Respect Revan

[MasterMe]

If Revan was so powerful why did Kath Hounds almost kill him when he arrived on Dantooine?

 

Seriously? For the same reason one could get killed fighting a flesh-raider on Tython in TOR. Or for the same reason a clone trooper could kill Darth Maul in Battlefront 2.

[SoonerJBD]

These threads about who would win a fight between two characters from different periods are pointless and stupid. I blame the books for starting this sort of ridiculous one-upsmanship about who is more powerful, and I blame Lucas for perpetuating it in the prequels by coming up with the ridiculous midichloron nonsense and for making these statements about just how powerful Luke et all were. In the original trilogy, Luke was never portrayed as the greatest Jedi ever, and Vader wasn't some unstoppable force who could defeat any lightsaber duelist who ever lived. The lightsaber battles didn't really show either of them as the greatest swordsmen. Palpatine didn't have the most powerful lightning ever that could incinerate a room full of whatever. They were just characters playing out their roles in a story. Palpatine used lightning because he was evil and it was a sci-fi way of torturing Luke.

 

Who would win a battle between Revan and [insert character]? Depends on who is writing the story and what they want to say. That's it. These characters aren't RPG or video game avatars with set stats and level 37 chain lightning abilities. And using the flashpoints in-game to determine relative strength is utter nonsense. I soloed Malgus on my Sage, so either he must be a pansy and Revan would smoke him, or I'm the most powerful blah blah blah.

 

Revan was the most powerful Jedi of his time and the hero of his age. For those who played and enjoyed KOTOR, he was a great character. Trying to paint him as either better or worse than characters from the SWTOR era or other periods depicted in the books is just silly.

[SoonerJBD]

What happened with Luke and Mara Jade is a perfect example to why Light-Siders can't Love.

 

 

When she died, he went out on a rage mode with Lumiya(If I remember correctly). Do you hear me? RAGE MODE!

 

Thats why PJO don't practice Love because losing it could turn you to the Dark-Side.

 

Luke isn't fully Light-Sided, when he gets ANGRY he sometimes will use a Dark-Side Ability. Samething with Kyle Katarn. But they will never use them at the same time. You can't be angry and Peaceful at the same time!

 

The entire message of the original trilogy was the love can save the day. Luke had attachments to his friends and sister. He resisted the effort to use them to turn him to the dark side, and it was his love for his father that turned Anakin back and defeated Palpatine in the end. The "no emotion" approach of the Jedi was proven wrong by Luke. The no emotion approach was also shown to be futile by the prequels. Jedi can suppress emotion, but they are not without emotion. You can't expect people to not love. If the Jedi had understood this and taught ways to keep emotions like love from leading to the dark side rather than pretending people can avoid emotion altogether, Anakin might never have fallen.

[TalonVII]

The entire message of the original trilogy was the love can save the day. Luke had attachments to his friends and sister. He resisted the effort to use them to turn him to the dark side, and it was his love for his father that turned Anakin back and defeated Palpatine in the end. The "no emotion" approach of the Jedi was proven wrong by Luke. The no emotion approach was also shown to be futile by the prequels. Jedi can suppress emotion, but they are not without emotion. You can't expect people to not love. If the Jedi had understood this and taught ways to keep emotions like love from leading to the dark side rather than pretending people can avoid emotion altogether, Anakin might never have fallen.

 

DING DING DING! That was the part with the jedi i never got. Instead of supressing emotion, how bout control emotion.

 

Jolee Bindo said it best. "Love can damn you, love can save you" In the cannon version of KOTOR it was the love between Revan and Bastilla that brought Bastilla back from the dark side and saved the day.

 

I look at the force this way and yes I am going to open this can of worms. There is no light and dark side when it comes to the force itself. The force is simply that...the force. The light and dark is in the BEINGS THEMSELVES. The force merely echos that and amplifies that which is inside the person.

 

The whole lightside only uses telekinetic powers while the dark side chokes and other things, that was something George Lucas put into the movies and it stuck.

 

Still, the whole debate on who is stronger, I feel is a moot point. Hell biggest example Boba Fett fought Vader to a stand still, but got tossed into the sarlac pit by a blind Han Solo! Come on guys stop with the who is more powerful.

[BrandonSM]

DING DING DING! That was the part with the jedi i never got. Instead of supressing emotion, how bout control emotion.

 

Jolee Bindo said it best. "Love can damn you, love can save you" In the cannon version of KOTOR it was the love between Revan and Bastilla that brought Bastilla back from the dark side and saved the day.

 

I look at the force this way and yes I am going to open this can of worms. There is no light and dark side when it comes to the force itself. The force is simply that...the force. The light and dark is in the BEINGS THEMSELVES. The force merely echos that and amplifies that which is inside the person.

 

The whole lightside only uses telekinetic powers while the dark side chokes and other things, that was something George Lucas put into the movies and it stuck.

 

Still, the whole debate on who is stronger, I feel is a moot point. Hell biggest example Boba Fett fought Vader to a stand still, but got tossed into the sarlac pit by a blind Han Solo! Come on guys stop with the who is more powerful.

 

Yes but the Prequel Jedi understood that, but they also understood the lost of a loved one can turn you dark.

[Rayla_Felana]

Would people please stop calling Revan a Jedi or a Sith for that matter, he hasn't been a Jedi since before he splintered off and went to war, he was never a Sith because there were varying complexities to how he became Darth Revan, simply put, not wilfully at all, but through the Emperor, when he was freed of his mental choke hold, he actually believed he'd done such through his own accord.

 

Revan is Revan, not a Jedi and not a Sith, regardless of titles.

[Rayla_Felana]

Yes but the Prequel Jedi understood that, but they also understood the lost of a loved one can turn you dark.

 

I find it funny that people bring up why no attachments is so 'stupid' especially the Saga, then ignore the entire reason for why it all went pro-Sith in the first place, Anakin's attachments leading him to the Dark Side.

[SoonerJBD]

I find it funny that people bring up why no attachments is so 'stupid' especially the Saga, then ignore the entire reason for why it all went pro-Sith in the first place, Anakin's attachments leading him to the Dark Side.

 

But the lesson of the movies taken as a whole is that it isn't the attachments that cause someone to turn. It is the way a person deals with their emotions. Luke could control his emotions and used them to prevail over the dark side. He would not have defeated the Emperor if not for his attachments. If the Jedi were trained to understand and control their emotions rather than deny them, you'd have a lot less Jedi falling to the dark side. Emotion is part of what makes us human. Expecting people not to feel those emotions is absolutely unrealistic. It's like expecting a dog not to bark.

[MasterMe]

But the lesson of the movies taken as a whole is that it isn't the attachments that cause someone to turn. It is the way a person deals with their emotions. Luke could control his emotions and used them to prevail over the dark side. He would not have defeated the Emperor if not for his attachments. If the Jedi were trained to understand and control their emotions rather than deny them, you'd have a lot less Jedi falling to the dark side. Emotion is part of what makes us human. Expecting people not to feel those emotions is absolutely unrealistic. It's like expecting a dog not to bark.

 

Right, emotion is part of what makes us human. But in Lucas's galaxy, things are different.

 

After some thought, I would say that it is impossible to use both sides of the force. Because one relies on emotion, the other rejects it. But this doesn't meant that there isn't a entirely different force philosophy. Whoever alluded to Jolee Bindo brought forth a excellent point: love can save you, but if you handle it poorly, it can damn you. Simple yet beautiful words.

 

As for what the past few previous posts regarding the comparison of Jedi and Sith that have never fought, you're right and I agree with you. All I've been trying to say is that Revan is in the same ball park as the men I named. I've also argued, like you've said, that there is no way for people to indefinately say that Bane would beat Revan. They never fought so we'll never know. The only sure victors in any fight are Luke and Sidious, and this is because Lucas said so.

[SoonerJBD]

Right, emotion is part of what makes us human. But in Lucas's galaxy, things are different.

No, Lucas' galaxy is not different, not when it comes to people and emotion. And the reason is basic story telling. The reason the original trilogy resonated so much with people and why the prequels did not was this basic concept. The audience can only connect with characters that convey humanity, even if the characters are not human. Think about Pixar's Wall-E or the various beloved animated animal characters. We need characters who are like us in some way. Through emotion even if not appearance. The characters in the OT were like us. They had emotions. Luke was a small town kid who wanted to get away from the family farm and see the world (or galaxy in his case). The scene where he is looking at the double sunset on Tatooine with John Williams' score in the background is so iconic because it conveys emotion with no words. When the only family he knows is murdered by the Empire, we can empathize. Luke is the protagonist and we experience the galaxy through him. He is emotional throughout the original trilogy and the central reason we care about all the main characters is the mutual friendship they share. Han, Luke, Leia, Chewy and the rest cared for each other. That's why we were rooting so hard for them.

 

The reason the characters in the prequels were so flat was because they didn't take this approach. Who is the protagonist of Phantom Menace? It's not Obi-wan. He's barely in half the movie. Is it Anakin? Qui-gon? Anakin is a snot-nosed kid who no one over the age of 10 can identify with. Qui-gon is some emotionless monk. We don't connect with him. He has no real personality. Obi-wan, Anakin and Padme seem to fill the protagonist role interchangeably in the next two movies. They are rarely allowed to express real emotion, and when they do, it comes across in the form of romantic schlock between Anakin and Padme that is utterly ridiculous or Anakin's whining sessions. The only real moment I cared about the characters in the prequels was in Episode 3 when Obi-wan is struggling with having to kill Anakin, Anakin tells him he hates him, and Obi wan says "You were my brother, Anakin. I loved you." It was maybe the best line in the whole prequel trilogy and made us care for once about the characters precisely because they DID show emotion. Hell, even the droids get emotional in Star Wars.

 

Jedi aren't robots. They have emotions. Obi-wan had an attachment to Anakin. Luke had attachments. Anakin had attachments. The only time Star Wars has failed to connect with its audience is when Lucas has tried to present characters that truly didn't show emotion or showed it poorly. We can't connect to that. We can connect with characters who are emotional beings that have to overcome the base and negative emotions we all experience to avoid becoming the enemy. This was what Return of the Jedi was all about. Luke had to control his emotions, not deny that they existed.

 

The prequel-era approach that has also been forwarded in the EU quite often totally misses the boat here. "There is no emotion" is utter nonsense. Without emotion, what's the point? The lesson is controlling your emotions, not denying them or suppressing them. If the prequel-era Jedi order had understood this, Anakin might have learned to deal with his emotions in some way other than slaughtering children. If the KOTOR/SWTOR-era Jedi understood this, maybe you wouldn't have had scores of Jedi turning traitor and murdering their former allies.

[Temeluchus]

Would people please stop calling Revan a Jedi or a Sith for that matter, he hasn't been a Jedi since before he splintered off and went to war, he was never a Sith because there were varying complexities to how he became Darth Revan, simply put, not wilfully at all, but through the Emperor, when he was freed of his mental choke hold, he actually believed he'd done such through his own accord.

 

Revan is Revan, not a Jedi and not a Sith, regardless of titles.

 

Whoa,whoa,whoa, wait what? The LS ending of KOTOR is canon so isn't Revan redeemed and later goes on to become a Jedi Master, impregnate Bastila and then goes off to find the Sith Empire?

 

I never considered Revan a true Sith Lord in my understanding of them, but I was under the impression that he had become a Jedi again before leaving.

[Wolfninjajedi]

No, Lucas' galaxy is not different, not when it comes to people and emotion. And the reason is basic story telling. The reason the original trilogy resonated so much with people and why the prequels did not was this basic concept. The audience can only connect with characters that convey humanity, even if the characters are not human. Think about Pixar's Wall-E or the various beloved animated animal characters. We need characters who are like us in some way. Through emotion even if not appearance. The characters in the OT were like us. They had emotions. Luke was a small town kid who wanted to get away from the family farm and see the world (or galaxy in his case). The scene where he is looking at the double sunset on Tatooine with John Williams' score in the background is so iconic because it conveys emotion with no words. When the only family he knows is murdered by the Empire, we can empathize. Luke is the protagonist and we experience the galaxy through him. He is emotional throughout the original trilogy and the central reason we care about all the main characters is the mutual friendship they share. Han, Luke, Leia, Chewy and the rest cared for each other. That's why we were rooting so hard for them.

 

The reason the characters in the prequels were so flat was because they didn't take this approach. Who is the protagonist of Phantom Menace? It's not Obi-wan. He's barely in half the movie. Is it Anakin? Qui-gon? Anakin is a snot-nosed kid who no one over the age of 10 can identify with. Qui-gon is some emotionless monk. We don't connect with him. He has no real personality. Obi-wan, Anakin and Padme seem to fill the protagonist role interchangeably in the next two movies. They are rarely allowed to express real emotion, and when they do, it comes across in the form of romantic schlock between Anakin and Padme that is utterly ridiculous or Anakin's whining sessions. The only real moment I cared about the characters in the prequels was in Episode 3 when Obi-wan is struggling with having to kill Anakin, Anakin tells him he hates him, and Obi wan says "You were my brother, Anakin. I loved you." It was maybe the best line in the whole prequel trilogy and made us care for once about the characters precisely because they DID show emotion. Hell, even the droids get emotional in Star Wars.

 

Jedi aren't robots. They have emotions. Obi-wan had an attachment to Anakin. Luke had attachments. Anakin had attachments. The only time Star Wars has failed to connect with its audience is when Lucas has tried to present characters that truly didn't show emotion or showed it poorly. We can't connect to that. We can connect with characters who are emotional beings that have to overcome the base and negative emotions we all experience to avoid becoming the enemy. This was what Return of the Jedi was all about. Luke had to control his emotions, not deny that they existed.

 

The prequel-era approach that has also been forwarded in the EU quite often totally misses the boat here. "There is no emotion" is utter nonsense. Without emotion, what's the point? The lesson is controlling your emotions, not denying them or suppressing them. If the prequel-era Jedi order had understood this, Anakin might have learned to deal with his emotions in some way other than slaughtering children. If the KOTOR/SWTOR-era Jedi understood this, maybe you wouldn't have had scores of Jedi turning traitor and murdering their former allies.

 

When did the PT jedi ever say they denyed their emotions? The only thing closest to that, which isn't really saying it is

 

"Be mindful of your feelings."

 

Besides....if emotion was really denied in the PT, then Mace, Yoda, and Obi-Wan failed at being jedi because they all felt emotion.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

When did the PT jedi ever say they denyed their emotions? The only thing closest to that, which isn't really saying it is

 

"Be mindful of your feelings."

 

Besides....if emotion was really denied in the PT, then Mace, Yoda, and Obi-Wan failed at being jedi because they all felt emotion.

 

Especially Mace Windu. Mace Windu was always on the line between Light and Dark. Emotion was a very important part to his Vaapad form.

[TalonVII]

Especially Mace Windu. Mace Windu was always on the line between Light and Dark. Emotion was a very important part to his Vaapad form.

 

But look at anakin. He was basically told "let go of all feelings and attachment[and all will be better]" Basically what he got told by Yoda.

 

All it did, was drive him further and further towards the dark side. Instead of just saying "just let it all go and be a non-feeling entity" should of let them have families and just teach them how to deal with love and how not to let it be twisted.

 

If he'd been instructed to do that, allowed to love padme openly without fear of being found out and removed for what he'd been born to do, he probably would of not fallen to the Dark Side and the visions of Padme dying probably would not of come to pass since he MADE them happen by going to the dark side and causing all that happened.

[BrandonSM]

But look at anakin. He was basically told "let go of all feelings and attachment[and all will be better]" Basically what he got told by Yoda.

 

All it did, was drive him further and further towards the dark side. Instead of just saying "just let it all go and be a non-feeling entity" should of let them have families and just teach them how to deal with love and how not to let it be twisted.

 

If he'd been instructed to do that, allowed to love padme openly without fear of being found out and removed for what he'd been born to do, he probably would of not fallen to the Dark Side and the visions of Padme dying probably would not of come to pass since he MADE them happen by going to the dark side and causing all that happened.

 

Thats because Anakin had a huge amount of feelings. And he was the Chosen One. And he had the visions of Padme dying pre-darkside..

[Rayla_Felana]

Whoa,whoa,whoa, wait what? The LS ending of KOTOR is canon so isn't Revan redeemed and later goes on to become a Jedi Master, impregnate Bastila and then goes off to find the Sith Empire?

 

I never considered Revan a true Sith Lord in my understanding of them, but I was under the impression that he had become a Jedi again before leaving.

 

Light Side=/=Jedi, he is given the rank of Jedi Master and leaves, because the Jedi Order unofficially kicked him out because of his teachings and the things he'd done, they knew if they did it officially and made it public knowledge they'd only ever be scorned for it and more Jedi would leave because they follow Revan so dearly.

[Aurbere]

But look at anakin. He was basically told "let go of all feelings and attachment[and all will be better]" Basically what he got told by Yoda.

 

All it did, was drive him further and further towards the dark side. Instead of just saying "just let it all go and be a non-feeling entity" should of let them have families and just teach them how to deal with love and how not to let it be twisted.

 

If he'd been instructed to do that, allowed to love padme openly without fear of being found out and removed for what he'd been born to do, he probably would of not fallen to the Dark Side and the visions of Padme dying probably would not of come to pass since he MADE them happen by going to the dark side and causing all that happened.

 

He never said give up your emotions. Far from it. Watch the scene again. Anakin was distressed over the thought of losing Padme. Yoda said to let go of everything you fear to lose. Those are the exact words. This is evident in the line of the Jedi Code "There is no death. Only the Force". Yoda told him that death is natural and that Anakin should not be upset or to mourn for her passing. Death is a natural part of life and the Jedi, as followers of the Light Side (all things natural), accept death whenever it comes. Had Anakin accepted the fact that Padme could die (like you said, his actions to stop her death caused it) then she wouldn't have died.

[BrandonSM]

Light Side=/=Jedi, he is given the rank of Jedi Master and leaves, because the Jedi Order unofficially kicked him out because of his teachings and the things he'd done, they knew if they did it officially and made it public knowledge they'd only ever be scorned for it and more Jedi would leave because they follow Revan so dearly.

 

This is true. They hated him but the Republic demanded him to be put on the Council. Which I don't understand why to this day..

[TalonVII]

This is true. They hated him but the Republic demanded him to be put on the Council. Which I don't understand why to this day..

 

Better the unknown you can watch than the unknown running around where you don't know where he is

[MasterMe]

Wow, way off topic people.

 

But I think you guys may be missing the point. Before the NJO, the Jedi discouraged emotion, believing it a distraction from focus or a temptation to the dark side. Whether or not their fears were justified, this is what they believed. When it comes to during and after the NJO, I wouldn't know. I've got next to zero knowledge of that era.

 

And the 1st line of the Jedi Code does not mean that they think there's no emotion, it means that they think that the less emotion you have as a Jedi, the better.

[MasterMe]

This is true. They hated him but the Republic demanded him to be put on the Council. Which I don't understand why to this day..

 

I wouldn't say that they hated him. I just don't think that they fully trusted him, and they certainly wanted him to keep quiet about his unique force beliefs. But no, I don't think they hated him (with the exception of Atris).

[RDeanOU]

He never said give up your emotions. Far from it. Watch the scene again. Anakin was distressed over the thought of losing Padme. Yoda said to let go of everything you fear to lose. Those are the exact words. This is evident in the line of the Jedi Code "There is no death. Only the Force". Yoda told him that death is natural and that Anakin should not be upset or to mourn for her passing. Death is a natural part of life and the Jedi, as followers of the Light Side (all things natural), accept death whenever it comes. Had Anakin accepted the fact that Padme could die (like you said, his actions to stop her death caused it) then she wouldn't have died.

 

It isn't just that scene though. The Jedi of that era did not allow attachments of any kind. Love was something to be avoided for a Jedi. The Jedi do not understand that love is redemptive and positive. You see it in the OT as well. In ROTJ Luke converses with Obi Wan's force ghost just after Yoda dies. Luke tells him that he can't kill his own father and Obi Wan responds, "Then the Emperor has already won." It never even occurs to Obi Wan that Luke's love for his father could be a positive thing that might be a strength.

 

The galaxy was plunged into darkness because the Jedi rejected attachment. Anakin was forced to keep his love for Padme a secret and then Palpatine was able to manipulate him. The Jedi Council's insistence that Jedi not love and get married had horrible consequences.

 

The galaxy was redeemed because of Luke's redemptive love for his father. He saw a way where other Jedi could not b/c Luke did not have the same foolish notions about attachment. The Jedi council was wrong and Luke's redemption of his father proves it.

[BrandonSM]

Wow, way off topic people.

 

But I think you guys may be missing the point. Before the NJO, the Jedi discouraged emotion, believing it a distraction from focus or a temptation to the dark side. Whether or not their fears were justified, this is what they believed. When it comes to during and after the NJO, I wouldn't know. I've got next to zero knowledge of that era.

 

And the 1st line of the Jedi Code does not mean that they think there's no emotion, it means that they think that the less emotion you have as a Jedi, the better.

 

There is no Emotion

 

First line of Jedi Code, seems pretty simple and obvious that they mean, No Emotion..

[Aurbere]

It isn't just that scene though. The Jedi of that era did not allow attachments of any kind. Love was something to be avoided for a Jedi. The Jedi do not understand that love is redemptive and positive. You see it in the OT as well. In ROTJ Luke converses with Obi Wan's force ghost just after Yoda dies. Luke tells him that he can't kill his own father and Obi Wan responds, "Then the Emperor has already won." It never even occurs to Obi Wan that Luke's love for his father could be a positive thing that might be a strength.

 

The galaxy was plunged into darkness because the Jedi rejected attachment. Anakin was forced to keep his love for Padme a secret and then Palpatine was able to manipulate him. The Jedi Council's insistence that Jedi not love and get married had horrible consequences.

 

The galaxy was redeemed because of Luke's redemptive love for his father. He saw a way where other Jedi could not b/c Luke did not have the same foolish notions about attachment. The Jedi council was wrong and Luke's redemption of his father proves it.

 

Love is a double edged sword. It can save you, but also condemn you. The Jedi 'fear' the latter. Powerful emotions lead to the Dark Side, but love is a special case. It can not only save people, but also destroy lives. This is shown perfectly in episodes 3 and 6. Love destroyed Anakin, but later saved Darth Vader. But it's a special kind of love. Jedi understand that emotions like love can hinder rational thinking, the thinking required to save lives. We saw Anakin put the needs of his wife before the needs of others. A Jedi can't do that. A Jedi must do what is right for the many, not what is right for those they love.

 

The Council understands this, but they do not forbid emotion entirely. Many Jedi have emotion. Emotions like happiness and sadness are natural emotions that Jedi feel on a regular basis. Even Master Yoda feels emotion. It isn't emotion that the Jedi forbid, it is emotions that lead to the Dark Side. Fear, anger and love. Fear and anger for obvious reasons, but love is differen as I have detailed in the previous paragraph.

[SoonerJBD]

Love is a double edged sword. It can save you, but also condemn you. The Jedi 'fear' the latter. Powerful emotions lead to the Dark Side, but love is a special case. It can not only save people, but also destroy lives. This is shown perfectly in episodes 3 and 6. Love destroyed Anakin, but later saved Darth Vader. But it's a special kind of love. Jedi understand that emotions like love can hinder rational thinking, the thinking required to save lives. We saw Anakin put the needs of his wife before the needs of others. A Jedi can't do that. A Jedi must do what is right for the many, not what is right for those they love.

 

The Council understands this, but they do not forbid emotion entirely. Many Jedi have emotion. Emotions like happiness and sadness are natural emotions that Jedi feel on a regular basis. Even Master Yoda feels emotion. It isn't emotion that the Jedi forbid, it is emotions that lead to the Dark Side. Fear, anger and love. Fear and anger for obvious reasons, but love is differen as I have detailed in the previous paragraph.

 

The point that was being made is that the policy of disallowing attachments and kicking Jedi out of the order for falling in love (a natural and unavoidable emotion) was stupid and that all six of the movies prove this. It is one of the main themes. The Jedi force Anakin to hide his relationship with Padme, allowing him to be corrupted. If they had just taught him to better control his emotions and deal with attachments instead of pretending they can be avoided, he never would have fallen. And in the OT, Luke proves that love is more powerful than even the Emperor. His love for his father leads directly to the Emperor's defeat.

 

In short, the avoiding attachments policy leads directly to Anakin's fall and Palpatine taking over the galaxy, all but destroying the Jedi for good. Luke embracing attachments to both his friends and his father saves the galaxy.