Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[Zohkar]

wait what? i didnt hear you? say it again for me?

 

it doesnt matter if if you form a premade of your own b/c you are worse players?

 

 

yet you think the solution to this is for bioware to tell the better players to take their ball and find another field to play on..... hilarious

 

its taken >300 pages, but someone finally admits to the crux of the issue: bad players QQ about facing good players

 

Pre-mades are telling bad players to form pre-mades of there own if they don't like facing pre-mades, that won't solve the issue that good players rolfstomping in premades vs. bad players still getting rolfstomped weither in solo que or forming their own pre-made of other bad players. Your still at a disadvantage of compensition of team and most people will not go get third party programs to play pvp.

 

SWTOR was not designed as a pvp primary game, but a story driven pve game and because of that their primary content will always be for the pve side first. In the long run no matter what side of the fence people sit on or how many arguements go both ways, Bioware and EA Sports decide the futre of the game and they choose to listen or not listen to the people that comment be it the vast majority or minority. We can only hope that we get some interesting fun from it until most of us go on to something else later down the road.

[DariusCalera]

Let's use a singles dating event.

 

Let's say that there are no rules on who can and cannot attend this event. Let's also say that a good majority of the attendees are opposed to couples attending .

 

Keep in mind that it is not against the Singles Event to be a couple.

 

You're really annoying alot of the attendees by coming as a couple. In a sense, it's actually hurting YOU because those singles will find another event with explicit rules, and you'll be forced to go somewhere that couples are condoned and encouraged.

 

There are some issues with this when you use it as a comparison to PvP WZs.

 

1: There is no proof that the majority of PuGs are against premades.

 

2: WZs are not just a singles event and were never billed as so. A closer comparison, if we are going to keep with your event theme, would be going out to a bar. It is open to everyone, groups or singles, and everyone has a the opportunity to have a good time. Now, those that show up alone my not like seeing groups of people but there is nothing wrong with it nor is there nothing stopping them from forming their own group to go out to the bar except for their own desire to not form a group.

 

The same standards are in place for everyone. People can't really,honestly, begrudge others for doing something that they are quite capable of doing but choose not to.

 

Pre-mades are telling bad players to form pre-mades of there own if they don't like facing pre-mades, that won't solve the issue that good players rolfstomping in premades vs. bad players still getting rolfstomped weither in solo que or forming their own pre-made of other bad players. Your still at a disadvantage of compensition of team and most people will not go get third party programs to play pvp.

 

That won't change if there was a solo only queue either. Bad players will still get stomped by good ones.

 

To think that removing premades will automatically make some of the bad players better is a bad as thinking bolster makes bad players better. It doesn't, no matter how badly they would like to think it does.

Edited June 17, 2013 by DariusCalera

[Kovaos]

its taken >300 pages, but someone finally admits to the crux of the issue: bad players QQ about facing good players

 

Again, the assumption that people who want to solo queuers are bads. This thread is just full of false claims and terrible theories.

 

But for those that do think this you should be in full support of this. Aren't you tired of carrying the bads? Separate the chaff from wheat right?

[DarthRaika]

Lets stop this bad/good argument. Yes there are a lot of bads who are qq'n but there is an argument for matchmaking and/or split q's regardless of player skill.

 

Lets say you could clone 4 players.

 

Now the first four are team A and the 2nd 4 are team B. Team A is a premade team B just got randomly grouped in the matches we are considering.

 

If Team A has better gear they win more often than not.

 

If Team A has better composition they win more often the not.

 

If Team A has voice chat, etc. they win more often than not.

 

Now you could say the reverse is true which I would agree with. However, Team B has only 25% control over any of the above factors (and 0% for voice chat) where team A has 100%.

 

Now consider what happens when Team A uses all 3 of these advantages.

 

One other aspect is Team B has no control over being grouped together. So that adds another element of control to Team A.

 

Now there are many players who are equal in skill to Team A but have real lives and don't want to spend the time to form premades. There are also others who can not spend that time. These players are also less likely to be as geared. And lets be honest. Bolster is great but there is still a HUGE gear gap. I think the gear gap is fine but it is there so don't pretend that it is not.

 

Premade matching is needed because of the above. Sure there are many bad premades (and imo these are the only kind which are fun to play on right now since you can get some competitive matches). But bad premades have control over being bad where pug teams do not.

[maverickmatt]

Again, the assumption that people who want to solo queuers are bads. This thread is just full of false claims and terrible theories.

 

But for those that do think this you should be in full support of this. Aren't you tired of carrying the bads? Separate the chaff from wheat right?

 

Indeed.

 

I'll say again that I am not opposed to premades, however premades have something dedicated to them. Solo queuers do not.

[DariusCalera]

Again, the assumption that people who want to solo queuers are bads. This thread is just full of false claims and terrible theories.

 

That's another assumption because no where, in any of the postings in this thread, did anyone say that solo queuers were bad players. Just that bad players QQ about facing good players. There is a distinct difference between the two.

 

But for those that do think this you should be in full support of this. Aren't you tired of carrying the bads? Separate the chaff from wheat right?

 

No matter what happens, solo only queues, or if it remains the same as now, bads are going to be carried by better players.

[Kovaos]

And? Why do you care who bads play? Let them play against the other bads that way these premades aren't stuck carrying them.

[DariusCalera]

And? Why do you care who bads play? Let them play against the other bads that way these premades aren't stuck carrying them.

 

Then it would fall to the good solo queuers to carry them and they will QQ about getting stomped by other better solo queres when there is none on their team to carry them.

 

Which is exactly what happens now except it's about the premades.

 

You don't see those QQing about premades doing so when it is a premade that allows them to win. I don't think there has ever been a thread where the OP stated that a WZ was too easy because they had a premade on their team or that it was unfair for them to have a premade when the other side didn't.

 

If it is wrong, then it is wrong. It's not wrong when you lose and right when you win. But most aren't going to admit to that because, honestly, they like it when they see a premade on their side.

 

I PuG almost exclusively, I know that by doing so I leave myself open to getting stomped by a premade. I accepted that fact a long time ago and I really don't care because it is the nature of the game. I will also fully admit that I like seeing certain premades on my team because bolster didn't fix noob and I can count on those players to know how to accomplish the goals of the WZ without going spastic and trying to death match out in the middle of no where.

[cashogy_reborn]

Again, the assumption that people who want to solo queuers are bads. This thread is just full of false claims and terrible theories.

 

But for those that do think this you should be in full support of this. Aren't you tired of carrying the bads? Separate the chaff from wheat right?

 

i made absolutely no assumption. i solo queue, and know plenty of players considered "good" that solo queue.

 

i am absolutely tired of carrying bads, but separating the queue only partly solves the problem of removing them from my sight. a much more thorough (and better IMO) solution is for players to take personal responsibility for their performance. if they do badly, figure out what they can personally improve on; not just whine that the other guy clearly had some unfair advantage. or skill based matchmaking, which would also do the trick quite well.

 

if every player tried to correct 1 mistake they make each day, the quality of PvP would drastically improve. instead, the overwhelming majority of folks that PvP in this game want a welfare state: if they lose, its clearly b/c the other guy had an unfair advantage and a) they want that advantage given to them easy mode or b) they want that player nerfed/removed from facing them ever again.

[Vladnar]

I love this thread and yes lets get pugs with pugs and teams against teams.

 

Getting thrashed beyond all hope is the problem here not just losing, coming close. Having fun is not the order of the day in these types of matches and with so few players on each time its just time to keep them separate.

[Kovaos]

i made absolutely no assumption. i solo queue, and know plenty of players considered "good" that solo queue.

 

i am absolutely tired of carrying bads, but separating the queue only partly solves the problem of removing them from my sight. a much more thorough (and better IMO) solution is for players to take personal responsibility for their performance. if they do badly, figure out what they can personally improve on; not just whine that the other guy clearly had some unfair advantage. or skill based matchmaking, which would also do the trick quite well.

 

if every player tried to correct 1 mistake they make each day, the quality of PvP would drastically improve. instead, the overwhelming majority of folks that PvP in this game want a welfare state: if they lose, its clearly b/c the other guy had an unfair advantage and a) they want that advantage given to them easy mode or b) they want that player nerfed/removed from facing them ever again.

 

You did make an assumption by calling out bads. I'm sure you weren't talking about premades so it must have been the puggers. I don't believe the solo queuers are as bad as most make them out to be.

 

I also don't support the solo queue only as I think that will drive up the queue times (unless we get x server queues). I do support pairing 4 man premade against another 4 man premade then using a matchmaking system to fill the other 8 spots.

 

#maxepiphanylevelreached

[Zohkar]

Then it would fall to the good solo queuers to carry them and they will QQ about getting stomped by other better solo queres when there is none on their team to carry them.

 

These matchs I find are the fun matchs because it can go either way. When no one has a major advantage of cordination or compensition its all about skill and people falling back to basics. I know I miss the days when it took 72 people to take down a taget and everyone actually worked together and called out in chat (not voice, because that was no available then).

 

You don't see those QQing about premades doing so when it is a premade that allows them to win. I don't think there has ever been a thread where the OP stated that a WZ was too easy because they had a premade on their team or that it was unfair for them to have a premade when the other side didn't.

 

Actually I have been on pre-made teams that roflstomp pug teams and I refuse to participate in the massacre for free kills. I head back to the node and get my objective points at that time instead of waiting for the enemy to drop down from their start points. I know I mentioned that before, but I don't know what thread it was in.

 

If it is wrong, then it is wrong. It's not wrong when you lose and right when you win. But most aren't going to admit to that because, honestly, they like it when they see a premade on their side.

 

I've seen many premades on my side and I start thinking maybe we have a chance, and then I see who we are facing. Instead of a blow-out if it was a pug team, we still lose but only because once the tide turns its the pre-mades on our side calling out the solo que players about being bad. I personally always call out incoming and what type of class is coming toward me if I'm guarding or toward another one of our nodes if I can see it from my postion. But because I play off times and solo que I am considered "bad" which I am, I admit it because I am a clicker with sever arthitus, have no macros and I use arrow keys instead of WASD to move. But I constantly ask questions and I try everytime I go out and can hit good numbers as a healer.

 

I PuG almost exclusively, I know that by doing so I leave myself open to getting stomped by a premade. I accepted that fact a long time ago and I really don't care because it is the nature of the game. I will also fully admit that I like seeing certain premades on my team because bolster didn't fix noob and I can count on those players to know how to accomplish the goals of the WZ without going spastic and trying to death match out in the middle of no where.

 

I agree with this to a point, upto I know which pre-mades prefer to rolfstomp players once the tide turns and just make the other team rage quit. I refuse to participate in that and focus on objectives then make my epeen and numbers look good. Probally another reason I don't get invited to a roflstomp team.

[Comfterbilly]

You don't see those QQing about premades doing so when it is a premade that allows them to win. I don't think there has ever been a thread where the OP stated that a WZ was too easy because they had a premade on their team or that it was unfair for them to have a premade when the other side didn't.

Actually I have been on pre-made teams that roflstomp pug teams and I refuse to participate in the massacre for free kills. I head back to the node and get my objective points at that time instead of waiting for the enemy to drop down from their start points. I know I mentioned that before, but I don't know what thread it was in..

 

Same. I queue in and I'm like, "Oh wait, I'm ON the pugrolling 4-man who spend the entire game rolling out nasty comments over PVP general chat? Great..." It's like participating in a date rape, no thank you.

 

I mean apparently there are some decent folk on here arguing on the side of the offending teams we're talking about, I just keep wondering if they even understand who they're defending.

 

Maybe the people arguing for premades in this thread really are just people who like to do as well as they can, I don't know.

 

Just to be clear, solo players are complaining about the 4+man premade in ranked gear waxing illiterate in the general chat channel spewing this endless stream of "u mad" running around at double speed, RDPS spamming in circles, don't even give a **** about the game, ought to be playing first person shooters, gamebreaking premades.

 

Sadly there are enough of them they are making this problem for everybody.

[DariusCalera]

These matchs I find are the fun matchs because it can go either way. When no one has a major advantage of cordination or compensition its all about skill and people falling back to basics. I know I miss the days when it took 72 people to take down a taget and everyone actually worked together and called out in chat (not voice, because that was no available then).

 

I think you missed the point I was making about the bads being carried. There are some, seems to be a lot more lately, that refuse to learn the basics of the WZ, refuse to call out incs, and refuse to work with the team in order to accomplish WZ objectives. These are the bads that are being carried and these are the bads that will QQ about facing those that are better.

 

Actually I have been on pre-made teams that roflstomp pug teams and I refuse to participate in the massacre for free kills. I head back to the node and get my objective points at that time instead of waiting for the enemy to drop down from their start points. I know I mentioned that before, but I don't know what thread it was in.

 

I've been on PuGs that have done the same thing so that behavior is not limited to premades.

 

 

I've seen many premades on my side and I start thinking maybe we have a chance, and then I see who we are facing. Instead of a blow-out if it was a pug team, we still lose but only because once the tide turns its the pre-mades on our side calling out the solo que players about being bad. I personally always call out incoming and what type of class is coming toward me if I'm guarding or toward another one of our nodes if I can see it from my postion. But because I play off times and solo que I am considered "bad" which I am, I admit it because I am a clicker with sever arthitus, have no macros and I use arrow keys instead of WASD to move. But I constantly ask questions and I try everytime I go out and can hit good numbers as a healer.

 

I never said all premades were good. As a few have pointed out in this thread bad players forming a premade just guarantees you a 4 bad players on your team. But it was well within their rights to try and form a premade so I would not hold that against them.

 

That wasn't the point I was trying to make though. As I said, I have yet to see a thread in these forums about players QQing about having a premade on their team and winning. If players are going to be willing to QQ about just facing a premade then they need to be willing to do it if the just have one on their team. Simple fact is, they won't QQ about it.

 

Also, if that is how you play, I would never call you a bad. You are trying and that is what counts the most. There are others though that do not try and then complain about losing.

 

 

I agree with this to a point, upto I know which pre-mades prefer to rolfstomp players once the tide turns and just make the other team rage quit. I refuse to participate in that and focus on objectives then make my epeen and numbers look good. Probally another reason I don't get invited to a roflstomp team.

 

Once again those actions are not limited to premades. So when you see things like this occur, blame the players in the premade and not the fact that they formed one. ***hole players form ***hole premades but being in a premade does not magically make you an ***hole.

[Zohkar]

Basically it boils down to this, in that some of us would prefer a change and others don't. Reguardless of how each individual feels about the sitation at hand, in the long run its a decision of the game makers of where pvp goes. We can continue to voice our opinions on the matter for and against the current state of the game but in the end Bioware and their parent company EA make the final decision and we have to live with it. Edited June 17, 2013 by Zohkar

[cashogy_reborn]

You did make an assumption by calling out bads. I'm sure you weren't talking about premades so it must have been the puggers. I don't believe the solo queuers are as bad as most make them out to be.

 

b/c you can read my mind, and know the hidden meaning behind what i post?

 

what i wrote is what i meant: bad players QQ about facing good players. it doesnt matter if they form their own premades or if they solo queue. bads despise losing to better players, and often placate themselves by blaming it on op classes, hacks, or some other insane excuse that removes blame from the bad players. and the overwhelming majority of players in this game are incredibly bad.

 

 

that is the core of this issue.

 

 

i just hope that skill based matchmaking is on the table for 2.4, b/c i am tired of this.

[TonyDragonflame]

b/c you can read my mind, and know the hidden meaning behind what i post?

 

what i wrote is what i meant: bad players QQ about facing good players. it doesnt matter if they form their own premades or if they solo queue. bads despise losing to better players, and often placate themselves by blaming it on op classes, hacks, or some other insane excuse that removes blame from the bad players. and the overwhelming majority of players in this game are incredibly bad.

 

 

that is the core of this issue.

 

 

i just hope that skill based matchmaking is on the table for 2.4, b/c i am tired of this.

 

This is the real reason why most premades dont play ranked wz with seperated premades-only queue.

Edited June 17, 2013 by TonyDragonflame

[Icestar]

i just hope that skill based matchmaking is on the table for 2.4, b/c i am tired of this.

 

They could simply start by having warzones where only solo signups are allowed.

 

Then players cant hide behind a premade and call themselves good when they stomp the pugs

[funkiestj]

i just hope that skill based matchmaking is on the table for 2.4, b/c i am tired of this.

 

Agree! I think even the "I hate premades in regular WZ queue" folks can agree with this. It is also why I get apoplectic when folks ask for another huttball map or other trivial stuff instead of infrastructure improvement.

 

The volume of posts in this thread illustrate that there is a belief that the WZ system has lots of room for improvement.

 

Everyone can agree that: fewer one sided curb stomping matches, more close matches is a good metric to measure improvement, right?

 

There are many viable options for improving the warzone experience. All options involve BW actually spending some resources on improving PvP infrastructure (match scheduling and related features like challenge matches) rather than rolling out new WZ.

 

We have not had any WZ infrastructure changes for over a year (i.e. when preseason RWZ was introduced). Oh well.

[Kovaos]

This is the real reason why most premades dont play ranked wz with seperated premades-only queue.

 

Yes. Roflstomping is fun. I'm not sure if being competitive holds much value in this game though. What's the real reward for doing RWZs?

[cashogy_reborn]

Why. What, solo players should be forced to play the same queue as ranked slummers who are just out out to ruin it for everybody?

 

because that accurately describes every single player that wishes to for a group for reg WZs

[sanchito]

...

 

Actually I have been on pre-made teams that roflstomp pug teams and I refuse to participate in the massacre for free kills. I head back to the node and get my objective points at that time instead of waiting for the enemy to drop down from their start points. I know I mentioned that before, but I don't know what thread it was in....

 

I wish more premades would do this. But instead way too many do all they can do destroy and demoralize the other team as hard as they can.

 

If bioware ends up implementing split queues this will kill pvp in this game and you will have noone but yourself to blame, for swinging your epeen around like 12 year old children with yourl2p crap. Newsflash and mmo needs an influx of new players to thrive and they will naturally not be good at first. You should be interested in making the entry as easy as possible, not roflstomping them in the ground any chance you get

[cycao]

because that accurately describes every single player that wishes to for a group for reg WZs

 

The generalization is strong with that one.

[Comfterbilly]

because that accurately describes every single player that wishes to for a group for reg WZs

 

It accurately describes the ones who are creating enough of a problem that creates the need for solo-only que as a toggle and get it through your thick skull solos would still be able to toggle into your group queue when they too are looking for coattails to ride on.

[Kovaos]

The generalization is strong with that one.

 

I've been using the word assumption, but he thinks I'm reading his mind.