Stop guarding the healer in Flash Points!

[WooliestWorm]

Before this subject starts a fist fight.

Of the people who submitted posts- what role are you playing?

Are you the tank? Or are you the healer or a dps.

As a tank I reserve the discretion to guard who I choose to. I often guard the healer, there I said it. Only if I have a serious issue loosing agro do I guard some one else. I some times don't guard any one. The big discussion is to or to not guard the healer. The guard placed on any one is soley the tanks choice. It is also the tanks responsabiltiy to co-ordinate CC's and a kill order to the mobs. I expect the dps to follow the kill order and I also expect the dps to use THEIR de-taunt abilities.

 

I play all three and to be honest I don't really care about guard on any of them. I rarely have aggro issues on my tank, if I pull on my healer it's not because I don't have guard and my dps is a sentinel so I have enough cds to tank for a bit if I feel like it, failing that I have an aggro drop.

[SoonerJBD]

Before this subject starts a fist fight.

Of the people who submitted posts- what role are you playing?

Are you the tank? Or are you the healer or a dps.

As a tank I reserve the discretion to guard who I choose to. I often guard the healer, there I said it. Only if I have a serious issue loosing agro do I guard some one else. I some times don't guard any one. The big discussion is to or to not guard the healer. The guard placed on any one is soley the tanks choice. It is also the tanks responsabiltiy to co-ordinate CC's and a kill order to the mobs. I expect the dps to follow the kill order and I also expect the dps to use THEIR de-taunt abilities.

 

You can do whatever you want. A healer can choose to spam AOE attacks instead of healing. A DPS can choose to face-pull. Purely their choice. But those decisions wouldn't be the best for the team. Neither would your choice to guard the healer unless there were very specific circumstances.

[Spatology]

As a tank, i generally will give guard to dps who are consistently pulling off me. Until i identify this person, i guard the healer. The threat reduction and dmg reduction are not effected by any type of range. The only effects that are effected by range is the pvp exclusive portion of this ability.

 

Healers healing tanks before they have hit everthing in whatever group they pull will give them initial threat. Until the tank hits it with an aoe or taunt it will attack said healer.

 

Anything you have read contrary to these facts is wrong.

[Malkavier]

As I've respecced my Sorc into heals, I only have found two situations during HM FPs (outside of HM LI, but that place is...meh) where I've ever needed or wanted Guard. Both of these situations occur in Kaon.

 

Situation A: Healing at the Cannon. If you're a healer, you will pull threat at times, especially if you are pure Sorc heals and lay down your AoE ground heal. Even if you use your aggro dump ability, you'll still be way, way up on that threat table due to how the mobs spawn in groups. When they spawn, unless your tank nabs them with the Cannon right away, they are coming right for you.

 

DPS in this encounter: Need to pay attention in this fight and keep stragglers (especially the ones that go BOOM when they die), off of the healer. The healer can keep the tank going (and by extension you). Keep your healer going. Thank you from someone who might be healing you at some point.

 

Situation B: The final multi-boss fight in Kaon. At various points, while the tank and dps are focusing on the first boss (and this will also happen when they move to the second), the remaining non-tanked bosses will chase the healer around. I am not sure which of the two it is, but one of them has a knockdown. They WILL knock the healer down and then a mob spawn will occur. What I've noticed, is that unless the tank/dps are on top of their game, not only will those bosses sit and pound on the healer, but every single NPC in that spawn will also go pound on the healer. This is where I basically beg the tank to throw Guard on me BEFORE the encounter starts (Sorcs are squishy, and our bubble drops quick after we get knocked down). That 5% mitigation is useful here. Healing people through it is rather easy as a Sorc who can bubble everyone and throw down the AoE ground heal, provided the tank and dps get on those bosses and peel the adds back so we can recover from the knockdown.

 

Note: On this particular fight, I prefer having a tank with AoE threat abilities. I basically cringe when I get a single-target tank in this FP.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Malkavier

[adelsin]

I've had problems in groups where the other group members get angry at me for Guarding the stronger dps rather then the healer.

 

Absolutely absurd.

[DracJedi]

As I've respecced my Sorc into heals, I only have found two situations during HM FPs (outside of HM LI, but that place is...meh) where I've ever needed or wanted Guard. Both of these situations occur in Kaon.

 

Situation A: Healing at the Cannon. If you're a healer, you will pull threat at times, especially if you are pure Sorc heals and lay down your AoE ground heal. Even if you use your aggro dump ability, you'll still be way, way up on that threat table due to how the mobs spawn in groups. When they spawn, unless your tank nabs them with the Cannon right away, they are coming right for you.

 

DPS in this encounter: Need to pay attention in this fight and keep stragglers (especially the ones that go BOOM when they die), off of the healer. The healer can keep the tank going (and by extension you). Keep your healer going. Thank you from someone who might be healing you at some point.

 

Situation B: The final multi-boss fight in Kaon. At various points, while the tank and dps are focusing on the first boss (and this will also happen when they move to the second), the remaining non-tanked bosses will chase the healer around. I am not sure which of the two it is, but one of them has a knockdown. They WILL knock the healer down and then a mob spawn will occur. What I've noticed, is that unless the tank/dps are on top of their game, not only will those bosses sit and pound on the healer, but every single NPC in that spawn will also go pound on the healer. This is where I basically beg the tank to throw Guard on me BEFORE the encounter starts (Sorcs are squishy, and our bubble drops quick after we get knocked down). That 5% mitigation is useful here. Healing people through it is rather easy as a Sorc who can bubble everyone and throw down the AoE ground heal, provided the tank and dps get on those bosses and peel the adds back so we can recover from the knockdown.

 

Note: On this particular fight, I prefer having a tank with AoE threat abilities. I basically cringe when I get a single-target tank in this FP.

 

Another tactic for the final fight in Kaon is to start the fight on the side balcony. Because the two other bosses are not ranged, they will have to run up to you. At that point, you can jump off the balcony. That should buy the tank and dps enough time to kill the main boss.

[OlosBC]

My favorite tactic on hm kaon last boss: try to kill them all together. Seriously, that fight is a joke.

 

 

Anyway, someone asked about the numbers, so let's lay down a hypothetical scenario.

 

Healing generates threat at 50%, split among all mobs in combat, further modified by talents. (Isn't it like 30% on sorc? Been a while since I looked and skill calc not working right now)

 

So, we' got a standard FP pull, 1 elite, 2 strongs, 2 normals: 5 mobs. Let's say that either the healer is doing a lot of overheal or a ton of damage is going out, and he does 20k healing in the first 10 seconds. that's a total of 10k threat. This gets split 5 ways, so 2k on each mob. Further reduced to 1400/mob by my talent. Literally, my weakest ability, rapid shots will probably pull threat off that healer when it hits for like 800, and that's if I wait 10 seconds to tag a mob, which only happens if I'm being CC'd, and even then, if the DPs go and 2 shot the normals, the healer won't take more than a hit or two.

 

Did a false emp run last night, and on that first pull got the crap chain stunned out of me while both DPs went after the elites, was still able to pick everything up before the healer died. After that pull kindly asked the DPs to focus normals first as the pulls in femp tend to be very spread out, and I don't think the healer took more than a hit or two for the rest of the run, without using any cc ( I usually get bored if I'm tanking anything less than 4 trash mobs at a time)

 

Healer threat is a non-issue unless mobs are not being tagged for whatever reason, and when they aren't being tagged, 25% isn't gonna change it one way or another. Enrage timers are MUCH more of a mechanic in this game than healer threat.

Edited November 2, 2012 by OlosBC

[JediNg]

This. Exponentially this.

 

The threat reduction from guard will not prevent agro being generated to the healer from multiple mobs that have not been pulled by either the tank or DPS. It WILL however make it MUCH easier for the tank and DPS to peel the adds off the healer once they get around to attacking/taunting them. 25% less agro is a lot of threat reduction. Couple that with your healers threat reduction ability and you have a situation that favors your healer being able to focus on healing the group, and not themselves.

 

 

I can not begin to make you understand how many tanks and DPS I am thrown into random FPs with that do not understand this concept.

 

That's an even lower step down. Maybe guardian tanks can chip in, as I am a shadow tank. Tank first. some aoes. CCs. aoe taunt. attacking and/or taunting any stragglers that run toward the healer. if healer is still nearly dying after the above series of events happens then the tank isn't picking up the slack, dps aren't being situationally aware of threat (although that's more of the tank's job anyway), or the healer isn't making it clear that the tank needs to generate more threat. Also if its that big a problem, use CCs. I've only ever had a problem with the first pull in EV and that's it (by virtue of those droids being spaced and hard to generate threat on all of them in an effective way).

 

Edit: assuming reasonably small gear disparity. Also, what OlosBC said.

Edited November 2, 2012 by JediNg

[Darth_Dreselus]

Don't know if anyone has mentioned this, cba reading the whole thread, but guard's PvE effects work beyond 30m. Do not know how far exactly (I would assume 100m as that is the max range you can target anyone anyway). I tested it at 45m.

 

For that reason I guard highest DPS regardless of M/R.

 

There is an argument to be made about guarding healers in very limited circumstances.

 

Bonetrasher = 5% damage reduction, he does not hold threat anyway, does not really matter who do you guard so might as well go for the squishiest player (may not be a healer).

Soa, phase 3 = No DPS should be attacking him (but they will, especially knights/warriors to build resource) and you can easily taunt after the burn so he will only be taking healing aggro, still VERY unlikely that they will out agrro you.

The Dread Guard = The one fight I would actually RECCOMMEND guarding a healer. You want to do as little damage as possible (in fact no damage), no DPS are attacking Kel'Sara or Ciphas and you need to keep your taunt ready for switches. As such it is a good idea to guard healers in this one fight.

 

And obviously there is the big argument, already made in this thread, that it will make it easier to pull off healers once they already have aggro, but I would put that under playstyle. Personally I have never had that problem and only had healers die because I was unaware that a second group was pulled/adds spawned and that is my fault. Guard would not have helped.

 

I'm sure there are more but in general DPS is the right choice.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Darth_Dreselus

[Fornix]

As a tank, I guard whoever I please.

 

If I know the healer is undergeared and would end up in a lot of stress in case I pull a mob pack and some mobs drop for a bit to him? I guard the healer.

 

In case I have a dps which pulls insane amounts of single target threat? I guard that dps.

 

Honestly, it's not too hard to understand. The fact that it overwhelms you, op, is beyond helping I suppose.

[Lord_of_Mu]

As a tank, I guard whoever I please.

 

If I know the healer is undergeared and would end up in a lot of stress in case I pull a mob pack and some mobs drop for a bit to him? I guard the healer.

 

In case I have a dps which pulls insane amounts of single target threat? I guard that dps.

 

Honestly, it's not too hard to understand. The fact that it overwhelms you, op, is beyond helping I suppose.

 

Overwhelms me? Certainly not, disappoints would be more accurate.

 

In your own examples, you state that you guard healers that are undergeared and may have difficulty in their performance as a healer.

 

The first point I'd like to make is that the performance of a geared healer vs the performance of an undergeared healer is relatively the same and depends on the mitigation and avoidance of the tank and the number of mobs attacking said tank. It might take longer to fill your health bar but the amount of healing required and the threat generated would be relatively the same.

 

Threat isn't generated by the number of casts you make, it's based on the amount of damage you deal or amount of health you heal. Over healing also doesn't count towards threat. So the performance of the healer is reduced to efficiency and speed at which they can return you to full health.

 

During my time in WoW, raiding SSC I was sometimes required to play Murloc bait and would use Righteous Fury to add additional threat to my holy spells so I could generate more threat than the rest of the healers in the raid group. A warlock would have to life tap to provide the necessary health to be returned. Over healing does not count towards threat generation, that is, any healing that exceeds 100% of your health will not generate threat. In simple terms, 0 hps heal = 0 threat.

 

Eg, you take 10 damage in a fight, the healer heals you for 50 hp. The healer generated threat for those 10 hps returned and that's it.

 

If you'd like to test this. Get a healer with a tank companion and find a mob. Send your tank into attack the mob once or twice then call him back. Heal yourself, heal with everything you have. Single target healing only as aoe heals will heal your companion and generate threat. Keep healing yourself and you'll notice that so long as you've not taken any damage, your heals will all count as over healing and will generate 0 threat.

 

So, how does this all fit together? To recap, your incoming damage + the groups incoming damage = healer's threat generation, these are not exactly proportionate but relatively close. A tanks threat generation is about 110 to 115% higher by combined talents and tanking stances. The distribution however is different.

 

Healing threat is aoe threat and distributed across all mobs that are presently engaged in combat. The proportionate is dependent on the duration that mob has existed in combat for, fresh mobs, lower threat.

 

Tank threat is a mixture of aoe and single target threat that is determined and distributed exclusively by the person sitting between the chair and the keyboard. That is to say, that you as the tank have the responsibility to distribute your threat across the threat tables of all mobs presently in combat.

 

The common mistake that I can't fathom why so many would make is that guard does not change the responsibilities of the tank when the threat distribution is a key issue. Guarding a healer won't stop mobs that you have not attacked from attacking the healer.

 

If the healer is the sole entity on the mobs threat list and with his or her reduced threat output from talents and guard if you're using, it is effectively tanking the mob.

 

Now, if you have no issue what so ever in intercepting and raising a decent threat ceiling on all mobs in aoe groups. Then it stands to reason that the next likely person you would guard would be the highest dps, this would grant you an additional 25% to your threat ceiling on which ever mob the highest dps is attacking.

 

If you are not able to intercept and raise a decent threat ceiling on all mobs in the aoe groups your tanking or the healer is taking excessive damage. It's quite likely the healer is being attacked because the dps in the group are currently taking more damage than your threat generation and distribution (most common problem), your taking excessive damage due to poor stat allocation or cooldown use, the encounter uses unique mechanics which ignore traditional threat mechanics. The list goes on all the way to, "was afk because fish tank was on fire".

 

The short answer and point of this thread is, attack mobs in flashpoints before they attack the healer, spread your threat generation out across all mobs and you won't need to guard the healer. Unless it's a unique encounter that doesn't follow standard threat mechanics. In which case, do what ever will be most beneficial to the group. Or use guardian leap, if you have it.

[Ognajd]

So the point of the thread is guarding healers creates complacency in tanks?

[Monoth]

This has started to become an annoying trend among pugs and really has to stop. Lets look at what guard does.

 

"While active, the guarded player takes 5% less damage and generates 25% less threat. In addition, so long as you remain within 15 meters of the guarded player, 50% of all incoming damage from enemy players is transfered back to you."

 

To break it down. In PvE: "While active, the guarded player takes 5% less damage and generates 25% less threat. In addition, so long as you remain within 15 meters."

 

In pvp: 50% of all incoming damage from enemy players is transfered back to the tank, so long as you remain within 15 meters

 

At no point does a healer generate enough threat to exceed a tank's threat ceiling on any single target. Nor do healers come remotely close to the threat generation of classes like the Sentinel which lacks any kind of threat reduction ability.

 

Common mistake, I guarded you so you couldn't pull agro. If an add spawns or is agroed. You as the tank are responsible for picking it up. Otherwise it will go after the healer, no amount of guarding will change that. In simple mechanics. New mob Tank = 0 % threat. Healer casts heal and generates 100 points of threat, 100% threat. Add guard, healer generates 75 points of threat. Tank has 0 points of threat. 75 points of threat is still 100% of all threat on mobs threat table.

 

The guard did nothing! And the Sentinel just pulled agro, you should get on that.

 

Stop using guard as an excuse for poor play and start paying attention. Pick up adds and spread your threat around. We're not in pvp so stop guarding me.

 

/end rant.

 

I'm likely going to make a post in the guide forum. Try and nip this in the butt before the stupid overwhelms me.

 

This is true if the Tank is well geared and knows how to keep threat, especially on multiple mobs... What I've noticed as a healer doing FP's is if the tank is not geared good or not that good I usually end up with all the mobs (except the one the tank is concentrating on) pounding the snot out of me because of my healing aggro... Having new tanks guard the healer makes a huge difference....

 

Now when it comes down to HM Operations and a good tank then ya it makes sense to guard the highest DPS'er..

[Journeyer]

The magical secret to playing video games well is to adapt to the situation.

 

Any hard and fast rule for who to guard, when to taunt, how often to /getdown, etc is nonsense. Know what the skills do, use them as needed. If your healer is pulling agro and their threat drop isn't helping, and your group taunt is on cooldown or is saved for a later phase of a fight, you sphere-of-annoyance them. Because your job is to protect them and draw the badguys.

 

So, next time you come across a tank who insists on guarding the healer, don't tell them "Nuuuu, never guard the healz!" Tell them that it's more likely that the DPS will pull threat off of them, and could use the bubble more. Follow it up with a note that the healer will need the guard if the adds can't be picked up in time, and that they might switch guards if it comes to that during the fight. In proper explanation form, they might get why and spread the good word!

[mikebevo]

By all means the tank should guard whomever they want to guard. Never said anything differently, personally I just think it is a waste of an ability if they are guarding me. Still if it gives the tank or the healer more confidences or makes them less panicky then it is worth putting the guard on the healer even though it really isn’t doing anything.

 

However, most wipes in HP FP are due to people not paying attention and the panicking or just giving up altogether when adversity happen. However most times if you simply hit your defensive cooldown (s) and any type of in battle stun (flash grenade) and perhaps a medpac…Healer can stay on their feet while tank and dps fights the elites instead of protecting the healer. Again, if you are a sawbones you can also use escape and get the tank and dps attention when those weak trash mobs start shooting them. Me, I just use flash grenade followed by flyby, but I have been tempted by escape in a few pug groups.

 

I around 20k HP, I am optimized Campaign and BH geared. I know my abilities including how to mitigated damage, so I would much rather the tank put the guard on a dps stealing aggro from them or the person with the lowest HP to reduce their damage. Now if the tank has 12k or 14k HP, then I would rather them not use the guard altogether as I don't want dps or my careless damage transferred to them. I also want dps to kill stuff in the right order because I am going to be busy with the tank and not able to dps the weak adds too.

[Lord_of_Mu]

The magical secret to playing video games well is to adapt to the situation.!

 

I completely agree. A player should always be mobile and adapt to the environment as it changes.

 

Follow it up with a note that the healer will need the guard if the adds can't be picked up in time, and that they might switch guards if it comes to that during the fight. In proper explanation form, they might get why and spread the good word!

 

This is one example that I wouldn't spread around. It's the tank's job to pick up adds or at the very least ask a dps to perform said job. If any adds are ignored, you can bet they'll head straight towards the healer. No amount of threat reduction will change that.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Lord_of_Mu

[toyfanatic]

So the point of the thread is guarding healers creates complacency in tanks?

 

I guess it is........ here is a new idea , don't guard anyone.

[Karkais]

And the real issue is.. if a DPS dies does anyone care? If the healer dies.. well yeah your in trouble.

 

In a HM flashpoint, if dps dies at a bossfight it usually means wipe if the rest cant kill the boss before enrage.

At least used to. Now that everyone is overgeared its not so simple.

 

ps. If I would be a tank, I would observe who takes the most damage and move guard on that person. From what I have observed, it tends to be the dps.

 

pps. If the players are good, they can get away with lots of silly things.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Karkais

[Fracta]

Guarding healers is retarded. That said They are the only one apart form me that is ever going to be attacked by something. They are never going to pull threat, its the fact that they are getting hit at the very very start of the fight, the 5% DR might be useful.

 

Guarding healers is retarded.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Fracta

[Ailie]

Guarding healers is retarded. That said They are the only one apart form me that is ever going to be attacked by something. They are never going to pull threat, its the fact that they are getting hit at the very very start of the fight, the 5% DR might be useful.

 

Guarding healers is retarded.

 

Especially since they are rarely actually in range for it to be active.

[SoonerJBD]

Especially since they are rarely actually in range for it to be active.

 

The threat reduction is always active. The only part of guard that has a range is the 50 percent damage reduction against other players.

[NoFishing]

Healer threat is a non-issue unless mobs are not being tagged for whatever reason, and when they aren't being tagged, 25% isn't gonna change it one way or another. Enrage timers are MUCH more of a mechanic in this game than healer threat.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

/thread