CelCawdro Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) Untrue... due to this part of the law: 22-25A-1. Bet or wager defined. For the purposes of this chapter, the term, bet or wager, means to directly or indirectly take, receive, or accept money or any valuable thing with the understanding or agreement that the money or valuable thing will be paid or delivered to a person if the payment or delivery is contingent upon the result of a race, contest, or game or upon the happening of an event not known to be certain. Bet or wager does not include the purchase, sale, or trade of securities or commodities under state or federal law. Source: SL 2000, ch 106, § 1. We, by the fact that we purchase access to the game (our subscription) assign value to everything in the game, therefore it falls well within this subsection of the law. You are guaranteed the commodities stated when you purchase the item, thus voiding your own definition. Edited October 25, 2012 by CelCawdro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redoubti Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I think of the grab bags as those Kinder Eggs that we can't get in the states anymore. Basicly you spend 2 dollars on a average ball of hollow chocalate that has a toy inside. Hell, it makes the kids happy eating subpar candy for a 5 cent toy who am I to complain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 There is a difference between gambling and making a "mystery/blind purchase." You are getting the items that are listed, every time you purchase the item. There is no potential for loss. So a lottery ticket isn't gambling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaemiel Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Yeah, it is very low... Just like in ME3: you never get the weapon and upgrades you want: just useless classes and another uprades for the most **** you have. It is just like you come to the drug store and ask for something as you about to have a heart attack. You give the money and recceive the box containing some vitamines and very expensive cure for cancer. Yet you die form the heart attack... Yes, I know the situation is not that bad, but I'd rather save up or pay additional money to actually BUY, instead of gabling the things you need.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Untrue... due to this part of the law: 22-25A-1. Bet or wager defined. For the purposes of this chapter, the term, bet or wager, means to directly or indirectly take, receive, or accept money or any valuable thing with the understanding or agreement that the money or valuable thing will be paid or delivered to a person if the payment or delivery is contingent upon the result of a race, contest, or game or upon the happening of an event not known to be certain. Bet or wager does not include the purchase, sale, or trade of securities or commodities under state or federal law. Source: SL 2000, ch 106, § 1. We, by the fact that we purchase access to the game (our subscription) assign value to everything in the game, therefore it falls well within this subsection of the law. There is no inheritant value. You own nothing in game. You dont own your characters and you dont own anything those characters have. They are the property of Bioware. Since you cannot own any of their property, any thing you recieve is of no value to you. They have no real life monetary value .... unless you count illegal means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec_Fortescue Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Yeah, it is very low... Just like in ME3: you never get the weapon and upgrades you want: just useless classes and another uprades for the most **** you have. It is just like you come to the drug store and ask for something as you about to have a heart attack. You give the money and recceive the box containing some vitamines and very expensive cure for cancer. Yet you die form the heart attack... Yes, I know the situation is not that bad, but I'd rather save up or pay additional money to actually BUY, instead of gabling the things you need.... Stop comparing it to ME3. The crucial difference is that you can earn enough in-game currency within hour and half in ME3 to buy the most expensive box! I didn't spend a cent for the store there and I got most N7 characters adn weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidacid Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) Untrue... due to this part of the law: 22-25A-1. Bet or wager defined. For the purposes of this chapter, the term, bet or wager, means to directly or indirectly take, receive, or accept money or any valuable thing with the understanding or agreement that the money or valuable thing will be paid or delivered to a person if the payment or delivery is contingent upon the result of a race, contest, or game or upon the happening of an event not known to be certain. Bet or wager does not include the purchase, sale, or trade of securities or commodities under state or federal law. Source: SL 2000, ch 106, § 1. We, by the fact that we purchase access to the game (our subscription) assign value to everything in the game, therefore it falls well within this subsection of the law. actually no... you don't legally own anything here... as per the agreement you signed to get an account you are just paying a fee to use the game... your characters and everything they have are the property of BW meaning even if you "win" something you actually haven't won anything because you don't own it... can't call it gambling when the process at no point can involve you gaining ownership of anything ... for YOU everything in game effectively has no value cause you down own jack again it doesn't matter because even if you DID own it it still wouldn't be gambling... you are paying for a product that has a random chance to include certain items... you are getting exactly what is advertised... same as buying a pack of baseball cards is not gambling even tho they technically have real monetary value... Edited October 25, 2012 by Liquidacid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaemiel Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Stop comparing it to ME3. The crucial difference is that you can earn enough in-game currency within hour and half in ME3 to buy the most expensive box! I didn't spend a cent for the store there and I got most N7 characters adn weapons. That is true. But still it is annoying. In both variants I doubt I will buy packs for real money (above the subs stipend), but still, I really hate such things. I really got enough of blizz random... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 actually no... you don't legally own anything here... as per the agreement you signed to get an account you are just paying a fee to use the game... your characters and everything they have are the property of BW meaning even if you "win" something you actually haven't won anything because you don't own it... can't call it gambling when the process at no point can involve you gaining ownership of anything ... for YOU everything in game effectively has no value cause you down own jack again it doesn't matter because even if you DID own it it still wouldn't be gambling... you are paying for a product that has a random chance to include certain items... you are getting exactly what is advertised... same as buying a pack of baseball cards is not gambling even tho they technically have real monetary value... Actually it's never been tested. The EU recent ruled that legally you owned games (even though what they tried to sell you was a licence for a couple of installs etc. - remember what people try to sell you doesn't make it legal, nor indeed does any random thing in a contract make it legal), so it quite possible they would rule in a similar way with online games when/if it is legally tested. Again though I ask when you by a lottery ticket you are getting a ticket (which is what you buy) that also has a random chance to include access to a lot of cash, so that isn't "gambling" either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avatarless Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I can say now, after trying out the market on the PTS for the last couple of days, that there is nothing in the bags worth wasting money on. There are items in them that you can't get elsewhere in the game but (and this is just my opinion) they are lame items not worth bothering with. You end up mostly with junk like crafting mats and companion gifts you can already get in the game without paying. However, there are other things you will need to spend coins on. Such as unlocking the cap the amount of credits you can hold and expanding your inventory or just being able to send email and use the galactic market. The items in the bag unlock from your character after 4 days but if you don't have email and don't have access to the galactic market AND don't have the cap on your credits unlocked.. your not going to be able to sell them anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElitehunterDS Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Revan gear been datamined, its probably in those same pack, that thing is going to make a killing. At least if it mean content patch and class story will start to come out at a constant speed its better than nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avatarless Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Revan gear been datamined, its probably in those same pack, that thing is going to make a killing. At least if it mean content patch and class story will start to come out at a constant speed its better than nothing. Possibly, but I've spent the 5000 coins they gave us on the PTR over 2 days on the high lvl pack and haven't seen a single one of those items. Just letting folks know you will have tork out a fair bit of cash or just get lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Real world value of electronic items that cannot be directly sold or traded for real revenue is debatable. It would have to be proven that you, in some way, directly or indirectly received something tangible, having obvious real world value and knew that you would receive that item by chance by engaging in gambling activities. I believe the reason why virtual goods get a pass in most places with respect to prosecution under the law is because proving value to a jury would be VERY difficult. I don't think the average joe finds a +4 chaos sword has value in any way, never mind in the real world. Nor do simple electronic numbers, or ALL gambling games, including those on mobile phones and handhelds would be breaking the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidacid Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Actually it's never been tested. The EU recent ruled that legally you owned games (even though what they tried to sell you was a licence for a couple of installs etc. - remember what people try to sell you doesn't make it legal, nor indeed does any random thing in a contract make it legal), so it quite possible they would rule in a similar way with online games when/if it is legally tested. Again though I ask when you by a lottery ticket you are getting a ticket (which is what you buy) that also has a random chance to include access to a lot of cash, so that isn't "gambling" either? not really... the EU ruling was about ownership the right to use copies of a game not entitlement to ongoing service or access to server side information which is owned by someone else... even tho they may rule you own that ToR dick you got and can install it for personal use as many times as you please all that data for your toons is on servers physically owned by BW ... so even if you "own" that copy of the game it is 100 percent worthless when not connected to and receiving service from BW who owns all the server side data, hardware, and licences and lottery would be gambling because you are not purchasing a ticket ... you are putting in a wager of which the ticket is a voucher for... the same as a chip is a voucher for cash in a casino you aren't "buying" chips when you hand over that money... same as a slip at a horse/dog track is not what you are buying it's a receipt for the bet you placed... you are not guaranteed nor are you actually buying anything you are making a wager which you can lose completely... buying a grab bag is not making a wager... you are guaranteed to get exactly what is stated to be available in the bags just like when you buy a pack of baseball cards you are guaranteed to get cards in the pack... now which random ones from the list of things available you get is by chance but no matter you are getting exactly what you are buying and was said would be included tho with the lottery it is fun to note that because it's sometimes a government run program in many places and the profits are used for social services like public schools and whatnot... those places have used those facts to sometimes mark it as a charity or social service and completely avoid all gambling restrictions and laws... tho it is always still legally classified as gambling for tax purposes if you win... so legaly then it both is and isn't gambling at the same time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avatarless Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Something else I've just noticed on the PTR.. most char emotes are locked and can only be unlocked via the packs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanis Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 From what i've seen so far over 80% of drops from them bags are total junk not even worthy of selling on GTN. 3 euro worth item pack containing an ugly speeder recolor, minor crafting mats - that's ridiculous. I don't think anyone will be selling those super rare items on GTN since they'll be more likely to equip the rare stuff themselves. Your wrong --->Selling everything except for the next White Crystal i get^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styxx Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Real world value of electronic items that cannot be directly sold or traded for real revenue is debatable. It would have to be proven that you, in some way, directly or indirectly received something tangible, having obvious real world value and knew that you would receive that item by chance by engaging in gambling activities. I believe the reason why virtual goods get a pass in most places with respect to prosecution under the law is because proving value to a jury would be VERY difficult. I don't think the average joe finds a +4 chaos sword has value in any way, never mind in the real world. Nor do simple electronic numbers, or ALL gambling games, including those on mobile phones and handhelds would be breaking the law. Very nice and dandy, but you still buy with REAL money about 10 lottery tickets. even if virtual, for a chance at the prize. Because you see... gambling is gambling. The act of gambling implies selling for a chance at the prize. The prize is irrelevant in this scenario. If you see a guy selling lottery tickets, that`s gambling. If you see a guy with a gun to its head and one bullet out of 6... that`s still gambling. Until this is debated in Court, however... this is just a nice story. And I don`t think that the whole 650-750k players left in here will... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Very nice and dandy, but you still buy with REAL money about 10 lottery tickets. even if virtual, for a chance at the prize. Because you see... gambling is gambling. The act of gambling implies selling for a chance at the prize. The prize is irrelevant in this scenario. If you see a guy selling lottery tickets, that`s gambling. If you see a guy with a gun to its head and one bullet out of 6... that`s still gambling. Until this is debated in Court, however... this is just a nice story. And I don`t think that the whole 650-750k players left in here will... I cant dispute your final point. All I can say is that a major case has not been brought to court...yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) not really... the EU ruling was about ownership the right to use copies of a game not entitlement to ongoing service or access to server side information which is owned by someone else... even tho they may rule you own that ToR dick you got and can install it for personal use as many times as you please all that data for your toons is on servers physically owned by BW ... so even if you "own" that copy of the game it is 100 percent worthless when not connected to and receiving service from BW who owns all the server side data, hardware, and licences No, it's never been tested (in the EU anyway). You said they owner your toons and everything, where as in reality they own the service by the ownership of you characters has never passed the legal test. As I said companies trying sell and tell you all sorts of things, but that doesn't mean it is legal or that anything in any contract has to stand up, it doesn't, as the EU ruling on games clearly shows (in that case you OWN a copy of said game). So until MMORPG character ownership has been fully tested it's impossible to say. and lottery would be gambling because you are not purchasing a ticket ... you are putting in a wager of which the ticket is a voucher for... the same as a chip is a voucher for cash in a casino you aren't "buying" chips when you hand over that money... same as a slip at a horse/dog track is not what you are buying it's a receipt for the bet you placed... you are not guaranteed nor are you actually buying anything you are making a wager which you can lose completely... buying a grab bag is not making a wager... you are guaranteed to get exactly what is stated to be available in the bags just like when you buy a pack of baseball cards you are guaranteed to get cards in the pack... now which random ones from the list of things available you get is by chance but no matter you are getting exactly what you are buying and was said would be included tho with the lottery it is fun to note that because it's sometimes a government run program in many places and the profits are used for social services like public schools and whatnot... those places have used those facts to sometimes mark it as a charity or social service and completely avoid all gambling restrictions and laws... tho it is always still legally classified as gambling for tax purposes if you win... so legaly then it both is and isn't gambling at the same time No you buy a ticket, that is what you buy, it just happens to have a code on it that may or may not give you access to some cash or other prizes. The reality is this sort of issue is unlicenced gambling, thriving either because of some loop-hole or because the revenue is too small to notice (yet). Edited October 25, 2012 by Goretzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styxx Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I cant dispute your final point. All I can say is that a major case has not been brought to court...yet. Then we will have to see to which court and in which country, or what state, or what "Tax Paradise", or "Gambling State" Because I AM willing to pay money that, having lost a "gambling lawsuit", EA will just withdraw the game from countries that have anti-gambling laws and focus on the ones that don`t, or don`t contradict the ruling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidacid Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) lol calling these grab bags "gambling" is like calling buying a can of mixed nuts gambling... because well you only like the almonds and the mix may or may not contain a random amount of them... it's silly you are paying for a random assortment bag and getting it... you are not placing a wager where you may win the item or lose everything Edited October 25, 2012 by Liquidacid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styxx Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) lol calling these grab bags "gambling" is like calling buying a can of mixed nuts gambling... because well you only like the almonds and the mix may or may not contain a random amount of them... it's silly you are paying for a random assortment bag and getting it... you are not placing a wager where you may win the item or lose everything Slot machines are not all or nothing... yet they are called gambling. Call out EA to give you PRECISE percentages for ALL the possible drops and see for yourself. Do you know what`s funny? They never will. Edited October 25, 2012 by Styxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidacid Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) Slot machines are not all or nothing... yet they are called gambling. Call out EA to give you PRECISE percentages for ALL the possible drops and see for yourself. Do you know what`s funny? They never will. what slot machines are you playing? real slot machines you can lose everything and are not guaranteed to receive anything... thus you are placing a wager which is gambling... not even remotely the same thing as buying a mixed assortment of something like you are doing with a grab bag and BW does not HAVE to release the drop rates... you have absolutely no right to them anymore than Planters has to tell you your chances of getting almonds in a can of bar mix... still doesn't make it gambling Edited October 25, 2012 by Liquidacid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styxx Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) what slot machines are you playing? real slot machines you can lose everything and are not guaranteed to receive anything... thus you are placing a wager which is gambling... not even remotely the same thing as buying a mixed assortment of something like you are doing with a grab bag and BW does not HAVE to release the drop rates... you have absolutely no right to them anymore than Planters has to tell you your chances of getting almonds in a can of bar mix... still doesn't make it gambling OK, we`ll go through this one step at a time. There are slot machines that give moderate payouts, outside the jackpot. So, for each dollar, you COULD make back .8 dollars. In the long run you lose all your money and your chance at the real prize, of the jackpot, is still slim to none. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slot_machine - scroll down to Payout Percentage. Not the best or fool proof link but it`ll do. Now.. about the bags. Say I want a PRECISE armor piece. Say I am that lucky I want the one with the SMALLEST drop rate. I literally need to buy me as many bags for it to drop. Pretty much like you buy slot machine rolls for the jackpot. Whereas in a "normal" model, I pay whatever the item is worth in the Cash Shop and get it - ONE time payment. Now, if you can explain how spending more has any advantage to me, as player... [EDIT]Payout percentage Slot machines are typically programmed to pay out as winnings 82% to 98% of the money that is wagered by players. This is known as the "theoretical payout percentage" or RTP, "return to player." The minimum theoretical payout percentage varies among jurisdictions and is typically established by law or regulation. For example, the minimum payout in Nevada is 75%, in New Jersey, 83%, and in Mississippi 80%. The winning patterns on slot machines – the amounts they pay and the frequencies of those payouts – are carefully selected to yield a certain fraction of the money played to the "house" (the operator of the slot machine), while returning the rest to the players during play So you see... outside LALALand, you know the percentages and they are enforced legally. But as it was shown earlier.. for this to happen you need to have a lawsuit won against someone... and that would only make them withdraw from countries with certain laws... Edited October 25, 2012 by Styxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) what slot machines are you playing? real slot machines you can lose everything and are not guaranteed to receive anything... thus you are placing a wager which is gambling... not even remotely the same thing as buying a mixed assortment of something like you are doing with a grab bag and BW does not HAVE to release the drop rates... you have absolutely no right to them anymore than Planters has to tell you your chances of getting almonds in a can of bar mix... still doesn't make it gambling This is why online gambling is licenced, because you're right without someone overseeing it there is no way to tell what they are doing. Whether some likes or dislikes gambling is fairly moot (although in a game played by kids, perhaps not so much - quite simply gambling should never be offered to minors, it can never be ethical), but unlicenced commercial gambling is just always bad (and they've caught a few companies doing some very shady and/or illegal things). Edited October 25, 2012 by Goretzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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