suck more- they shouldn't still be nerfing this class, we were fine before 1.2 except for a few bugs that gave us double casts- they should have bug fixed first, seen if we were broken then- and then done big balance.

 

There's a reason why very few RWZ teams take a sorc for anything but stun bubble right now- you don't see sorcs or mercs or even DPS ops anymore in the listings. Frankly, once stun bubble gets nerfed, you might start seeing many teams go back to double operative healers and mercs and sorcs get left off the list of viable teams.

[fungihoujo]

If you stand on top of an ally sniper, I won't be able to hit you without going in range of the sniper. That's why you would. I haven't ganked lowbies since launch, and I can assure you the overall skill level of my server is higher than that of yours or you.

 

EDIT: Jugg charges, jugg gets knocked back. Jugg obliterates, jugg is knocked back again. Jugg runs up, jugg is stunned. Also, if you think that a jugg smashing 2 people is difficult to heal, you really don't deserve to be arguing with me.

 

Well then I must be stupid- because I'd stand on the other side of the sniper rather than give any melee free access that wants it. If I have a sniper- chances are it's at a defensive point. I can stand well behind the sniper, a jugg's going to have to run well into sniper range before he can even try to charge me- or, I can be like you and waste our KBs for no reason at all.

 

Maybe you'd do better if you stopped trying to get into situations where you need to use your defensive. Ultimately- the situation you're talking with a sniper and sorc- a sniper and sniper, or sniper and mara, or sniper and PT, etc.... would all be better for what you're talking about- in fact, a pair of snipers would give the jugg zero chance.

 

So, where's your argument that sorcs are worth something as dps- you're just proving snipers are worth something as DPS, and that's not something I'd argue against.

[Chemic_al]

Lol, no. A 15 percent damage buff would make us the new faceroll class. A 5 percent buff would be totally sufficient if coupled with a nerf to derp-smash.

 

Lol - faceroll just because damage was buffed? I think not. You really think buffing damage means in the hands of a bad, they can go and do well in a wz like the lol-smashers mashing a few buttons can?

 

And that 5% would not address the current 15%+ dps gap we have with other ACs at the moment.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Chemic_al

[fungihoujo]

Lol - faceroll just because damage was buffed? I think not. You really think buffing damage means in the hands of a bad, they can go and do well in a wz like the lol-smashers mashing a few buttons can?

 

And that 5% would not address the current 15%+ dps gap we have with other ACs at the moment.

 

This- pvp burst, or pve parses both show us way behind other classes- a 15% damage boost wouldn't come close to putting us 5% above other classes so there's no way it would overbalance us.

[Rigaux]

About the damage of Thundering Blast being balanced for an auto crit for being internal damage. The Sage/Sorc buff adds 10% internal damage reduction btw. Sorc Lightning tree at leasts needs some DPS changes to bring it more in line with others, and the base damage of TB to be more reasonable and to actually make it worthwhile as a 31 point talent. Even min/maxed it wont get anywhere worthwhile with reverberating force and autocrit. Edited December 4, 2012 by Rigaux

[Thurinlore]

Well then I must be stupid- because I'd stand on the other side of the sniper rather than give any melee free access that wants it. If I have a sniper- chances are it's at a defensive point. I can stand well behind the sniper, a jugg's going to have to run well into sniper range before he can even try to charge me- or, I can be like you and waste our KBs for no reason at all.

 

Maybe you'd do better if you stopped trying to get into situations where you need to use your defensive. Ultimately- the situation you're talking with a sniper and sorc- a sniper and sniper, or sniper and mara, or sniper and PT, etc.... would all be better for what you're talking about- in fact, a pair of snipers would give the jugg zero chance.

 

So, where's your argument that sorcs are worth something as dps- you're just proving snipers are worth something as DPS, and that's not something I'd argue against.

 

Whatever, it appears that I can't argue with you. Yes, we need a slight damage buff, but not so much as other classes need a nerf. I know what my class can do, and I get aggrivated when other people don't and whine to get extremely OP buffs that will never come.

[CJNJ]

Guess nobody saw when I typed our crits still suck? Also I said that we have the easiest way to get an auto crit move, in referring that all we need is a dot on the person that we are attacking, not the 5hr cast time. TB is weak from what I saw when I used it. Don't think I ever broke a 4.5k crit on it

[Thurinlore]

http://simulationcraft.org/swtor/130/Raid_Campaign_BiS.html

Our lowest sustained pve dps is 11% behind lethality, which is a bit less than the 15% you claim..

Yes, I know it's pve.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Thurinlore

[SoonerJBD]

Lol - faceroll just because damage was buffed? I think not. You really think buffing damage means in the hands of a bad, they can go and do well in a wz like the lol-smashers mashing a few buttons can?

 

And that 5% would not address the current 15%+ dps gap we have with other ACs at the moment.

 

No. The PvE Sims show our worst spec 11 percent behind the best sniper spec. Our best spec is within 10 percent. The parses show a narrower gap, between 5 and 10 percent. Seriously, go to Torparse, and you will find Sorcs and Sages listed in the top 50 for almost every boss fight. For PvE, we need a 5 to 10 percent buff.

 

PvP is completely different. Mobile ranged specs like Madness do far better than PvE specs where you stand and cast all day. Our ability to self heal and bubble is a lot more valuable. We need a 5 percent buff for PvP. No more.

 

And yes, a 15 percent buff would make us a faceroll class. You could spam force lightning and mix in one or two other skills and top leaderboards consistently.

[CephalicRex]

All the suggestions in the world can't help the sorc unless it is brought to the dev teams attention. We should be focusing our time on getting our singular voice heard as a community rather than a few random individuals, otherwise it looks like fleeting complaints to some dev that spends all of 5 minutes on a board if that.

 

Most of us agree sorcs need buffs in at least a few areas and we have a number of excellent suggestions already. The next logical step would be to get our message out with the endorsement of some respected members of the sorc community.

[Chemic_al]

http://simulationcraft.org/swtor/130/Raid_Campaign_BiS.html

Our lowest sustained pve dps is 11% behind lethality, which is a bit less than the 15% you claim..

Yes, I know it's pve.

 

Yeah, and where are marauders and powertechs on that? I know they are 15% ahead, easy. Even 11% is quite a gap don't you think?

 

Torparse you say?

 

http://www.torparse.com/statistics/Terror+From+Beyond/The+Terror+From+Beyond

 

Not a single sorc or sage in the top 50 on that fight.... hmmm

 

http://www.torparse.com/statistics/Terror+From+Beyond/Operator+IX

 

Oh look a sage makes it in at an amazing no. 42... rocking a whopping 330 dps behind the number 1 slot.

 

Yep sage/sorc dps is clearly in the right place.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Chemic_al