Hotbars? Really?

[TeRrAsHaDe]

What i don't get is the people that are complaing and saying that GW2 is so much better for a few reasons;

 

1) the model is totally different.

2) as some one said earlyer you pay like what £40 for GW2 but to but 2 action bars its like £1-2 and then yeah you get all the other xp boosts and fp loot unlocks but if you like the game then urm why not support it and if you dont like the game and GW2 is sooooo much better in your opinion then go play it and stop posting here...

3) Ive been a sub since release and personally i still love this game i have had a few months out but not because of not wanting to play the game they could have done F2P alot worse in that they could have had gear that is 10x better than any other obtainable gear in the game unless you pay for it... but would that make you all happier?

[fro_do_fraggins]

The UI limitation has already pushed me away. They had a chance to get cash from me if I stayed, as I enjoy the class stories, but with me gone they'll get zero. Hopefully they'll pull their heads out of their asses.

[FerrusPA]

For ****s sake man apples to oranges. This isn't real life and you aren't going to die if you don't pay up. You just wont have all the content. It's a game and one they want to (news flash) make money on. I swear people have so many ideas about how to make a better game then go do it. I'm not saying you have to lie down and eat whatever you are given but if you don't support it then you can't complain about what you get.

 

I'm pretty sure you get exactly what I wanted to say so stop trying to sound offended.

 

Withholding essential, yes, essential parts of the UI is just sleazy and puts the entire rest of their F2P model in a bad light.

[althene]

You can play the entire stoyline for free. F2P to me, restrictions aside. Spend $20 or so to unlock hotbars and hide head slots and your good to go. Heck, if you shell out $60 like the price of GW2 you can play easily with most restrictions removed.

 

Except it's not 20 bucks. It's more like 5 to 10. I don't really agree with the hotbar limit of 2, mostly because I'm so used to having more, but it's genuinely not a big deal. As far as head slots and titles go, those are pretty much the epitome of novelty and flash. If you REALLY want to have the title "Mr. Epeen" or hide that (admittedly horrible) head slot, then drop a dime people. You can play the game (free) without it, but you pay for customization. Quite frankly, for the cost of what I pay every month for a sub, another player can get almost the same customization and UI function. And they only have to pay for it once. If you're a returning player, this might be a bit of a culture shock, but as a player that abandoned their sub and left the game anyway, I'm sure there were other reasons for you to do so and your expectations were set overly high on your return to begone with.

[happydictates]

What i don't get is the people that are complaing and saying that GW2 is so much better for a few reasons;

 

1) the model is totally different.

2) as some one said earlyer you pay like what £40 for GW2 but to but 2 action bars its like £1-2 and then yeah you get all the other xp boosts and fp loot unlocks but if you like the game then urm why not support it and if you dont like the game and GW2 is sooooo much better in your opinion then go play it and stop posting here...

3) Ive been a sub since release and personally i still love this game i have had a few months out but not because of not wanting to play the game they could have done F2P alot worse in that they could have had gear that is 10x better than any other obtainable gear in the game unless you pay for it... but would that make you all happier?

 

GW2 is a different model - you're right. It's also competition. Yes, Bioware could have done F2P a lot worse. They also could have done it a lot better. "[Feature] could have been worse" seems about the best defense Bioware and SWTOR's fanbase have come up with since release.

 

"If game X is so much better than this, go play it" is the reason SWTOR had so much trouble. Unfortunately, this is the same line people were using when the game released. Even more unfortunate is that Bioware took this stance. There were better games out there and people did leave SWTOR to play them. Keep thinking that way and your precious SWTOR will only die faster.

 

Believe it or not, I'm willing to buy things with CC. I've used the cash shop of many games before and I'm willing to do so again. What I will not do is pay for basic game features. If they want to lock a few races, newer flashpoints, or brand new content - not a problem. If they want to hinder my ability to use skills, travel through a zone, or even toggle my headgear, I and many others will find something better.

 

Stop fooling yourself into thinking you are protecting Bioware and SWTOR when you defend this F2P model. You are hammering nails into their coffin.

[althene]

Deleted due to wrong quote and irrelevant content by user. Edited November 17, 2012 by althene
Irrelevant post

[Scovina]

I'm pretty sure you get exactly what I wanted to say so stop trying to sound offended.

 

Withholding essential, yes, essential parts of the UI is just sleazy and puts the entire rest of their F2P model in a bad light.

 

What you said had no bearing on the discussion though. I realize we disagree on what is essential and what isn't but then that is life yes. Not having those features makes you think about your skill choices a bit more but it is far from essential. You are getting a taste of what you can expect if you sub or pay for some extra features. You would be over level 30 before you even needed the extra bars anyway if you feel that way. Take off things like the buff, mounts, fleet pass etc and you have plenty of space to test out a huge portion of the game and then some.

 

It just amazes me what people are complaining about. If you had the bars it would be something else. If you had those other things it would be yet another thing. They have to make some money to support this game. For those of you thinking well I bought it months ago guess what they spent that money already. I couldn't hire a good programmer for more than a few hours on the price of one bought download let alone a team. You don't even have to buy the game period now! How much better can it get than to spend a few dollars and now you have the game and all the hotbars. Seeing as most of you agree that is the point of contention f2p got off pretty damn good imo.

 

However I would sign a petition allowing f2p players that had bought the game originally to have some of those features. It seems reasonable to me but then again I'm not the one running this.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Scovina

[Jjix]

 

It just amazes me what people are complaining about. If you had the bars it would be something else. If you had those other things it would be yet another thing. They have to make some money to support this game. For those of you thinking well I bought it months ago guess what they spent that money already. I couldn't hire a good programmer for more than a few hours on the price of one bought download let alone a team. You don't even have to buy the game period now! How much better can it get than to spend a few dollars and now you have the game and all the hotbars. Seeing as most of you agree that is the point of contention f2p got off pretty damn good imo.

 

However I would sign a petition allowing f2p players that had bought the game originally to have some of those features. It seems reasonable to me but then again I'm not the one running this.

 

It sounds too me that you don't really understand f2p, and that is perfectly OK since many people are in the same boat. The problem for people in your camp is that they are at a loss to explain why f2p is so rapidly replacing the subscription model in the MMO world and is nearing the point where it has entirely swept subscriptions right out of existence. If subscriptions are the best way to make money, why are most companies switching to f2play?

 

The essence of the subscription model is that people pay for entertainment, it is the standard model used since anyone can remember. In this view, ultimately the key to making money is to get people who are willing to pay in order to play. The problem with this model is that in today's online world, there are SO many options that you just don't get enough people who are willing to commit to just one game in order to pay.

 

The essence of the free model is that the key is popularity. In a world of so many options, a popular game = a better game, at least in the public's perception, and the better the game the more people want to play it, and the more people want to play it, the more other people think it might be worth trying. And with no cost whatsoever, what harm can there be in trying it? The more people playing it, the more money comes in just from skimming the top. Not from charging people TO play it, but from charging people for any extra perks they might want (a perk shop) and in some cases from charging companies to allow them to advertise through the game. This is the standard model used by internet companies and products across the board, from Facebook to Angrybirds.

 

Right now SWTOR is using a hybrid model, usually these models are referred to as Pay2Win. If you want to win, you need to pay real money. (Sure, you can play some aspects of the game for free, but anything that involves grouping with other players requires that you pay in order to compete and participate realistically. Showing up to a raid wearing green/blue gear isn't going to work, period. Same for PvP. The hotbar issue is just the first thing players immediately noticed in terms of limitations that will prevent the f2play'er from really being able to participate, but it is hardly the worse or most clearly intended strategy to force someone from f2play into subscription.) The problem with the pay2win model is that new intelligent f2p players, who aren't necessarily in love with the game enough to subscribe, realize that they will never really be able to complete so there is no point in committing more time to the game and they leave. But even though those players were never going to pay in the first place, their presence in the game is vital in order to provide the game with energy and vibrancy. Lose enough of these players, and you are back to a dying SWTOR.

 

SWTOR is still putting all its money on this stupid story thing. Admittedly, it does have great story, but it forgets that it has such tremendous potential in its group PvE and PvP content. PvP in SWTOR is terrific, and could be so much better with some work, for instance. But f2p only really applies to the solo story part of the game, participating in the other aspects of the game, which really are the aspects that keep a lot of people playing this game and need more love, these aspects of the game basically require a subscription which kills the much needed injection of fresh energy. With SWTOR's f2play, I had expected that subscribing would give you certain perks and advantages -- and admittedly, the free respecs is an example of just that -- but instead it appears subscribing more or less provides you with all the necessities you need to play any part of the game beyond the solo story arcs. It isn't giving you extras, it is giving you essentials.

[thekidpow]

First it was skill bloat now its not enough hotbars.

[NrDLeipe]

Can see that 2 bars are a bit low but its possible to do it with 2 bars, on launch of the game when there was no ui custom, i only used 2 for skills and the 2 on the sides for the rest, so 2 bar can get you to lvl 50.

 

Next thing stop complaining about what you get with f2p everybody could have looked up what it exactly gives you and dont gives you.

YOU knew what you were going to get.

 

If you want full exp of the game sub up or buy coins and if you want a full f2p game go back to GW2

[saremun]

I can live with all the other restrictions but hotbars? Seriously?

 

LOL, selling UI, a fail no other MMO game made, just wrong LOL

[Eillack]

Just what I like to see.... people complaining about what they get with a free game.

 

It's a FREE game. Be happy you have what you have. Want more? PAY FOR IT.

 

/thread

[Scovina]

It sounds too me that you don't really understand f2p,

 

No what you don't really understand is that there is no standard for what free to play really means! Every game does it slightly different and there are many thriving on exactly what they are doing despite the complaints seen on forums. This has been going on ad nauseam in every mmo ever made. There are many games you can't even get as much as what you are given here in the free to play model.

 

Right now SWTOR is using a hybrid model, usually these models are referred to as Pay2Win. If you want to win, you need to pay real money. (Sure, you can play some aspects of the game for free, but anything that involves grouping with other players requires that you pay in order to compete and participate realistically. Showing up to a raid wearing green/blue gear isn't going to work, period. Same for PvP. The hotbar issue is just the first thing players immediately noticed in terms of limitations that will prevent the f2play'er from really being able to participate

 

Pay to win is NOT what is happening here. It isn't a necessity to pay anything ever to play the game. You just wont have access to every aspect and new flash that should be expected. This game allows you to do as little or as much as you want for what I consider a nominal fee. You never hear any thank you's to a company about hey thanks for letting me sink my teeth into this a little. Just whining about how what you get isn't enough. Get off the entitlement train. If anyone is entitled at this point to anything it is the players that support this game with money be it subs or cash shop.

 

participating in the other aspects of the game, which really are the aspects that keep a lot of people playing this game and need more love, these aspects of the game basically require a subscription which kills the much needed injection of fresh energy. With SWTOR's f2play, I had expected that subscribing would give you certain perks and advantages -- and admittedly, the free respecs is an example of just that -- but instead it appears subscribing more or less provides you with all the necessities you need to play any part of the game beyond the solo story arcs. It isn't giving you extras, it is giving you essentials.

 

The elements you describe absolutely do not require a subscription to be had. I disagree that PVP and FP's are essential. I disagree that more than one crew skill is essential. They are nice to have but they are not essential. I could play this game without ever steping foot in a WZ or a FP and still have an MMORPG experience. I don't because I want to do it all but I know some people that have never tried PVP ever because it does not interest them. Guess what they now have the option of not paying for that aspect!

 

$5 just $5 gets you preferred status in this game and fixes many things people are complaining about. You can spend less than $5 on the hotbar unlock which you say is essential. Yes when you have unlimited access to them it makes it better but if Bioware and EA gave you the cow for free why would you ever buy the milk? If everything was unlimited and completely accessible for no money how would they survive to put out content and fix bugs? You have to at some point reach into your pocket and shell out a little money to support the game. Otherwise you are part of the problem not the solution and you have no leg to stand on when you complain.

 

I understand what you are trying to do here and that is saying that by giving players more then EA will get more out of the players but this simply isn't true. There will always be people that will complain non stop about everything and nit pick the whole way. If you give them one thing then they complain that something else is breaking the game as well and it should be given free as well. Guess what the standard of "free to play" has never been anything more than a marketing ploy. We all know this and accept it but when another game goes free to play there are people that ***** incessantly about what the model should look like. I have seen it in just to name a few LOTRO, GW2, STO and now here.

 

With this

 

This is the standard model used by internet companies and products across the board, from Facebook to Angrybirds.

 

you actually argue against yourself. I will tell you why because in Facebook games as well as Angrybirds games they have free models which you can try out. You have what they consider minimal for the game and to get everything you have to pay for content. How has SWTOR done this any different. They don't make it impossible for you to play just harder if you want to experience a taste of everything. That is what games you just stated are doing as well. Giving you a taste of what you could have. If you don't want to sub then there are many ways you can spend even less and still get some of what you want. Things like travel, gear and accessibility like chat and FP/WZ's are restricted. Those restrictions are definitely a industry standard.

 

Let's explore what the bare minimum that has to be given for the game to be truly free to play. I mean in all sense of the word "free" it's impossible for a company to stay in business if it was completely free to play. But they don't say completely free they just say free to play which we have established is vague at best. The model LOTRO uses is almost identical to SWTOR and they are doing very good. As a free player on that game you even only get one character. They do have a few things better go over to the website and compare functionality.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Scovina

[Guancyto]

First it was skill bloat now its not enough hotbars.

 

The two aren't unrelated.

 

If a tank could tank flashpoints effectively with fifteen ability slots without wanting to smash his keyboard, nobody would give a **** that they're charging for hotbars.

 

If a marauder could perform effectively in PvP with twenty ability slots instead of actually -needing- those situational abilities/ability to pass the ball that would get cut from the bars, nobody would give a **** that they're charging for hotbars.

 

A DPS Commando doesn't need them. A DPS commando doesn't care. A knight/warrior does. Setting side the basic principle of "charging for bits of your UI", it is a straight power upgrade (also a big no-no in F2P, but it's also power only on certain classes) to be able to use all their stuff. To characters on which it is a straight power upgrade, it is immensely frustrating to not have it.

 

You can't frustrate people into loyalty for your game. Loyalty is what gets you consistent income. Making people angry at your company (even if they bought it) is going to encourage people who would otherwise pay for a long time to find a game that doesn't make them angry.

 

Why exactly is this considered reasonable?

Edited November 18, 2012 by Guancyto

[Arkerus]

The two aren't unrelated.

 

If a tank could tank flashpoints effectively with fifteen ability slots without wanting to smash his keyboard, nobody would give a **** that they're charging for hotbars.

 

If a marauder could perform effectively in PvP with twenty ability slots instead of actually -needing- those situational abilities/ability to pass the ball that would get cut from the bars, nobody would give a **** that they're charging for hotbars.

 

A DPS Commando doesn't need them. A DPS commando doesn't care. A knight/warrior does. Setting side the basic principle of "charging for bits of your UI", it is a straight power upgrade (also a big no-no in F2P, but it's also power only on certain classes) to be able to use all their stuff. To characters on which it is a straight power upgrade, it is immensely frustrating to not have it.

 

You can't frustrate people into loyalty for your game. Loyalty is what gets you consistent income. Making people angry at your company (even if they bought it) is going to encourage people who would otherwise pay for a long time to find a game that doesn't make them angry.

 

Why exactly is this considered reasonable?

 

I have multiple 50s and I know for a fact that 2 bars are all that is needed for everything between level 1 and level 50. Even tanking and healing...

 

Can this conversation die now?

[Guancyto]

I have multiple 50s and I know for a fact that 2 bars are all that is needed for everything between level 1 and level 50. Even tanking and healing...

 

Can this conversation die now?

 

Hey, me too. What do you know. What classes do you play? My Operative has 35 slots filled without Legacy stuff, discounting the class buff and speeder and orbital strike and medpack and the like I could probably pare that down to about 28. But that's nothing compared to my Guardian.

 

The class that's suffered by far the most ability bloat is the knight/warrior. This has been known (and complained about, forums whee!) since beta. If you haven't played one, you have no idea just how bad it is.

 

From what I'm hearing from the subscribers alting to help the new players and show them the ropes, the most popular class among new people is the knight/warrior.

 

This is not a winning strategy.

 

(Now, if they want to eliminate ability bloat in place of not charging for the UI, I'd be all for it! Kill two birds with one stone! But that's much harder to do.)

Edited November 18, 2012 by Guancyto

[dacentabaal]

A very late posts.. not completely to do with the topic at hand I guess, but better place than any to see if it gets seen...

 

Just been thoroughly going through the UI on my sniper I'm levelling, and I thought "Hmm maybe it would be like my Op and I'd need more than needed to get all abilities on the UI" turns out I was wrong.. the sniper class uses the bare minimum and the cover bar taking up most of the space... but I digress.

 

I was playing around with the UI and I came to the conclusion.. You don't actually get 6 usable hot bars subbed.. you only get 5... You get 5 hot bars to move around freely bars 1-4, and 6.. bar 5 you can't ever move.. its permanently attached under bar 1 the main hot bar.. The only way to access it is to click the scroll key on the far right of the main bar.. now when you need your abilities fast you don't have time to hit the scroll key for another bar and hope you don't double click....and it can't be key bound either.

 

Now in the past I've used it for additional space for RP emotes etc when I'm not in a rush to faf around with my bars as I'm not fighting.. but still saying we have access to 6 freely moved UI bars isn't technically true BW

[Taorus]

1 is enough, two is enough? Enough for what? Lol Why even bother giving us any?

 

I'm not even lvl 50 and can't fit all combat abilities, never mind other skills i need.

 

They you are doing something wrong.

[OddballEasyEight]

A very late posts.. not completely to do with the topic at hand I guess, but better place than any to see if it gets seen...

 

Just been thoroughly going through the UI on my sniper I'm levelling, and I thought "Hmm maybe it would be like my Op and I'd need more than needed to get all abilities on the UI" turns out I was wrong.. the sniper class uses the bare minimum and the cover bar taking up most of the space... but I digress.

 

I was playing around with the UI and I came to the conclusion.. You don't actually get 6 usable hot bars subbed.. you only get 5... You get 5 hot bars to move around freely bars 1-4, and 6.. bar 5 you can't ever move.. its permanently attached under bar 1 the main hot bar.. The only way to access it is to click the scroll key on the far right of the main bar.. now when you need your abilities fast you don't have time to hit the scroll key for another bar and hope you don't double click....and it can't be key bound either.

 

Now in the past I've used it for additional space for RP emotes etc when I'm not in a rush to faf around with my bars as I'm not fighting.. but still saying we have access to 6 freely moved UI bars isn't technically true BW

 

I think you are doing something wrong...

 

In that picture I have QB 1 at the top, then on the left of the map is QB2, to the right of the map is QB3.

Left of QB2 is QB4, right of QB3 is QB5. On top of QB5 is QB6.

 

You need to learn how to use the UI editor better.

[Einobi]

Monetarization of hot bars is just a weak scheme of bringing in revenue. I had like to see Bioware implement the screen into 4 quadrants where f2p will have the upper left and lower right quadrant of screen 'blacked' out while preferred only have to suffer 'blackout' at the upper left. Sub have visibility to all the 4 quadrants.

 

This way Bioware will power itself to the top of the list in terms of earning and income. This will dispel any accusation of EAware not earning money and the game is dying.

[Einobi]

They you are doing something wrong.

 

Bioware is doing wrong. If you don't need that many hotbar slots then why you implement so many abilities?

[VulgarMercurius]

Once again Bioware is making sure that as little amount of players stick around as possible...The Derp is still strong in this one.

 

I can see the pitch to EA now.

 

"I know how to save SWTOR and increase revenue! We will take the game which wasnt good enough to keep the vast majority of players right? So, we are going to take parts of it, some small and some large and we are going to make it so people CANT play/use it. Then we are going to create a cash shop and ask people to PAY, to be able to do it".

 

Its BRILLIANT!

 

Take a bland average game that couldnt survive a subscription model and think a lot of people are going to being willing to pay, to play parts of the game...

 

You are mad because the ENTIRE game with ALL features isn't free?! LMAO "Thanks for the horse, bioware. Here, let me look it in the mouth". Edit: this reminds me of people that come into our auto body and want us to repair 1000s of dollars worth of damage for $100. Well... at least my ignorant customers are willing to pay SOMETHING for our skilled labor.

Edited January 11, 2014 by VulgarMercurius

[Vandicus]

Bioware is doing wrong. If you don't need that many hotbar slots then why you implement so many abilities?

 

First off, a player doesn't need all abilities on their hotbars.

 

Second, true f2p are the only ones restricted to 2 hotbars(outside of a purchase). People who have actually put money into the game at any point in time, are preferred, which means they get 4 hotbars. 4 hotbars is what the entire playerbase had before f2p, so a complaint that it is not enough, doesn't fly. It was enough for subscribers for months on end.

 

True f2pers only need enough to do the 1-50 class stories. That's what the account is designed for.

[Andryah]

They you are doing something wrong.

 

Bioware is doing wrong. If you don't need that many hotbar slots then why you implement so many abilities?

 

Post has been dormant for 14 months, until resurrected for a semi-off-topic segway today.

 

You are both doing something wrong.... not checking the age of the thread before piling on long old and past mattering discussions.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Andryah

[Andryah]

First off, a player doesn't need all abilities on their hotbars.

 

Second, true f2p are the only ones restricted to 2 hotbars(outside of a purchase). People who have actually put money into the game at any point in time, are preferred, which means they get 4 hotbars. 4 hotbars is what the entire playerbase had before f2p, so a complaint that it is not enough, doesn't fly. It was enough for subscribers for months on end.

 

True f2pers only need enough to do the 1-50 class stories. That's what the account is designed for.

 

3rd.... hotbar unlocks are available on the GTN.. and are not expensive either.