Please address lack of balance between DPS specs

[Monoth]

The people arguing with the math -- or insisting that skill somehow mysteriously makes the math irrelevant (despite the fact that the statistics automatically take skill into account) -- are the same people who don't believe in climate change . . . stragglers not willing to catch up to the modern era.

 

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Unless the people who programmed the DPS Simulator had direct access to Bioware's formulas it's a best guess scenario... Hardly what I would call postive proof....

[CosmicKat]

GW2 is working toward that but they had to pretty much remove the trinity. Problem is no one accounts utility in this game at all when they bring up balance threads. Or fights that don't favor Melee DPS. They look at dummy dps in a vacuum and say 'looks at that!'

 

Also you can pretty much guarantee that perma-stealth burst classes/specs will never be able to compete in PVE DPS races if the game has pvp. I'm not sure it's a solvable problem without PVE specific modifiers.

 

That is the key and always has been the key to making PvP and PvE coexist happily... seperate the powers and their abilities for PvE and PvP. Classes must be mostly generic for PvP to work and PvE (in an MMO) is far better when classes each have obvious strengths and weaknesses. The two games must be treated as seperate games, or you must concentrate on one over the other. Pandering to both satisfies no one.

[Altephor]

Devs said months ago that all DPS specs are intended to be within 5 percent of each other in PvE. This is clearly not the case. Parses and SimC data all show that Sentinels, Marauders, Snipers and Gunslingers parse at the top. The trooper and bounty hunter DPS specs are slightly behind. Shadows/Assasins can parse well with balance/madness spec but infiltration and deception are still far too low on PvE. DPS Sages/Sorcs are roughly 10 percent behind the top specs with Scoundrels not even in the same ballpark to the point that I've actually never seen a DPS Scoundrel in a raid.

 

This has been brought up repeatedly on the forums with no response whatsoever from the developers. There have been two major patches since parse data began showing these disparities with another on the PTS right now. Balance changes have been made for PvP, but there has been no effort to address the disparity between DPS specs in PvE. Is it still the developers' intent to have all DPS specs be within 5 percent of each other in PvE? If so, why aren't changes being made to address the fact that this is clearly not happening?

 

 

As a powertech I can destroy a sniper or marauder on a DPS meter, so.. not sure if serious..

[SoonerJBD]

Seriously, Simcraft does not relate well to real OPs as it pretends its a patchwerk fight and there is no movement or target switching. It's indicative only but not definitive.

 

First off, Simcraft can simulate heavy movement fights, and in those sims there is still a huge disparity between specs. Secondly, the ACTUAL PARSES on ACTUAL BOSS FIGHTS verify the Simcraft data. You have SimC results showing what the optimal DPS is for all the specs and you have thousands of parses verifying the same disparities are present during actual gameplay. What else do you want?

[SoonerJBD]

GW2 is working toward that but they had to pretty much remove the trinity. Problem is no one accounts utility in this game at all when they bring up balance threads. Or fights that don't favor Melee DPS. They look at dummy dps in a vacuum and say 'looks at that!'

 

No one in this thread is talking simply about dummy fights. People have been encourages all along to go look at the parses themselves on the sites where people upload them. I'm curious which fights you think favor ranged DPS so much since Sentinels and Marauders can be found all over the top parses for every boss fight in the game.

 

As for utility, it's been addressed ad nauseum in this thread. Every class has utility skills which mostly balance out. For PvE, Sentinels/Marauders arguably have the best utility in the game with inspiration/bloodlust which makes it even more egregious that they are so far ahead of many other specs in raw DPS.

[SoonerJBD]

As a powertech I can destroy a sniper or marauder on a DPS meter, so.. not sure if serious..

 

Powertechs are also pretty high up the list. The complaint is more for Scoundrels and Sorcs/Sages. And once again "I am leet, I can beat anyone in any spec" is just a bunch of blustering nonsense. We are talking about game-wide averages here, not how ZOMG awesome you are at the game. The disparity between certain specs is confirmed by the parse data and has nothing to do with skill.

[SoonerJBD]

Unless the people who programmed the DPS Simulator had direct access to Bioware's formulas it's a best guess scenario... Hardly what I would call postive proof....

 

Why do people keep acting like this is only based on simulation data? The simulation data shows a disparity, yes, but the thousands of parses uploaded to Torparse and AskMrRobot and other parsing sites all confirm this data. This isn't a theoretical exercise. We have thousands of data points from actual raids that confirm the disparity between certain specs and classes.

[Huobes]

The people arguing with the math -- or insisting that skill somehow mysteriously makes the math irrelevant (despite the fact that the statistics automatically take skill into account) -- are the same people who don't believe in climate change . . . stragglers not willing to catch up to the modern era.

 

Nevertheless, the issue is, as usual, PvP. If you removed PvP from the equation these statistics would be damning and there would need to be balancing. Obviously in PvE raw dps matters tremendously. But in PvP other things need to be factored into consideration, such as:

 

1) Burst vs sustained DPS. In PvE against bosses this distinction is meaningless, but in PvP the ability to unload the majority of your damage in a brief interval can be devastating to your opponents. This is precisely why operatives and scoundrels have such terrible DPS according to the stats right now. They used to have comparable DPS, but it was all front loaded in a quick burst, resulting in players getting killed almost instantly (i.e, before or shortly after stun lock expired). The devs needed to tone them down, but they couldn't change the fact that these classes are designed for burst (at least through certain specs), so all they could do was lower dps which obviously hurt pve performance.

 

2) Range vs melee. There is an inherent advantage to being able to use range in PvP, whereas in PvE this advantage seems rather trivial. If you have sorcerors hitting as hard as mauraders you will have calls for nerf, not in PvE, but in PvP it is almost guaranteed. The reason people are OK with Maurader dps is precisely because there are ways of escaping it, of getting them off of you. It is much harder to escape Sorc dps.

 

3) Healing. In PvE the fact that a sorc has heals and bubbles doesn't matter much if they are dps spec because they aren't there to heal. But in PvP these abilities can be lifesavers and help diversify the players ability to manage each unique encounter. You can't just give healing capable classes the same dps as classes without healing, they tried that. The result was the 3 most complained about classes in the early days of the game were Mercs, Operatives, and Sorcs . . . the three healing classes. All three were nerfed. This was never due to their PvE performance, only to PvP.

 

4) CC. Look at the maurader, he has very little in the way of CC. He has to struggle to get in and stay in melee range. In PvE this isn't an issue really, mobs just stand there and take it. But in PvP no one is going to just stand there, you need to work to stay within melee range. A lot of the time you simply will not be doing dps because you can't. Against a sorc you will be knocked back, stunned, rooted, snared, mezzed, you name it. So naturally the damage you do do needs to be higher once you get into melee range. If you just gave mauraders the same dps (or even a measly amount higher) than other classes, this might be fine in PvE but in PvP it would just mean the class was more effort than it was worth.

 

When the game first came out there was less DPS disparity, and the classes were closer to within this 5% ideal that keeps getting mentioned. But once PvP started class balance issues almost immediately appeared for the reasons I have given. Most of the classes performing poorly in DPS today are the direct result of the balancing measures that were taken in response to the early days of PvP. Nevertheless, I think most people would agree that -- in terms of class balance -- PvP is better today than it was a year ago.

 

Although I agree with the general thesis of your post -- that PvP concerns prevent dps specs from being completely balanced in PvE -- I also have to disagree with a few of your points. First, burst damage is not irrelevant in PvE. There are a few boss encounters with quick dps checks that require good burst, such as both Kephess fights in EC and TFB. Second, ranged/melee balance is very important in PvE as well. While melee dps might be higher in general, there are certain mechanics on several boss encounters that absolutely require ranged dps and good balance/organization in a raid group. The general dynamic currently at play in raid group composition is that you need marauders for their dps and group utility (bloodthirst, predation), but it's a tradeoff since they're harder to keep up and you need ranged dps for certain elements as well.

 

In general, the point that is lost is that it's not as easy as the OP and others might believe to balance the PvE dps output of all of the specs without making a dramatic impact on PvP balance. While I doubt that they have given up entirely on it and might very well be tossing ideas around, the current imbalance is not so egregious as to make it worth taking a big risk in ruining balance in other areas. Honestly, almost all dps specs are fine and welcome in top raiding guilds so long as the players have enough skill to perform well. In my own guild (5/5 TFB 8M HM, 4/5 TFB 16M HM), we have dps sorcs, mercs and juggs parsing right up there with the rest. No one says it should be easier or harder for some specs to attain similar dps numbers. If they have to work a little harder for it, it makes it that much more rewarding to learn fight mechanics and how they apply to your specific spec in most efficient way. Each encounter is different and favors some classes over others. It's one of the beauties of the game, and any guild that doesn't recognize that and eschews good balance/variety in their raid group is missing out.

 

Really, the only spec you never see is operative/scoundrel dps, and that is as much because they are melee as because their dps numbers aren't at the top. But the current state of things is not dire enough to go shaking things up to the degree that some on here are advocating. Be careful what you wish for.

[SoonerJBD]

The OP (me) doesn't assume it is easy to balance DPS specs in PvE without affecting PvP, but I will point out that certain skills and abilities only work in one or the other, so it is certainly possible to do so. There is no reason you can't add effects to skills that only apply against other players or that do not apply to other players. They already do that for several abilities.

 

And once again, in the end it isn't about certain classes not being welcome in raids other than DPS Scoundrels who seriously get the shaft. The point is that it isn't fair or reasonable for some specs to obtain significantly better gear to put out the same DPS as others. It makes a difference when clearing content, and more importantly, this is the devs' own stated goal. Asking them to live up to their own stated targets it perfect reasonable.

[AgamenonAtreides]

I am Commando spec as DPS

 

I always do more DPS than a sentinel or gunslinger, sometimes even take the agro of a Tank...

 

When i do the Heroic of Black Hole, and isnt a tank i normally get the agro over the Sentinels, gunslinger, sages and even other commandos

 

And the only thing i do is Spread Grav Round, high impact bolt and Explosive round

[SoonerJBD]

I am Commando spec as DPS

 

I always do more DPS than a sentinel or gunslinger, sometimes even take the agro of a Tank...

 

When i do the Heroic of Black Hole, and isnt a tank i normally get the agro over the Sentinels, gunslinger, sages and even other commandos

 

And the only thing i do is Spread Grav Round, high impact bolt and Explosive round

 

Congratulations. This is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

[CharleyDanger]

I'm a sorc and I'm always in the top 2 in wz's and consistanly rip Agro from tanks. So no complaints here.

I think a lot of people need to step back and look at their specs. That being said I can't speak for every class

And not everyone needs to l2p but a lot do.

 

Ranged + AoE + Multiple Targets = Top of the chart in WZs. I am not trying to say that you are not a good player. I am just saying the WZ damage is a poor indicator of a players/classes ability to put out high DPS in PvE.

 

All classes have a rotation that can pull aggro from a tank in the right situation. Again, I am not saying you are not good, just saying that it is not a good measure of a player/class. Also, consistently ripping aggro from a tank is bad thing lol. You should try not to do that in the future.

Edited October 29, 2012 by CharleyDanger

[Marak]

To the naysayers/deniers--

 

You still haven't addressed why there are zero operatives/scoundrels anymore. If SimC and torparse and every operative/scoundrel in the game saying things are broken isn't enough-- how do you account for the fact that no one can stand playing these classes anymore?

 

Just go to the respective class forums and see how desolate and abandoned they are comparatively. It's no longer about whining just for the sake of a few slight injustices. It's abandonment due to grotesque imbalance. Operatives back in January/February were WAY more popular than they are today, so don't try to chalk it up to glow-stick envy. The original excitement for these classes was reasonably average/high. Now there is no one left. And you still want to sit here and say "It's fine l2p" without ANY of you actually being an operative or scoundrel, let alone one that can provide any sort of data to prove that we are wrong. You just bury your head in the sand and say "your data is wrong because there is a possibility, somewhere, maybe, that an operative/scoundrel could prove you wrong but they just haven't yet because they are too good to care, or something."

 

Having a class as 1% or less of the population IS game breaking for the people that want to play these classes. This needs fixed and it needs fixed now.

[SoonerJBD]

This has gotten a little off-track, which isn't surprising I guess. Any time you bring up this lack of balance between PvE specs, you have people chime in who try every way possible to ignore the mountains of numbers and other evidence that irrefutably prove the disparity exists. Moving on from that, I'm hoping to reiterate the original purpose of this thread.

 

We know that some DPS specs are not within 5 percent of others as the devs have said they intended. Can we pretty please with sugar on top get someone from Bioware to (1) acknowledge this balance problem exists so we can stop hearing people scream that the world is flat (2) tell us whether this 5 percent goal has been abandoned as a target or not (3) explain why no changes have been made in the recent major patches to fix the balance problem and/or (4) tell us if they have plans to fix some of these problems in an upcoming patch.

 

I'm tired of arguing with people that the world is round. The disparity is there. It goes against what the developers have said their intent is. So what is Bioware going to do about it? People have been asking this question ever since the parsing numbers started showing the imbalance, and the devs have never addressed it.

[justinparneteau]

They fired everyone! How are they suppose to do anything now with the stupid role players asking for bubbles

[Monoth]

To the naysayers/deniers--

 

You still haven't addressed why there are zero operatives/scoundrels anymore. If SimC and torparse and every operative/scoundrel in the game saying things are broken isn't enough-- how do you account for the fact that no one can stand playing these classes anymore?

 

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Maybe for PvE as range dps is more desirable but I've seen lots of Operatives/Scoundrels in Warzones and they do some nasty damage....

[Marak]

Maybe for PvE as range dps is more desirable but I've seen lots of Operatives/Scoundrels in Warzones and they do some nasty damage....

 

Yes this thread is about PvE. And it's not just a ranged vs melee debate. Powertechs, Marauders, and to a lesser extent Juggs and Assassins all do reasonably well (not to say Juggs and Sins couldn't use more buffs, but they aren't hopeless). Operatives are uniquely bad in all aspects of PvE DPS.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Marak

[Monoth]

Why do people keep acting like this is only based on simulation data? The simulation data shows a disparity, yes, but the thousands of parses uploaded to Torparse and AskMrRobot and other parsing sites all confirm this data. This isn't a theoretical exercise. We have thousands of data points from actual raids that confirm the disparity between certain specs and classes.

 

I have no doubt there is some difference between the various dps classes, but a lot of it comes down to players rotations, gear and how there spec'ed, something Parses don't show.... I've taken Sorc DPS'ers into a raid and they do some serious dps, then I can take another Sorc with the same gear and his DPS is way off.... Probably due to poor rotation and force management.... Also something Parses don't show...

 

Bottom line is nobody will be happy unless their specific class is Top Dog on the DPS chart...

[Wraiven]

Wrong on this count. DPS Assassin's/Shadows can spec Madness/Balance to do really good DPS. Infiltration has serious problems in sustained PvE damage though, but as long as each class has one spec that does good dps, then that's good enough.

 

Infiltration and Deception were the two trees I was thinking of. Infiltration is the exact same as deception, which goes back to what I was saying, DPS Assassin/Shadows are at the bottom of the DPS list. They are just as atrocious as the DPS Ops/Scoundrel.

[MariaD]

I'm tired of arguing with people that the world is round. The disparity is there. It goes against what the developers have said their intent is. So what is Bioware going to do about it? People have been asking this question ever since the parsing numbers started showing the imbalance, and the devs have never addressed it.

 

Just for the record, and to bump the thread. I have no doubt the disparity is there. However, I do not judge it to be important. Most guilds will still take competent players of any class to raids, and will not consider the disparity of 10-20 percent "carrying" - just like top guilds don't consider 2-5% disparity "carrying".

 

Still, I am very much interested in seeing what devs think about their goals for balance! Please respond!

[NoFishing]

Scoundrels not even in the same ballpark to the point that I've actually never seen a DPS Scoundrel in a raid.

 

I've seen very very few DPS scoundrels attempt to join pug raids, but haven't run with one in about 6 months, since they get kicked right away.

[Chaori]

How many DPS Scoundrels do you know of that have cleared TFB HM?

 

Well, none.. But I'm from Master D where the pop is so low we'd be lucky to even have a level 50 Scoundrel/Operative DPS still playing :/

[SoonerJBD]

Just for the record, and to bump the thread. I have no doubt the disparity is there. However, I do not judge it to be important. Most guilds will still take competent players of any class to raids, and will not consider the disparity of 10-20 percent "carrying" - just like top guilds don't consider 2-5% disparity "carrying".

 

Still, I am very much interested in seeing what devs think about their goals for balance! Please respond!

 

Really? You think a raiding guild won't consider it "carrying" when they are trying to clear TFB and three of their DPS are pulling 1400-1500 while the third is less than 1200? That's exactly what I would call it.

[SoonerJBD]

I have no doubt there is some difference between the various dps classes, but a lot of it comes down to players rotations, gear and how there spec'ed, something Parses don't show.... I've taken Sorc DPS'ers into a raid and they do some serious dps, then I can take another Sorc with the same gear and his DPS is way off.... Probably due to poor rotation and force management.... Also something Parses don't show...

 

Bottom line is nobody will be happy unless their specific class is Top Dog on the DPS chart...

 

See, this is where the combination of sims and parses is just incontrovertible. The sims take gear skill and rotation problems out of the mix so that you can see the results based on spec alone. And they show 10 percent-plus disparities between some of the specs.

 

The parses reflect this same disparity. We have thousands of data points. It's not an issue of skill or gear. It's an issue of some specs simply being capable of less DPS than others.

 

And again, this isn't a question about whether lower DPS specs can clear content or pull decent DPS. I can pull solid DPS with my Sage and clear TFB HM. The issue is that I have to be in full optimized campaign gear to do this with my Sage when I could do it in Rakata/BH with my Sentinel. That's just not acceptable. Players of one class shouldn't have to min-max their gear to clear content while another class can randomly smash buttons on the keyboard.

[dipstik]

problem with scrapper is we reset the parser whenever we vanish.

 

but in terms of SimC: lightning sorc gets 1925 ish in dread BiS whereas scrapper is 1870 ish. not sure what maraders sim at, but if we take maraders at 5% over sorcs and scrappers as 5% under, then maybe that is the model they are going for. i want to say tht melee dps> ranged because this game hates melee.

 

and to add, i have only seen 2 other op/scoundrel dps in the past 8 months.