Non-English languages in General

[shava]

There has been a lot of grousing about non-English language chat in General recently, and I have been vocal in my support of the international community. I'd like to clarify several points here.

 

First, in the US, there are no language-specific servers because there is general language diversity. The US has no "official language" and in general, official documents must be made available in a dozen or more languages. So EA/Bioware is accustomed to a polyglot environment and supports it. When they created the language labeled servers in the EU they did so to gravitate various language communities to those servers for the sake of community and to ease their burden of support -- it was not meant as a lock on what was allowable in chat. Ever. And I clarified that with a CS droid yesterday.

 

No one minted and sealed this server as a ghetto for Brits and Anglophones. Sorry. (No, I am not.)

 

General chat is not meant to be English only. It's not in the terms of service and I suspect was never contemplated to be and never will be.

 

It's also not "rude" to speak other languages around you. Get over yourself. General is a commons; it's like walking on a public street. If you are in any big city (and I suspect Coruscant or Corellia, these are big city equivalents) you would hear Basic, Huttese, and a dozen other languages. Guess what? Real life is like that too. If you find that objectionable, that is an issue with *you* not the other person.

 

CS recommends if you don't want to hear Polish or Russian or Spanish or Tologu or whatever it is that is scrolling by, you put that player's name on your ignore list. Problem solved.

 

However, if you harass them for speaking a non-English language two things will happen -- you are liable to go on other people's ignore lists for being a parochial git, and you are liable for being ticketed for harassment. Interfering with another player's enjoyment of the game because of who they are for ethnic or racial identity is harassment, and some of us are logging and ticketing this.

 

Your ignore list is a far better option. You can ignore me too, I won't miss you and you might be on mine already.

 

Also for those who think f2p people should "get a room" and create a channel -- they can't. So thank EA/Bioware for that brilliant decision, perhaps. I do notice that most of the non-English discussion is people trying to find a non-English speaking guild to get away from the hostility.

 

I'm sadly disappointed with my community on this point. There are a lot of issues with F2P but this is a really trog element in the player base from my point of view. The Star Wars saga is about a struggle for freedoms for a diverse people over corruption and narrow mindedness, and on an RP server I'd expect more people to have their brains wrapped around those principles, especially on the Republic side.

Edited November 24, 2012 by shava

[Saliq]

As a non english speaking native, I find it disrespectful to others to speak in my own language in a public channel.

I am not an outspoken person on the subject, but I can't agree with you on this subject.

It's about respecting your fellow players, and sure some people can be ***** when it comes to how they react to people speaking other languages in general chat channels, but that's how it has been for so many years now, and venting your frustration here won't change that

[Stradlin]

Any and all languages have one thing in common, It is usually marks a sign of people communicating;p I'm in Hoth atm.Something like 20 people here. Was around 30 half an hour back still. It has been 45 mins since anyone said anything at all in general chat.(I checked!)

 

Your problem is that of a lively, social community. One glance at these very realm forums should make one think wether or not it is much of a headache for us. Wether or not I have a general chat with complete silence or general chat with "Tyä ootta kaikki pallinaamoja" posted once every 15 mins...well, how could I care towards one way or another?

 

Average SWTOR player is much, much less social creature than average MMO player. What language that rare occasional message in general chat is rly shouldn't make or break your day.

 

Ofc, there are notable exceptions; Fleet and Starter Planets. When I go to former, buzzing cacophony o cultures is just what I expect, it being equivalent to capital and all. Latter places being busy gives newcomers illusion of lively community with lively WoW-esque general chat with numerous asociated blessings and curses. General chats unavailable for Trials have been and will remain silent.

 

OP, 100 Credits says your post has more words in it than it has been posted today on ANY general chat on this server, save for Starter Planets, Fleet and Capital.

 

TLDR Speak whatever damn language you please. Speaking is something people generally speaking don't do much in TOR so hay.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Stradlin

[BaronV]

Stradlin... Dunno what kind of "The Progenitor" server you have been playing on ... but on the one I play on, general is mostly lively with some form of chat going on. Whether its fleet or planets.

 

The starter planets are full of non-english gibberish, polish people spamming things like POLSKA!! Poland Ruls!!,etc random keyboard spam like 1112211212WADWW as well as the same old newbie questions over and over and over again.

 

im one of those people who regularly tell people to use english on general. There ARE foreign language chat channels that F2P players can use. I also regualarly report for spam and/or harrasement those who consistently refuse to use english on general. And Im sure to post the please use english on general message in both english AND a google translated version of their language (usually Polish).

 

Ive been on this server since EGA and it has ALWAYS been accepted practice that you are expected to use english on general with the occasional other language allowed for one or two sentences. The difference is with F2P many of these (mostly polish/eastern european) players seem to think that its their right to be a jerk and really dont care about anyone else except those on their own community.

 

The point of general chat is that its addressed to EVERYONE. Its like going to an english townhall meeting and speaking polish, russian, or whatever else. Just because there is a large population of your community in the town doesnt mean that you can be rude to everyone else. let me be clear - IT IS RUDE!

 

You want to say something not addressed to everyone? Then dont use General! There are quite a few other language chat channels they can join (yes they cant create, but they can join).

 

If everyone just used general on their own language, itd be a mess where no one could communicate with anyone. Heck you probably wouldnt even see the messages in your own language because your too busy ignoring all the gibberish from languages you dont understand.

 

And BTW not using english on general USED to be a TOS violation... though I dont see it there anymore (must have been removed to cater to the F2P players). Early in the game people who were reported for regularly not using English did get warnings/infractions from BW. So it IS an issue they USED to take seriously (for good reason).

 

A quick google search even allowed me to dig up this old topic where the CS responded that they take thse sort of violations seriously. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=184769

 

So Stradlin - YOU clearly dont have a problem with a non stop wall of spam in your general. But a large number of other players (including polish/russians who use english on general) DO have a problem with it.

Edited November 28, 2012 by BaronV

[Erethrian]

As a non english speaking native, I find it disrespectful to others to speak in my own language in a public channel.

I am not an outspoken person on the subject, but I can't agree with you on this subject.

It's about respecting your fellow players, and sure some people can be ***** when it comes to how they react to people speaking other languages in general chat channels, but that's how it has been for so many years now, and venting your frustration here won't change that

 

I agree. Things are not gonna change. I'm spanish and I try to /w my fellow spaniards when I see they're speaking in my native language in public channels. It's not about "oh, god, stop talking that primitive language" but "Please try to keep the public chats in english ;)" thing, just to be polite. But I don't agree with those who go mad because of other people speaking in other languages. It's just, respect the others as you want to be respected. And if you want to speak in your native language, yes, you could do it in public channels, but you have a spanish languagechannel, polish language channel, groups, whispers... There're a lot of tools so we can keep the general chat clean and we all can understand each other. It's my opinion anyway, not trying to start a fight nor anything like that.

[Stradlin]

Stradlin... Dunno what kind of "The Progenitor" server you have been playing on ... but on the one I play on, general is mostly lively with some form of chat going on. Whether its fleet or planets.

No, General Chat is not "mostly lively" by any definition. You have very busy General in starter planets and the capital planets. You have a busy general @ Fleet. Beyond that, I have yet to see a planet where general chat could be called busy. Sometimes people talk a bit. Sometimes 45 mins go by with literally nothing going on. Usually it is relatively lazy " LFM for HC4 spam" Very rarely do people talk about anything or entertain themselves/eachother with anything. Never does General chat channel make a busy hive of activity. Of course, tis entirely possible our POVs differ due to Sith:Pubbie ratio. I play on Republic side. (more than one instances of starter planets almost always going. Occasionally more than one fleets. Max. of 50 people on other planets. Average of about 20-30 on other planets.)

 

im one of those people who regularly tell people to use english on general. There ARE foreign language chat channels that F2P players can use. I also regualarly report for spam and/or harrasement those who consistently refuse to use english on general. And Im sure to post the please use english on general message in both english AND a google translated version of their language (usually Polish).

 

Truly, you make a fine pillar of community. Mayhaps one day those dirty Polish people wil learn to know better than using their dirty language near you! Just keep patiently educating them, my lady. Eventually they will learn. I'm sure terrifyingly idle Game Masters who have absolutely nothing better to do enjoy your endles stream of tickets over an issue that isn't among things they view as an issue.

 

Ive been on this server since EGA and it has ALWAYS been accepted practice that you are expected to use english on general with the occasional other language allowed for one or two sentences.

Thanks for clearing this much up! Please, be little more specific; exactly how many words of Polish is a Polish person allowed to say in his own language? Is this hourly restriction? Daily? Weekly?

 

 

 

The point of general chat is that its addressed to EVERYONE. Its like going to an english townhall meeting and speaking polish, russian, or whatever else. Just because there is a large population of your community in the town doesnt mean that you can be rude to everyone else. let me be clear - IT IS RUDE!

No. It is like going to a coffee shop aboard a cruise ship and getting annoyed when you see and hear EASTERN EUROPEANS dare to make sounds you don't understand. Vast majority of messages in General chat are not adressed to everyone by design.

 

You want to say something not addressed to everyone? Then dont use General! There are quite a few other language chat channels they can join (yes they cant create, but they can join).

Guess what the flipside of this coin is? Have a problem with what General Chat is like? Want a chat that is every bit as pure and washed clean of dirty non English languages as you wish? Make it, moderate it. God(save the Queen) knows this server needs some entertaining custom chat channels, so I'd encourage you to do this actually!

/cjoin BritishEmpire(English Only, please)

 

 

So Stradlin - YOU clearly dont have a problem with a non stop wall of spam in your general. But a large number of other players (including polish/russians who use english on general) DO have a problem with it.

 

Not once have I seen active General chat or anything I'd count as spam outside starter planet, capital, fleet.

 

Rather than this being a question of what does or does not annoy me, or what is and is not " rude" it is mostly about picking and choosing them battles you fight. "ENGLISH MOTHER****ER" works if you are Samuel L. Jackson. You are not. Complaining about it only provokes them pesky Eastern European Free To Play peasants. Make some epic on-top-of-the-soap-box speech about it at @general chat and 17 year old Hans from Sweden gets pissed off too and joins the fun. If dude from Poland Understands English well enough to fully get your soap box speech about it and regardless has been busy speaking Polish.. do you really deem it likely he changes his ways? It is likely he does this because he feels it is his every right to speak his own damn language anywhere he pleases. Or because he likes to annoy you. Both are pretty likely.

 

You won't win over your windmills here, never shall these people and their Polish ways fall to pieces before you like once glorious British Empire did. In case something I have said annoys you, I suggest you search comfort from knowledge that - your - endless stream of spam tickets (yes, even English can be spam:O ) to GMs can possibly increase the duration my own ticket about bugged account remains unheeded!

 

You are fighting Windmills. Just /ignore them windmills. One mouseclick is all it takes. It is quite efficient. Not everybody near you will always humbly speak a language you wish in order not to annoy you. Tis' nice you get to practise accepting this fact online.

 

Having said all that I'm very glad this thread exists! 20 seconds spend reading front page of these very realm forums should make it painfully clear to everybody we have problems even more severe than unwashed Mongol Hordes invading our pure and belowed general chat. With five replies this is now among top3 busiest topics in hisitory of Protenigor server chat! Woohoo

 

P.S

And BTW not using english on general USED to be a TOS violation... though I dont see it there anymore (must have been removed to cater to the F2P players). Early in the game people who were reported for regularly not using English did get warnings/infractions from BW. So it IS an issue they USED to take seriously (for good reason).

 

A quick google search even allowed me to dig up this old topic where the CS responded that they take thse sort of violations seriously. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=184769

 

This makes one impressive way of managing " Not using English doesn't seem to be a TOS violation"

I'm pretty sure none of the few million people who have tried TOR have ever gotten banned from the game over using language other than English.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Stradlin

[KariTalRathe]

From the FAQ:

Why do European servers have language designations?

 

The language designation indicates the primary language, not the only language, that is likely to be used by the community playing on that server.

 

 

And that previous thread someone linked to was complaining about SPAM that happened to be in a foreign language. I would hope spamming would be dealt with regardless of the language being used.

Edited November 30, 2012 by KariTalRathe

[shava]

From the FAQ:

 

 

 

And that previous thread someone linked to was complaining about SPAM that happened to be in a foreign language. I would hope spamming would be dealt with regardless of the language being used.

 

"Spamming" is used in two connotations.

 

One connotation is commercial speech -- someone trying sell game currency for Euros for example which is against the terms of service and a bannable offense.

 

The other connotation is speaking in channel in a way that makes the window scroll rapidly.

 

People may have the perception that people who speak in a foreign language are spamming because the window is scrolling by without perceived content. Or they may just be expressing it that way out of frustration to be dismissive.

[Lyshar]

When there is a lot of gibberish in general chat I may do 2 things.

1. I ask people to please use English in public channels, telling that for guild/party I don't care as that's to be agreed with the people using it.
   
2. I go to my RP tab I defined on my characters, which I use when I want to RP, turning the global public channels off (say is still on).
   

 

The first usually doesn't work, but on occasion it seems to. In fact when I try to be polite and try to explain in a single sentence that it can be perceived badly and it's better to restict it to mostly the channels where everyone agrees to accept that language, I immediately get people attacking me for it because it's an "International" server (technically it's a European server with English main language).

The second means I can't help people with questions or that may want to do something. Ofcourse a lot of questions involve which advanced class they should pick, which the answer is always personal preference and play style.

 

I don't have a problem with the fact that people want to use native languages, but it can make for a much better atmosphere if they do it in their own guilds. I can understand if a guild makes an advertising message in their own language, but when they do that they generally do spam it. Result it that I may start putting those entire guilds on my ignore list.

 

Personally I avoid people of the same nationality as myself, or at least don't share mine so freely. At times I have let them know I also knew that language and they'd just use it to me. Then I regret sharing my nationality, it throws me off my game to have to use more than one language at a time.

 

BRC (both factions) I think it was (might have been another guild) is a good example of how you can do things as a foreign guild. The recruitment message is in english but states it's a russian speaking guild. I wouldn't have a problem with them sending a second message after that saying the same thing in russian. BUT then they would have to do it less, as it is they advertise quite a bit when they do advertise, but not yet spam level I think. - I have a different issue with that guild, but that is off topic and getting much less lately. If you want a russian guild this may be for you.

 

Polish guilds advertise in polish generally, this is quite noticible. But so do the spanish/italian/greek/etc. French and german have their own servers to speak on, so you don't see them so much, well the players you may but those are the ones that choose to use english online.

 

I play online and choose to use english on the "European / English" server, I know not everyone knows English or knows it well. And you won't catch me playing the grammar nazi, who cares if someone makes a lot of typos or bad spelling as long as there's no question what is being meant? But with other languages you don't always understand, and with most used you just don't.

 

Lately I noticed we moved to silent random invites more and more, but also group finding SPAM.

[Duaragon]

Well as non-english player myself i do agree its not hmm "polite" to speak in general mmo chats in other language than the general and common one for the current game.

But all in all i sometimes use my own language to find my country mates - but i usually explain why i used it and what i said.

All in all when i find people from my country i can go priv msg with them.

 

Btw i think that the option to create a private chatbox channel, something like "conference discussion" would solve all this "language drama".

[blackwatchpl]

Hi

 

I'm one from foreign players on The Progenitor, I use on general English, is polite is RP Server. If I see people used me own language on general I whisper them is not right . I know is a lot kids from me country after F2P option launch. Very important , for me is good opinion about players from me country, use our own language on general not help in this case. I have few guild mates from me country in our ranks, but on guild chat we use English to. Also not always acceptable behavior is not a matter of country, but only specified people. Is little sad seams we going to judge players for country they from.

 

Cya

[OddballEasyEight]

For this very reason i have actually turned off general chat completely.

As a person that does not have English as their native language, i think it is pretty disrespectful to use anything other than english in general chat, since general chat is to be used to communicate with the entire playerbase (on whatever planet you are on) and not just your particular language group.

Using a language other than English means you alienate a large group of the players, and fill up their global chat with nonsense (to them anyway.).

 

It is very easy to create custom channels to use for your native language, and using whispers if its a personal conversation.

 

I have never, ever used my native language in general chat, but i have used it in whispers, group and guild chat.

 

But some people seem to think that politely asking someone to please use english in general chat so the rest of us can understand what they are saying is a racist thing.

Its not. Its just common curtesy to speak the common language.

 

As for the "its like walking down the street" analogy, that is kinda incorrect. Its more like a group of people standing around talking and then suddenly someone starts speaking a language only one or two of the group understands. Thats pretty rude and disrespectful to the rest of the group. Like it or not, general chat is something that almost everyone reads, and therefore they are part of the conversation.

[ElyonRand]

I would just like to state for the record that if I catch anyone harassing players for not speaking English in General Chat, I will be reporting you for harassment. Not speaking English is not against the rules in anyway and by harassing people about it, you are technically breaking the law in every ENGLISH speaking country I know of, as Bioware would be for knowingly letting you continue. Keep that in mind next time you get annoyed.

[OddballEasyEight]

I would just like to state for the record that if I catch anyone harassing players for not speaking English in General Chat, I will be reporting you for harassment. Not speaking English is not against the rules in anyway and by harassing people about it, you are technically breaking the law in every ENGLISH speaking country I know of, as Bioware would be for knowingly letting you continue. Keep that in mind next time you get annoyed.

 

So... just out of curiosity...

Would you consider it harassment if one said "please speak english when using general chat so that everyone can understand what you are saying"?

[ElyonRand]

So... just out of curiosity...

Would you consider it harassment if one said "please speak English when using general chat so that everyone can understand what you are saying"?

 

You've missed my point. They do not have to speak English in general chat, there is no rule requiring them to do so, and repeatedly asking is harassing them. If you can't understand what they are saying, ignore it. They're clearly not saying anything that has anything to do with you, but repeatedly asking them to speak English is unnecessary. They have a right to speak their own language. You have no guarantee that they understand your request anyway, so just leave it be. Pretend it's an alien language if you like, adds to the diversity of the RP server.

[OddballEasyEight]

You've missed my point. They do not have to speak English in general chat, there is no rule requiring them to do so, and repeatedly asking is harassing them. If you can't understand what they are saying, ignore it. They're clearly not saying anything that has anything to do with you, but repeatedly asking them to speak English is unnecessary. They have a right to speak their own language. You have no guarantee that they understand your request anyway, so just leave it be. Pretend it's an alien language if you like, adds to the diversity of the RP server.

 

You are completely right, there is no rule about it. But the preferred language on the english servers is english, and politely asking someone to use english in general chat (a chat that is directed at all the players) is neither rude nor harassing.

Sure, if i constantly do it to one player every single time he types something, then its harassment... but it would be that if i just typed "i like your hair" to him every time he/she spoke as well.

 

From the FAQ:

"Why do European servers have language designations?

 

The language designation indicates the primary language, not the only language, that is likely to be used by the community playing on that server."

 

If you refuse to use English in general chat (despite knowing english) then its pretty rude since you are excluding a huuuge part of the playerbase. Especially if you keep doing it after others have asked you if you could use english instead so they can understand what you are saying.

Sure, if you dont understand english, then thats different... but why are you even on an english server then?

You wouldnt possibly be able to understand what the characters in the game are saying since they all speak english (or is texted in english if speaking "alien").

Unless of course you play the game in french or german but then id have to ask you why you arent on a french or german server in the first place?

[Rankel]

As another non-english speaker, I agree with previous people saying that it is disrespectful to use my native tongue in general chat. It kind of goes without saying, to most people.

Then there are those, above, screaming about there being no rule against other languages in general chat.

Well, there's the difference! To you, needing rules to explain everything, respect is obviously not a natural component. Hence, you fail to grasp what is clear to most others and thus you will always have people "bothering" you asking to, please, show some concideration.

[OddballEasyEight]

As another non-english speaker, I agree with previous people saying that it is disrespectful to use my native tongue in general chat. It kind of goes without saying, to most people.

Then there are those, above, screaming about there being no rule against other languages in general chat.

Well, there's the difference! To you, needing rules to explain everything, respect is obviously not a natural component. Hence, you fail to grasp what is clear to most others and thus you will always have people "bothering" you asking to, please, show some concideration.

 

I find it extremely interesting that most of the people that are actually against anyone asking people to use English in general chat seems to be mostly native english speakers, whereas most of the ones that actually think that its just disrespectful to not use English are non-english speakers...

[akkerin]

I do not understand how people can complain about what Language a person speaks in General chat it does not matter if you dont like it put them on your ignore list.

[OddballEasyEight]

I do not understand how people can complain about what Language a person speaks in General chat it does not matter if you dont like it put them on your ignore list.

 

Sorry, my ignore list is already full of people with idiotic names...

[Gizzybiscuits]

I don't really see the big deal. You don't know what they're saying, so what? Some of them probably don't know what the hell you're saying either.

 

I mean, I've seen a guild of people Rping in...Spanish or something? Was actually happy for them because they feel secure enough to do it despite probably getting shouted down at some point. English is kind of a tricky language to learn anyhow.

[Drake_Hound]

Honestly who cares if people speak in there native language .

it isn't that people have much interesting things to say anyway .

or really bother to read and understand eachother ...

 

They read but don't understand anyway . So to me I wouldn't care one bit ..

People bothered by it go learn the language , people not bothered by it good for them .

 

so anybody got any interesting subjects without some

Assumptions ?

[davkei]

I dont bother much for what language is spoken as long as it is not haxxor nuubzor talk or spam. But i also consider it to be polite to try speaking in a common known language. I am also a none-speaking english person.