akabane_k Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 When you have a tremendous communication, class, and gear imbalance in favor of one team, skill becomes irrelevant. Call out it whatever you want, it's a not competition, it's game mastur-bation. It's not any different than using a cheat code or playing a game on easy mode. So if someone decides not to wear proper gear, keyboard turn and only dps, their bad play should be rewarded with winning? A person should not be responsible for their opponents failure to take advantage of mechanics. If you want to play badly, thats fine, but don't complain when you lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverickmatt Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 i call that increasing my chances to win if it is legal, which is exactly what skill does. So yes, it is skill. Sorry if thats a strange concept. Again, I will say.. Please do not post in this discussion if you have nothing constructive to add. What you are describing as it pertains to premades is a very similar thing to Collusion, whereby you seek to disrupt the equilibrium of the market (in this case, regular WZ) and limit open competition. Reference this if you need clarification on how we come to conclusions like the ones mentioned in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasagi Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 So if someone decides not to wear proper gear, keyboard turn and only dps, their bad play should be rewarded with winning? A person should not be responsible for their opponents failure to take advantage of mechanics. If you want to play badly, thats fine, but don't complain when you lose. There's nothing "bad" about not being in a premade. There is nothing "bad" about wearing partisan or levelling gear when you first hit 55. You are not "bad" if you solo queue and happen to get a team with no tanks or heals. When you have a tremendous communication, class, and gear imbalance in favor of one team, skill becomes irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuaRya Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 So if someone decides not to wear proper gear, keyboard turn and only dps, their bad play should be rewarded with winning? A person should not be responsible for their opponents failure to take advantage of mechanics. If you want to play badly, thats fine, but don't complain when you lose. He's not really saying what you are implying. There needs to be an interim place where the players you call bads can learn their chops. . You know like when you were playing this game in the first month of release and the server was mostly comprised of what you now show disdain for.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottomgun Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Worst thing in PvP is when 2 groupd of 4 queue at the same time... sometimes they end up on same team, which is fine, but when they don't they usually decide which side will win and all 8 of them make it happen. It's pretty damn frustrating in Huttball when a team mate that is in same guild as 4 people on other team intentionally throws an interception to allow the enemy (his buddies) score over and over and get an easy win. Even if you get the ball to prevent that, you have 4 people on your team not defending or helping you. PvP is going down the poop chute on this game because of scrubs like that. Some guilds are KNOWN for doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akabane_k Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Again, I will say.. Please do not post in this discussion if you have nothing constructive to add. What you are describing as it pertains to premades is a very similar thing to Collusion, whereby you seek to disrupt the equilibrium of the market (in this case, regular WZ) and limit open competition. Reference this if you need clarification on how we come to conclusions like the ones mentioned in this thread. Win swapping would be collusion, as you are deviating from equilibrium with the understanding that the other side will do it as well. Premading is quality control of your own product in a competitive market. Don't use terms and ideas you don't understand, its insulting to those that actually study them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Worst thing in PvP is when 2 groupd of 4 queue at the same time... sometimes they end up on same team, which is fine, but when they don't they usually decide which side will win and all 8 of them make it happen. It's pretty damn frustrating in Huttball when a team mate that is in same guild as 4 people on other team intentionally throws an interception to allow the enemy (his buddies) score over and over and get an easy win. Even if you get the ball to prevent that, you have 4 people on your team not defending or helping you. PvP is going down the poop chute on this game because of scrubs like that. Some guilds are KNOWN for doing it. This issue is easily resolved by population queuing. I never see 2 premades of the same guild (obviously no way to know if 8 people queue synced otherwise) on POT5. No one is saying this is working as intended, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akabane_k Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 He's not really saying what you are implying. There needs to be an interim place where the players you call bads can learn their chops. . You know like when you were playing this game in the first month of release and the server was mostly comprised of what you now show disdain for.. I learned to play fighting against 50's in pvp gear on my lowbie, im sure they can manage now that they have bolster and brackets and non-RNG gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverickmatt Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Win swapping would be collusion, as you are deviating from equilibrium with the understanding that the other side will do it as well. Premading is quality control of your own product in a competitive market. Don't use terms and ideas you don't understand, its insulting to those that actually study them. What you are describing is not collusion. it is not tipping the equilibrium if both sides are engaging in the same practices. That would be the definition of balance. What you ARE doing is seeking to limit open competition by ensuring that the balance of your team is more suited for the activity at hand. You ARE seeking to disrupt the equilibrium, because ideally "equal" would be 8 random players. By doing otherwise, you are colluding. Do not fool yourself, and do not throw around insults as if you are the end-all authority on the matter. You are far from the most intelligent person in this thread, as evidenced by the fact that you resort to mudslinging when no other point suits your argument. This is not the place for petty arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasagi Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Win swapping would be collusion, as you are deviating from equilibrium with the understanding that the other side will do it as well. Premading is quality control of your own product in a competitive market. Don't use terms and ideas you don't understand, its insulting to those that actually study them. Comparing swtor pvp to real world economics makes no sense. But even if it did...more choices=better, right? The market will regulate itself. Put a solo only queue in. Either: 1. Solo players will get tired of long solo queues and form random 4 mans to enter the group queue; 2. Premade players will get tired of the long group queue and enter the solo queue; 3. Players will quit because the WZ queues are too long in both brackets. Players are already quitting over PvP, so number 3 is not an issue. One thing that needs to be said is: you can't blame the players for exploiting a broken system. They are working with what they are given. The people to blame here are the ones making the decisions at EA/Bioware. By ignoring real game improvements in favor or cartel market items, the in game experience is deteriorating quickly. This whole issue could be fixed with cross server queues and matchmaking, but they won't spend the money to work on that since they can't stick it in a cartel pack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arunas Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Looks like someone is defensive, I guess the truth does hurt. If the evil premades like to farm noobs, why most pvp guilds or people that are good and like pvp transfered to pvp servers to have competition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kovaos Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 By doing otherwise, you are colluding. Do not fool yourself, and do not throw around insults as if you are the end-all authority on the matter. You are far from the most intelligent person in this thread, as evidenced by the fact that you resort to mudslinging when no other point suits your argument. Aaaand boom goes the dynamite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akabane_k Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 What you are describing is not collusion. it is not tipping the equilibrium if both sides are engaging in the same practices. That would be the definition of balance. What you ARE doing is seeking to limit open competition by ensuring that the balance of your team is more suited for the activity at hand. You ARE seeking to disrupt the equilibrium, because ideally "equal" would be 8 random players. By doing otherwise, you are colluding. Do not fool yourself, and do not throw around insults as if you are the end-all authority on the matter. You are far from the most intelligent person in this thread, as evidenced by the fact that you resort to mudslinging when no other point suits your argument. This is not the place for petty arguments. I'll go through this slowly, each team is a firm. The firms product is the team's skill. The one with the better skill wins. Being in a premade will increase the average skill, increasing the quality of the product, aka quality control. Colluding involves two different firms, aka both teams deciding on an outcome inefficient that would be inefficient if they weren't colluding together. Losing as quickly as possible is usually a bad idea, unless you know the other side will do the same the next round and you will then get a quick win. Equilibrium is not every team having the same chance at winning, it is the most skilled team winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kovaos Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 I'll go through this slowly, each team is a firm. The firms product is the team's skill. The one with the better skill wins. Being in a premade will increase the average skill, increasing the quality of the product, aka quality control. Ummm no...but....thanks? Joining a premade doesn't magically give you more skill. Equilibrium is not every team having the same chance at winning, it is the most skilled team winning. Ummm no again. Stop stirring definitions to fit your argument lulz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasagi Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 If the evil premades like to farm noobs, why most pvp guilds or people that are good and like pvp transfered to pvp servers to have competition? Stop being a drama queen. No one called anyone "evil". The reason the pvpers I know are leaving my server is for faster queues, not competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverickmatt Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) I'll go through this slowly, each team is a firm. The firms product is the team's skill. The one with the better skill wins. Being in a premade will increase the average skill, increasing the quality of the product, aka quality control. Colluding involves two different firms, aka both teams deciding on an outcome inefficient that would be inefficient if they weren't colluding together. Losing as quickly as possible is usually a bad idea, unless you know the other side will do the same the next round and you will then get a quick win. Equilibrium is not every team having the same chance at winning, it is the most skilled team winning. Where you are concluding that each team is a firm, I am giving you the fact that the system treats individual players as a "firm". When players "Premade", they are effectively limiting competition by tilting the balance of a random match system. That is collusion. The definition of equilibrium is: The condition of a system in which all competing influences are balanced. Now, given that equilibrium means balance, what is your argument? Edited June 25, 2013 by maverickmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akabane_k Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Ummm no...but....thanks? Joining a premade doesn't magically give you more skill. Ummm no again. Stop stirring definitions to fit your argument lulz. I premade with people that have above average skill, therefore joining a side will increase their skill level on average. And yes thats the definition, if you put out an inferior product, you go out of business. In this case, that means you lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverickmatt Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 I premade with people that have above average skill, therefore joining a side will increase their skill level on average. And yes thats the definition, if you put out an inferior product, you go out of business. In this case, that means you lose. While this is true, it is hardly applicable to our circumstance. If the opponents put out a superior product because they colluded to limit competition and the randomness of the MM system, it is not only morally reprehensible but it is also damaging to the integrity of the game. A duck is a duck, my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 I haven't taken economics for awhile, but last I checked, collusion doesn't work if everyone in the market isn't on the same page. So if there are 8 companies and 4 collude to set prices too high, the other 4 will still price lower and win. In warzones, I can bring the best 4 players on server with a healer, tank, and 2 DPS all in full conqueror and end up with 4 scrub healers in their outdated battlemaster/champion mix. Not sure we're going to win. The point is, a full team together is one thing, having a small portion of your team premade is not an issue because you still have half a team in the dark to your leet strats or attacking different targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasagi Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 I premade with people that have above average skill, therefore joining a side will increase their skill level on average. And yes thats the definition, if you put out an inferior product, you go out of business. In this case, that means you lose. Okay, this analogy is so bad I have to stop you here. You are not producing anything. You are not providing a service of any kind. There is no demand for your "product". There is no "product" to supply to consumers. No one is consuming your "product". You are not going to "go out of business" if you lose a WZ. You have no customers or clients. I am a huge fan of analogies, but come on. This is just gibberish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akabane_k Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Where you are concluding that each team is a firm, I am giving you the fact that the system treats individual players as a "firm". When players "Premade", they are effectively limiting competition by tilting the balance of a random match system. That is collusion. The definition of equilibrium is: The condition of a system in which all competing influences are balanced. Now, given that equilibrium means balance, what is your argument? Its a team game, you win or lose as a team. Why would you consider each player a firm? If each player is a firm, any teamwork is collusion, which is non-sense. And we are referring to equilibrium in economics, which means supply equals demand, and there is zero demand for an inferior product, so your team will always lose if you have lower skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kovaos Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) I premade with people that have above average skill, therefore joining a side will increase their skill level on average. No, that just means you are playing with better players now. Your skill level doesn't change. Actually, you might be bad enough to bring them down a skill level. I'm not saying you are, I'm just saying that's the possibility. Edit: By bringing them down a skill level I mean their collective play skill level. Not their individual skill level. Edited June 25, 2013 by Kovaos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkiestj Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 I won't feed your trolling any more, your faux victimhood is an insult to all real victims and I do them an injustice even letting you continue. Did he post? I didn't noticed because he is on my ignore list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akabane_k Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) Okay, this analogy is so bad I have to stop you here. You are not producing anything. You are not providing a service of any kind. There is no demand for your "product". There is no "product" to supply to consumers. No one is consuming your "product". You are not going to "go out of business" if you lose a WZ. You have no customers or clients. I am a huge fan of analogies, but come on. This is just gibberish. And yet you were the one that started the economic analogy by saying that premades were colluding firms. Edited June 25, 2013 by akabane_k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasagi Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) And yet you were the one that started the economic analogy by saying that premades were colluding firms. I didn't say anything like that. My analogy was gambling...as in you get to handpick 4 of your 5 cards in poker, and the other players have their cards dealt randomly. I didn't use the word collusion once. Edited June 25, 2013 by Vasagi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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