"F2P may not save SWTOR" -- wired.com

[GrandMike]

Never seen so much truth posted in a post xD

 

Pretty much Bioware could turn around tomorrow and fix the problem with the game (Lag , Adding non-raid content like mini games , Same sex romance , Expanded Races and Appearances , and a Full 3D space , more than one way to level a character up to 50 or whatever )

and

 

You'd just have a completely new group of people finding new things to complain about just as loudly that where the worse company on Earth ,etc etc and they should die and burn .. That just what people do on the internet , it a form of Entertainment .

 

Soooooooo, its players fault that EA couldnt deliver what they promised to deliver?

 

Remember THEY repeated many times SWTOR would get 1 content update/month.

 

THEY were in full control of what kind of game to make, they chose the model (pure Theme Park) in which they either:

a) provide rapid game updates (much faster than fastest existing ones)

b) fail miserably

 

And, of course, b happened, as expected, and people HAVE COMPLETE RIGHT TO POINT OUT THE STINKER.

 

Nobody pointed a gun to their head and said "make a WoW clone". It was their OWN CONSCIOUS DECISION and all obligations and responsibilities were known. They failed and get picked on. THEIR OWN CHOICE.

 

I cant believe someone can defend bad product so fiercely, its really mind-boggling.

Edited November 20, 2012 by GrandMike

[Soluss]

Statement is correct. F2P wont save ToR. The cash shop will though. There are all kinds of idiots spending 100's and 1000's of dollars on that ripoff ****. EA didnt care about the F2P model, they just wanted to inject a Cash Shop into a subscription MMO without people rioting. Because lets be real here. There is no fluff in this game really. They supposedly didnt have time to make it. Now they have a cash shop and there is all kinds of fluff you can get from there. Imagine if there was no F2P. Would people except a fluff free game with a cash shop that has fluff and being only a sub based game? I think most people would feel ripped off. They still should now but EAs masking of it and most people dont see through it. Edited November 20, 2012 by Soluss

[Devlonir]

Ah yes, the fact based claims of themepark models demise, backed by the whooping zero successful non themepark mainstream mmos in the west. Giants of journalism and the genre. No vested interests at all.

 

Heh.. this post made my day. Perfectly describes how I feel as well. Follow the money.. and seeing the interviewed has money on Sandbox now anything he says praising sandbox and bashing themepark needs to be taken with a good handful of salt.

 

Moving on..

[Kortan]

Soooooooo, its players fault that EA couldnt deliver what they promised to deliver?

 

Remember THEY repeated many times SWTOR would get 1 content update/month.

 

THEY were in full control of what kind of game to make, they chose the model (pure Theme Park) in which they either:

a) provide rapid game updates (much faster than fastest existing ones)

b) fail miserably

 

And, of course, b happened, as expected, and people HAVE COMPLETE RIGHT TO POINT OUT THE STINKER.

 

Nobody pointed a gun to their head and said "make a WoW clone". It was their OWN CONSCIOUS DECISION and all obligations and responsibilities were known. They failed and get picked on. THEIR OWN CHOICE.

 

I cant believe someone can defend bad product so fiercely, its really mind-boggling.

 

Why are you still subbed then?

fail troll is fail.

[OceanwaveII]

Soooooooo, its players fault that EA couldnt deliver what they promised to deliver?

 

Remember THEY repeated many times SWTOR would get 1 content update/month.

 

THEY were in full control of what kind of game to make, they chose the model (pure Theme Park) in which they either:

a) provide rapid game updates (much faster than fastest existing ones)

b) fail miserably

 

And, of course, b happened, as expected, and people HAVE COMPLETE RIGHT TO POINT OUT THE STINKER.

 

Nobody pointed a gun to their head and said "make a WoW clone". It was their OWN CONSCIOUS DECISION and all obligations and responsibilities were known. They failed and get picked on. THEIR OWN CHOICE.

 

I cant believe someone can defend bad product so fiercely, its really mind-boggling.

 

Honestly don't think there a huge audience for sandbox games beyond a lot of bitter nerd raging Vocal MMO veteran who grew up with those games and inhibit game forums because major companies have abandoned them (Kinda like the person who swears Atari was the greatest system ever since that what they experienced in there childhood ) .Even in there heyday they never got close to the amount of money games like Guild wars 2 pull in a single month or a single week , despite losing there population afterwards . Even with Eve Success is based on being a Hardcore PVP , Being Anti-Newbie or obsession with running a corporations and making as much in-game money . When it comes to the ultimate kind of sand boxing modding only about 1 % of the actual players have the design skill or even time to make very basic mod content, There a reason people pay /train professional to make content and artist to create content , It is time consuming and require a lot of energy and time that an everyday joe just doesn't have. Nor does everyone want to live in an aimless/ directionless world for some false sense of freedom there an audience for that ,but definitely not a large one , not large enough to fund large games at least .Anywa Most of my memories of SWG came from simply having absolutely nothing to do and grinding the same deathwatch bunker or random cave on Yavin and people talking about how great it was to have an alpha super jedi that could kill everything/grief .If that a sandbox then it seem to rely on the freedom of ganking and market competition as the driving reason to play the game along with the general social element.

Edited November 20, 2012 by OceanwaveII

[GrandMike]

Why are you still subbed then?

fail troll is fail.

 

Yah, as 2,3+m people werent enough a sign rofl.

 

People voted with their wallets, so you may foam around your mouth all that you want, facts are facts.

Edited November 20, 2012 by GrandMike

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Back in 2006 (?) when they started with this game it probably seemed like a good idea to base gameplay more on WoW themepark than open world sandbox features.

Guess it took them by surprise that in 2012 everything remotely close to WoW seems dated and old school.

 

They could have done something based on Battlefront II gameplay, plus story, big and dynamic open world planets, RPG/Kotor elements and an X-Wing type space sim.

 

But.. hey WoW has lots of players, let´s do WoW instead.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Kortan]

Yah, as 2,3+m people werent enough a sign rofl.

 

People voted with their wallets, so you may foam aeound your mouth all that you want, facts are facts.

 

again, why are you paying for this game if you obviously hate it so much?

do you sincerely have nothing better to do?

[anstalt]

Some aspects of MMOs are done better using sandbox features. some aspects of MMOs are done better using themepark features.

 

The best MMOs will use both sandbox and themepark features to achieve a great MMO. The worst MMOs will only focus on one approach and will only appeal to a niche market.

 

 

 

For example, storytelling is best done using themepark features, i.e. quest arcs. These are preprogrammed, often linear quest arcs that tell a pre-defined story that engaes the player. Its nigh on impossible to achieve the same effect using sandbox features and thus the best way to tell a story is to use themepark model.

 

However, world pvp is best done using sandbox features: give the pvpers the tools to make world pvp meaningful and they will do it for years on it. You can't achieve this through themepark features (i.e. warzones) because eventually people get bored with the repetitiveness.

 

 

So, I look forwards to the day when a AAA MMO is developed that embraces both sandbox and themepark elements. The main challenge for whichever developer decides to do it is going to be accessibility. Lets face it folks, SWG had some *great* ideas, it was a beast of a sandbox, however it was monumentally complicated to get in to and enjoy. As a result, most people didn't like it because they didn't get it. The same is true for most sandbox MMOs: the features are good, but the games are not accessible to the masses. Sandbox MMOs typically require a hardcore playstyle and there simply aren't enough hardcore players. The first developer to make a sandbox MMORPG that is accessible to the masses will have a winner.

[Divona]

Thanks OP for the article. It was simple and makes sense.

 

And it nicely sums up everything in the end.

"In the end, the phenomenon is something any parent already understands: Give a kid an expensive toy and they’ll grow bored within hours, but give them an empty cardboard box and their imagination will run wild for days".

 

Why minecraft and Sims are so popular, take a guess.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Some aspects of MMOs are done better using sandbox features. some aspects of MMOs are done better using themepark features.

 

True. The mythical sandbox/themepark hybrid everyone wants, but no one makes.

 

Only CCP got it with World of Darkness, but it will take at least another year.

[OceanwaveII]

Thanks OP for the article. It was simple and makes sense.

 

And it nicely sums up everything in the end.

 

 

Why minecraft and Sims are so popular, take a guess.

 

There not Cardboard boxes in the slightest , There an Engine that is programmed with limits , with content base , New houses new pets new decoration released by a publisher if were talking about the Sims. There are goals and mission to take ,Nothing Cardboard-box or imaginary about any of it when it comes to the sims( Down to the Fuzzy AI emulation of life Algorithms ) . And MineCraft ?most people who play minecraft probably use other people mods created by folks that are more talented than themselves who have skills in modeling or programming , . With Minecraft there is no cardboard box , just an offloading of content development onto hobbyist with the skill and time to create those mods to make it enjoyable. Same with Skyrim , Most of people that bought that game never made a mod or never will make a mod or even touched an art program for that matter.

Edited November 20, 2012 by OceanwaveII

[BrunoLogan]

Some aspects of MMOs are done better using sandbox features. some aspects of MMOs are done better using themepark features.

 

The best MMOs will use both sandbox and themepark features to achieve a great MMO. The worst MMOs will only focus on one approach and will only appeal to a niche market.

 

 

 

For example, storytelling is best done using themepark features, i.e. quest arcs. These are preprogrammed, often linear quest arcs that tell a pre-defined story that engaes the player. Its nigh on impossible to achieve the same effect using sandbox features and thus the best way to tell a story is to use themepark model.

 

However, world pvp is best done using sandbox features: give the pvpers the tools to make world pvp meaningful and they will do it for years on it. You can't achieve this through themepark features (i.e. warzones) because eventually people get bored with the repetitiveness.

 

 

So, I look forwards to the day when a AAA MMO is developed that embraces both sandbox and themepark elements. The main challenge for whichever developer decides to do it is going to be accessibility. Lets face it folks, SWG had some *great* ideas, it was a beast of a sandbox, however it was monumentally complicated to get in to and enjoy. As a result, most people didn't like it because they didn't get it. The same is true for most sandbox MMOs: the features are good, but the games are not accessible to the masses. Sandbox MMOs typically require a hardcore playstyle and there simply aren't enough hardcore players. The first developer to make a sandbox MMORPG that is accessible to the masses will have a winner.

 

So true! You nailed it on the head!

IMHO, the best approach is to go the themepark way at the begining of the game (the story and such) and then smoothly introduce the sandbox features. This way it will be easier to get the players into the game and stay there learning as the time passes instead of dumping all the sandbox stuff and say "you're on your own".

[GrandMike]

So true! You nailed it on the head!

IMHO, the best approach is to go the themepark way at the begining of the game (the story and such) and then smoothly introduce the sandbox features. This way it will be easier to get the players into the game and stay there learning as the time passes instead of dumping all the sandbox stuff and say "you're on your own".

 

Heh, irony is we proposed this few years before release, BWs idea to make leveling (replayability) interesting by introducing much better quality class quests AND you can hit max level by just doing class story was very good.

 

We proposed (begged as the time passed) to them they make endgame much more sandboxish because "classic" endgame is stale and has lost all appeal over the years, imaginary carrot by chasing next pair of pants that will make you uber is archaic and people wont stay subbed for THAT.

 

Of course, forums were filled with so called "MMOers" that insisted game must be made exactly like WoW or its failure from the start (oh the irony) and somehow BW budged, not even just for endgame but for leveling too, as we got crapload of generic low quality MMO quests, quest hubs and what not, and class story is miniscule part of leveling, without any consequences or anything lasting.... It made replayability dreadful.

 

At one point (now in distant past) BW said that there are 2 kinds of games (Theme park and Sandbox, they called them "Game" and "World") and that they are making a hybrid. Wonder where BW from that time is?

 

I know, eaten by EA and corporate greed so we got subpar WoW clone that, as expected, failed.

 

again, why are you paying for this game if you obviously hate it so much?

do you sincerely have nothing better to do?

*some more foam* rawr

Edited November 20, 2012 by GrandMike

[ChazDoit]

Back in 2006 (?) when they started with this game it probably seemed like a good idea to base gameplay more on WoW themepark than open world sandbox features.

Guess it took them by surprise that in 2012 everything remotely close to WoW seems dated and old school.

 

They could have done something based on Battlefront II gameplay, plus story, big and dynamic open world planets, RPG/Kotor elements and an X-Wing type space sim.

 

But.. hey WoW has lots of players, let´s do WoW instead.

 

If I had to develop a triple A MMO, I would go for a 50% themepark 50% sandbox approach a do adjustments along the way, because if you go 100% themepark like Bioware did, you might end up releasing at a time where players a craving a more sandboxy experience.

[Surakis]

SWG was not bleeding subs prior to the CU.

 

Yes it was. The game was failing. The CU and NGE were attempts to reverse it. While they failed, they didn't cause the death of SWG, that was already happening.

[BrunoLogan]

Heh, irony is we proposed this few years before release, BWs idea to make leveling (replayability) interesting by introducing much better quality class quests AND you can hit max level by just doing class story was very good.

 

We proposed (begged as the time passed) to them they make endgame much more sandboxish because "classic" endgame is stale and has lost all appeal over the years, imaginary carrot by chasing next pair of pants that will make you uber is archaic and people wont stay subbed for THAT.

 

Of course, forums were filled with so called "MMOers" that insisted game must be made exactly like WoW or its failure from the start (oh the irony) and somehow BW budged, not even just for endgame but for leveling too, as we got crapload of generic low quality MMO quests, quest hubs and what not, and class story is miniscule part of leveling, without any consequences or anything lasting.... It made replayability dreadful.

 

At one point (now in distant past) BW said that there are 2 kinds of games (Theme park and Sandbox, they called them "Game" and "World") and that they are making a hybrid. Wonder where BW from that time is?

 

I know, eaten by EA and corporate greed so we got subpar WoW clone that, as expected, failed.

 

 

*some more foam* rawr

 

I like this game, I really do but if BW want to keep it running for a good while, they'll have to introduce some sandbox elements. One or two planets where factions, through players work, could build structures for resource gathering in order to build other kind of buildings and items would be sweet. This mixed with PvP battles which the outcome would be to get some more land to expand would be much appreciated!

This resource gathering + building would be really nice to get guilds doing it in order to build the long waited capital ship or ground bases. With time, will and creativity so much can be done in this game!

The Operations and Flashpoints are still ok in order to provide galaxy wide story progression but more is needed to keep players engaged in the game.

Edited November 20, 2012 by BrunoLogan

[Zoiks]

Why do people have to come up with such ludicrous reasoning? Oh it's not that the game is boring, it's that they're bored because it's a themepark! It's not that the game isn't as interesting as its competition, it's because of the subscription price.

 

Guess what? Boring sandbox games tend to bore people too. Games that don't compare well to their competition can't keep people playing them, and making that game f2p only gets people to take a look at it, not to consistently spend money on it.

 

You want your game to do well? Make a good game.

 

Note that just copying the current king of the genre only works if you copy it at the quality it's at when YOU launch AND have some desired improvements to the genre.

[Soluss]

SWG was not bleeding subs prior to the CU. The CU caused the initial bleed in subs. It totally borked all the Non-combat classes and took away from the over all economy. It broke the economy period. From support buffs to crafted gear. All broken. You can go to:

 

intrepid.galaxyserver.com and read in the SWG forum specicially in the sub forum on the protests covered by that sites in game reporter at the time.

 

The CU was the beginning of the slow death of SWG.

 

Wrong, SWG was bleeding subs far before the CU....

 

http://rubenfield.com/?p=86

 

I will take a developers statement over some gamer with rose tinted goggles any day. I played that game with over 100 people and everyone of them left before the CU, besides me and brother.

 

Usually, you have pretty fair posts, not always but usually. On this one you are wrong.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Soluss

[neocoma]

Na, screw the themepark thing. We know it for almost 8 years now and we are tired of it. Funny thing is that the only MMO out there, next to WoW, that still lasts is EVE Online. A game which is gameplay-wise so effing boring but everything wrapped around is so epic. I love reading the stories about heists and stuff, politics and whatnot and everytime I do read them I say to myself "Heck why doesnt MMO X provide such freedom and opportunities?!"

 

Now that statement about themparks dying makes me wonder how elder scrolls online will develope and which direction it will take.

[lklinga]

Yah, as 2,3+m people werent enough a sign rofl.

 

People voted with their wallets, so you may foam aeound your mouth all that you want, facts are facts.

 

Fact is that this is a very successful MMO.

 

Maybe not a blockbuster like everyone thought it would be but it is very successful game no matter what think.

 

Number 2 or 3 as western mmo's are concerned is not a fail sir.

[GrandMike]

Fact is that this is a very successful MMO.

 

Maybe not a blockbuster like everyone thought it would be but it is very successful game no matter what think.

 

Number 2 or 3 as western mmo's are concerned is not a fail sir.

 

Oooh, yes 300-500m$ game. Results: 2 rounds of layoffs, 2 rounds of server merges form 220+ ->20, massive quittage, F2P in well under the year, EA CEO said its a miss, EA themselves said people think its not worth 15$.

 

Yah, shining example of epic success

 

I dont think success means what you think it means.

Edited November 20, 2012 by GrandMike

[Rayla_Felana]

Oooh, yes 300-500m$ game. Results: 2 rounds of layoffs, 2 rounds of server merges form 220+ ->20, massive quittage, F2P in well under the year, EA CEO said its a miss, EA themselves said people think its not worth 15$.

 

Yah, shining example of epic success

 

I dont think success means what you think it means.

 

Then every Sub based Western MMO but WoW is a total failure, with TOR being the least of these as it's managed to stabilise and avoid the usually inevitable whirlpool of death.

[NamShub]

Yes it was. The game was failing. The CU and NGE were attempts to reverse it. While they failed, they didn't cause the death of SWG, that was already happening.

 

The reason it was bleeding subs was that the game had descended into the hologrind and solo groups due to the imbalanced armor / doc buff combination. Rather than fix longstanding bugs and address a few key balance issues that were affecting game play SOE went with the CU which just accellerated the bleeding.

[Soluss]

Fact is that this is a very successful MMO.

 

Maybe not a blockbuster like everyone thought it would be but it is very successful game no matter what think.

 

Number 2 or 3 as western mmo's are concerned is not a fail sir.

 

When the CEO of EA says that ToR is a miss... that means its a failure.