PvP Healer Imbalance Concern...

[LordXayd]

I've been PvPing on my sorcerer for a good while now. Fully Augmented WH, working on the elite weaponry, etc etc. I'd say I'm top heals 75 or 80% of the time. I've got a pretty good rotation. I've figured out how to move and use LoS blockers. I keep those shields up all the time. I primarily heal, only attacking to help a teammate finish someone off before they get healed back into a threat, or to throw a quick CC.

 

And yet, there's this operative that traditionally heals for 25% more than I do. I can't get any better equipment. I feel confident in my casting order and technique. So I've come down to wondering if it's a game imbalance.

 

Looking at the operative, I see they have an in-combat stealth and regular stealth, just like an assassin. So I'm thinking he's beating me in part because he's simply not dying as much via *poof*ing out of a gank session. And consequently not having to waste valuable heal time running back. That and the fact that he's wearing medium while I'm in light, though I presume he doesnt have a shield which should roughly equal out his armor advantage.

 

IMHO, in-combat stealth and feign death are the two most powerful abilities in an mmo, Consequently, I've seen them traditionally only given to hybrid classes, not specialists (plate tanks, healers, single target nukers). And yet, BW has given a healer an powerful PvP escape. So I'm thinking this ability is the reason.

 

Now dont get me wrong, he is very good. But he also rarely dies. And I'm thinking that window where I'm running back is what's killing my numbers. So I'd like to ask what you guys think about this. I'm sure there'll be any number of trolls that tell me I don't know how to play my class, that I should just shut up and reroll or quit.

 

If you're one of those, temper yourself with the knowledge I'm not wasting your time with this post. I am interested in hearing a valid counter, like how gimped ops are in other areas that the sorc makes up for. Just remember that the primary job of a healer is to heal. So if youre going to say that my Extricate makes up for it, it doesn't. My shield (which keeps me up longer to continue healing) makes up for the armor difference. What else is there?

[unixbomber]

I've been PvPing on my sorcerer for a good while now. Fully Augmented WH,

 

Stock WH or mods and enhancements swapped out?

[Kophar]

In PvP it might be the reasons that you point out, aye. But operatives in PvP have been since patch 1.2 the best healers around in PvP. Havent played my sorcerer in a while in PvP but i think your reasoning make sense.

In PvE tho, thats a completelly different story and Sorcerers Healers have been the best healers around since launch.

In terms of PvE all classes are pretty much well balanced in TPS/DPS/HPS.

PvP is also about survivability and operatives there beat you but not only opers vs sorcs/mercs but also other classes vs other classes. Thats the problem when you make an MMO thats both centered in PvP/PvE end content game with the same trees.

TOR has the most well balanced classes ive seen for PvE, in PvP it has its issues in class balance but thats a problem affecting every MMO outhere that uses same trees for both PvE and PvP, im afraid.

Thats my 2 cents anyway.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Kophar

[Ssfbistimg]

how can it be an imbalance if you are saying that theres one op healer who out heals you. If you said every op healer out heals you then maybe its an imbalance. sounds to me he's just better then you. with my hybrid sorc healer I out heal many op healers. Edited September 29, 2012 by Ssfbistimg

[LordXayd]

how can it be an imbalance if you are saying that theres one op healer who out heals you. If you said every op healer out heals you then maybe its an imbalance. sounds to me he's just better then you. with my hybrid sorc healer I out heal many op healers.

 

If every op healer outhealed me, then it would be me, not a class thing. I expect to beat par/subpar skilled and subgeared ops as experience counts for quite a bit. But if I'm equally geared and feel Im equally skilled to another player using a different class, and they are beating me by a significant margin consistently, then there's some mechanic that's the problem. Honestly, it's just this one guy. I agree its odd that only 1 op can realiably beat me if its a class imbalance situation, but I do only play at one time of the day, same time as him. Maybe the other superior ops are playing in a different slot.

[vimm]

Operatives have a much better AoE heal for PvP, as it is not stationary. It's great for farming healing and pretending you're good (:

[LordXayd]

The endline heal in the sorcerer heal skill tree is an AoE HoT (Revivification). Wasn't that once an AoE instant, later nerfed into a Heal over Time?

[Kophar]

The endline heal in the sorcerer heal skill tree is an AoE HoT (Revivification). Wasn't that once an AoE instant, later nerfed into a Heal over Time?

 

Nope. never. It allways was like it is now.

[BlackSpin]

What I imagine that you're missing is that Sorcs/Ops play different roles. It could be that he's constantly rolling HOTs on everyone (Like he should be.) These HOTS wont heal anyone for anything substantial, or save anyone who's receiving point-blank damage, but do add up over time. Your job is to keep people out of the downward spiral and save lives that would otherwise lost, down a man, and running back from the spawn or waiting for the door. His job is to keep everyone topped off with less burst heals (energy runs out quick spaming kolto injection.)

 

Would you rather be down a man, and lose, or do a little less healing and win? The age-old controversy between utility and dps/hps. Sorcs sure do have a lot of utility... a little less with 1.4, but definitely more than an Operative. Remember that when you're knocking someone off a huttball ledge, or into a fire; or speeding to the next node/door; or taking 0 damage while you're bubble is up... etc.

Edited September 29, 2012 by BlackSpin

[jsoulpersonas]

I've often considered rerolling op bc I believe that I'll be better on it than my sorc . One question, does static barrier add to heals done? I feel like it doesn't and If that's the case that's why sorc ls are always lower than ops in hps

[crunchbarry]

good healing operatives are one of the hardest classes/specs to kill.

[Yiffinator]

What I imagine that you're missing is that Sorcs/Ops play different roles. It could be that he's constantly rolling HOTs on everyone (Like he should be.) These HOTS wont heal anyone for anything substantial, or save anyone who's receiving point-blank damage, but do add up over time. Your job is to keep people out of the downward spiral and save lives that would otherwise lost, down a man, and running back from the spawn or waiting for the door. His job is to keep everyone topped off with less burst heals (energy runs out quick spaming kolto injection.)

 

Would you rather be down a man, and lose, or do a little less healing and win? The age-old controversy between utility and dps/hps. Sorcs sure do have a lot of utility... a little less with 1.4, but definitely more than an Operative. Remember that when you're knocking someone off a huttball ledge, or into a fire; or speeding to the next node/door; or taking 0 damage while you're bubble is up... etc.

 

You make some valid points there, but one quality remains. They practically have bulletproof survivability. A dead sage saves no lives; wins no games. Their worse case scenario they vanish, our worse case scenario we die.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Yiffinator

[DarthSabreth]

My main is an Healer OP, in PVP pound for pound we excell around pvp healing. the reasons are we are highly mobile, we can stealth up to a fight between 2 players and spam heals with out the othe player seeing us comming.

 

also our AOE heals are on the move, we can keep hots on us and ROFL as the other player esp mele trys to burn us down where as stationary healers sorc heals they dont have that luxury. I do not know / can speak for PVE healing as i have been doing pvp with that toon since lvl 10 and lvled it up doing nothing but pvp with it.

 

pre 1.2 we were not that desired because our AOE heals were not that powerfull but we adapted with our stealth heals and that in itself was a good thing. A good Ops healer if he / she has to drop a casted heal will always drop the smaller one if hes being attacked meaning it will be interupted, as soon as the interupt happens we will drop our larger heal.

 

I dont know what else to tell you OP, but from my perspective its basically like comparing apples and oranges, sorc heals are awesome esp if your team is together and can free cast. Ops are just more mobile and can get into the thick of the fight better than sorcs. but it does not mean were better at healing in pvp, just that we can get to where we are needed better = unnoticed.

 

i hope this helps

[pyradius]

I've been PvPing on my sorcerer for a good while now. Fully Augmented WH, working on the elite weaponry, etc etc. I'd say I'm top heals 75 or 80% of the time. I've got a pretty good rotation. I've figured out how to move and use LoS blockers. I keep those shields up all the time. I primarily heal, only attacking to help a teammate finish someone off before they get healed back into a threat, or to throw a quick CC.

 

And yet, there's this operative that traditionally heals for 25% more than I do. I can't get any better equipment. I feel confident in my casting order and technique. So I've come down to wondering if it's a game imbalance.

 

Looking at the operative, I see they have an in-combat stealth and regular stealth, just like an assassin. So I'm thinking he's beating me in part because he's simply not dying as much via *poof*ing out of a gank session. And consequently not having to waste valuable heal time running back. That and the fact that he's wearing medium while I'm in light, though I presume he doesnt have a shield which should roughly equal out his armor advantage.

 

IMHO, in-combat stealth and feign death are the two most powerful abilities in an mmo, Consequently, I've seen them traditionally only given to hybrid classes, not specialists (plate tanks, healers, single target nukers). And yet, BW has given a healer an powerful PvP escape. So I'm thinking this ability is the reason.

 

Now dont get me wrong, he is very good. But he also rarely dies. And I'm thinking that window where I'm running back is what's killing my numbers. So I'd like to ask what you guys think about this. I'm sure there'll be any number of trolls that tell me I don't know how to play my class, that I should just shut up and reroll or quit.

 

If you're one of those, temper yourself with the knowledge I'm not wasting your time with this post. I am interested in hearing a valid counter, like how gimped ops are in other areas that the sorc makes up for. Just remember that the primary job of a healer is to heal. So if youre going to say that my Extricate makes up for it, it doesn't. My shield (which keeps me up longer to continue healing) makes up for the armor difference. What else is there?

 

You should be able to tell if it's due to deaths. Take a look at dmg dealt to you/him, number of deaths, etc.

[Graziell]

*SNIP* But he also rarely dies. *SNIP*

 

There is your reason. Cover, a more powerful cleanse on mediocre cd, stealth and hots+instant free heal below 30% make them a hard target.

I had 5 matches on my sawbones yesterday and died in none. All thos chargers have to run up to a scoundrel/op where as with sage they can just leap and do their lolsmash. People figured that you, or sorc/sages in generell, are just an easier target (which is not so true since 1.4).

On my seer sage I usually output a lot when people stay within the aoe heal.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Graziell

[Ashyra]

It stands to reason that there is an imbalance now, considering how significantly sage healing changed since 1.2 towards AoE heavy healing and away from single target healing. Notice how the biggest heal, Deliverance, takes half a second longer to cast at 3 seconds than the big heal of the other two healing classes by default. This used to be offset by receiving halved cast time from Conveyance for Deliverance, but no longer since 1.2. Notice also how this heal heals for less by default, than the equivalent heal of the other two healing classes.

 

Arguing that there are some kind of healing roles is misleading, since the official statement was that all those 1.2 changes were to bring healers closer together, but they clearly only brought healers further apart, as seen from several metrics that were collected on the healer forum and from the very notion of there being distinguishable healing roles for healers now.

 

I'm afraid PvP healing sages may be at a disadvantage by design even without considering how often people tend to move or be moved out of the overperforming AoE heal in PvP.

[PloGreen]

Things are better for healing sages now in survival terms though. I imagine it will take some people a while to adjust to the changes, having an extra instant self heal helps heal spec a lot, and a lot of sage healers are sacrificing full heal spec and the aoe for hybrid heals anyway to get the bubble stun and better force resources.

 

As for the op giving out more than you - did you swap out mods on your gear? Are you fully optimized? Possibly hes just an awesome healer and also ops healer are just great healers, they survive well as has been stated. Sage healers lost the extra quick heal on deliverance post 1.2 and were hard to use fully to their potential, simply because they died easier before now. They would just get focused (as you are aware).

 

Now they don't die as easy, I expect people will start seeing sage healers differently.

[SpaniardInfinity]

Arguing that there are some kind of healing roles is misleading, since the official statement was that all those 1.2 changes were to bring healers closer together, but they clearly only brought healers further apart, as seen from several metrics that were collected on the healer forum and from the very notion of there being distinguishable healing roles for healers now.

 

I'm afraid PvP healing sages may be at a disadvantage by design even without considering how often people tend to move or be moved out of the overperforming AoE heal in PvP.

 

Thus far, I think it is quite clear that there are healing roles. Prior to playing this game, I played alot of Team Fortress 2 and have always loved finding games where each role (heal/tank/DPS) is further broken down into its own unique place on the team. But while they all have their own niche, they can all perform other roles to the same overall effectiveness -- or at least that's the jist of what I got from that dev comment. But that, I think, is a conversation in and of itself.

 

As for Sages being disadvantaged in PvP, I need to disagree with you. Now, I will begin by saying that I do not play a Sage, but that I have played so many hours with the best Sages in our guild that I feel confident in this: Sages are the healing glass cannon. They lack survival cooldowns and rely on your ability to kite and juke interrupts. If you watch the scoreboard, you should notice Sages commonly have 1) the most deaths of the healers; 2) the least effective HP of the healers (damage taken/number of deaths); and 3) the highest healing numbers. They have a huge number of tools at their disposal for their job and are the best, hands down, group and AoE healer in the game (there is a difference between the two). And interestingly, Salvation, while is the undisputed best AoE heal in the game, it has its downsides. Namely, that it is static so people can walk out of it or be knocked/pull out by enemies. It's also not always practical to cast on a single person, where as the other healer AoEs are more flexible in this way.

 

The other healers most clealy have their own strengths and weaknesses. It's apparent by just watching the way the classes play and perform (especially in different situations). Personally, I hope the healing niches remain untouched a going forward. I love having a class which requires a unique playstyle compared to other classes in its role. That makes it interesting, fun, and challenging. But with that said, those strengths/weaknesses should not be so severe that they keep any class from performing competitively across all content with the necessary skill/gear.

[LordXayd]

Would you rather be down a man, and lose, or do a little less healing and win? The age-old controversy between utility and dps/hps. Sorcs sure do have a lot of utility... a little less with 1.4, but definitely more than an Operative. Remember that when you're knocking someone off a huttball ledge, or into a fire; or speeding to the next node/door; or taking 0 damage while you're bubble is up... etc.

 

Mainly what it is, is that I'm always looking to improve my numbers. And seeing somebody consistently beating me out motivates me to continue refining. I know I'll always get better with more practice, but Im pretty sure I'm in the levelled off part of the learning curve. And with the difference being so big still, I had to assume it was simply imbalance. But I didnt want to scream about falling skies. I just want to understand. Even with everything I've read, inquisitor is my favorite. I dont care to reroll.

 

In another game, I intentionally rerolled to the currently favored healer and AA'd/Equipped them accordingly. I just murdered all healers numerically with limited experience with the class. Yes it was fun, but I wasn't motivated to try hard and become an exceptional example that defies imbalance limitations. It also wasnt my favorite healing class, and I've always felt you should play what you like, not the flavor of the month.

 

Now I have a better idea of what I'm working with.

[Ergecrs]

What is your bonus healing at Op ?

[LordXayd]

I've often considered rerolling op bc I believe that I'll be better on it than my sorc . One question, does static barrier add to heals done? I feel like it doesn't and If that's the case that's why sorc ls are always lower than ops in hps

 

This is a damn fine question, and one I've been wondering about. With the amount of Barrier'ing that I do, I'd be willing to bet that I'd have consistently equal numbers to him if...

 

/ SB heals are not currently reflected in the WZ window...

/ and are corrected to do so.

 

HOWEVER, before everyone jumps onto to the YEAH! bandwagon, consider this...

EQ2 has 3 kinds of healers.

 

1. Plate wearing Reactive healers: They throw a heal proactively that has a set number of charges. When the group member is hit, a charge is consumed.(instant reaction). Healer's purpose is to prevent the health of the groupmate from dropping below 100%.
   
2. Chain wearing Warding healers: They also throw a heal proactively, but for a set amount. It gets consumed accordingly when the groupmate is hit (after mitigation/resistence has been taken into account), for however many hits it takes to fully consume the total amount of the ward. Healer's purpose is to prevent the health of the groupmate from dropping below 100%.
   
3. Leather wearing Direct/HOT healers: They throw heals as needed, attempting to keep a constant rotation of HoTs and high amount directs. Healer's purpose is to rescue a dying groupmate while one of the other two healers gets back into position. But spike dmg is a huge problem for this heal class as a human cannot react or cast as fast as a computer algorithm.
   

 

/ Originally, it went like this: Dmg first went through reactives, then through wards, then finally direct heals. Because spike dmg can kill a tank faster than a direct healer can react and cast, leather healers were encouraged to constantly rotate heals even though the tank is at 100%. Else they be blamed for wiping the raid for not doing their job. The result was that direct healers received very little numerical credit as their heals were constantly wasted. Eventually, SOE fixed this by giving the 2nd and 3rd tier healers (shamans and druids) heal credit for everything they threw, even if it wasn't being used. And that was the only way to make it truely fair.

 

And that may be the problem with them giving us credit for Static Barrier preventative heals (effectively it's a ward). Because theoretically, they come first and so other people's heals are wasted. But it's not the same. SB is one ability. It's not like I've got a whole line of stackable SB's that I can use to hog all the heal credit. I'm not a warder. And spike dmg hasn't been so much of a problem here. There's plenty of dmg to heal.

 

Sorry about the long explanation. I felt it was necessary to explain the situation.

Edited September 29, 2012 by LordXayd

[FourTwent]

Each class has it's strengths and weaknesses. Healing wise, yours happens to be AOE healing. Theirs happens to be single target heals on the move. That's just how it is, play to your strengths

[Vaeranus]

I don't really see an imbalance. I'm top heals about 85% of the time. The times I'm not are when I'm at one of the areas not being attacked as heavily. I actually dumped my AoE heal in favor of other things that help my survivability, and found I do much better healing because I am on the battlefield more (Static Barrier buffs, Electric Bindings, etc are what I traded off for). Sitting on the sidelines and waiting to get back in can take precious seconds and heals away.

 

I look at it more in terms of the quality of my heals - how many deaths did my team got. I don't even pay attention to the healing stat because someone can just spam AoE, come out higher, but be a much more ineffective healer. Having a better bubble is going to require me to heal less, keeping my Force at max and not really having to ever use Consumption, and allowing me to react better in a more timely manner. I typically heal anywhere between 275k and 400k, although with the new self-heal, I've been hitting 500k without the AoE.

[Ergecrs]

I don't really see an imbalance. I'm top heals about 85% of the time. The times I'm not are when I'm at one of the areas not being attacked as heavily. I actually dumped my AoE heal in favor of other things that help my survivability, and found I do much better healing because I am on the battlefield more (Static Barrier buffs, Electric Bindings, etc are what I traded off for). Sitting on the sidelines and waiting to get back in can take precious seconds and heals away.

 

I look at it more in terms of the quality of my heals - how many deaths did my team got. I don't even pay attention to the healing stat because someone can just spam AoE, come out higher, but be a much more ineffective healer. Having a better bubble is going to require me to heal less, keeping my Force at max and not really having to ever use Consumption, and allowing me to react better in a more timely manner. I typically heal anywhere between 275k and 400k, although with the new self-heal, I've been hitting 500k without the AoE.

 

One of my first matches with the new heal was 715k but I am fully specd with the aoe and with the new sprint mechanics I have no problem with survivablity.

[Larry_Dallas]

If every op healer outhealed me, then it would be me, not a class thing. I expect to beat par/subpar skilled and subgeared ops as experience counts for quite a bit. But if I'm equally geared and feel Im equally skilled to another player using a different class, and they are beating me by a significant margin consistently, then there's some mechanic that's the problem. Honestly, it's just this one guy. I agree its odd that only 1 op can realiably beat me if its a class imbalance situation, but I do only play at one time of the day, same time as him. Maybe the other superior ops are playing in a different slot.

 

Ops can do a couple things to produce higher numbers than sorcs

 

1) aoe heal more useful. it moves with the players it hits

2) they've got a passive, refreshable HoT. It's tough to keep track of, but they can be healing 3-5 targets simultaneously for (conservatively) 1k per tick, while actively burst healing another one

3) they have little down-time. Few classes can solo them if they're on the ball with purges, cooldowns, cover, ccs and stuns (though more can now than could on tuesday). And, as I mentioned, if they can juggle it, they're still healing other targets while dealing with focusers, whereas you're not.

 

Mind you, the only one of these things I'd call 'easy' to do is #1, so the guy in question is probably just good.