Hybrid Tax in SWTOR.

[warultima]

In your opinion does it exist?

 

Judging by the current status of Sorc/Merc/Ops it really leads me to think hybrid tax certainly exist (enev tho when the game was released DEV denied this speculation).

 

Now if the hybrid tax is indeed there, why does it feel like Tank capable hybrids are a lot less "taxed" compare to the healer hybrids? e.g PT/Sin/Jug.

[cycao]

Maybe because there is no such thing as a PvP tank. It only makes sense to go hybrid for the three tanks and the majority of them use DPS gear since there is no point for defenses stats for the most part.

[warultima]

Maybe because there is no such thing as a PvP tank. It only makes sense to go hybrid for the three tanks and the majority of them use DPS gear since there is no point for defenses stats for the most part.

 

Hybrid tax as in for example...

As in when the hybrid capable ACs choose to spec fully into DPS (hence being taxed to purposely reduce their effectiveness).

 

e.g Full DPS Operative vs Full DPS Sorc vs PYROTECH POWERTECH

[warultima]

Troopers / Bounty Hunters have to switch cells to be effective on either side of the hybrid which takes time to switch, but hybridding in itself already gimps both trees so it's clunky as all hell as well as being gimped.

 

Hybrid darkness sin tanks like a champ and can still get 5k in 1 hit medal easily in WH gear.

They always stay in dark charge not only they are not clunky they are one of the most mobile and high bursting DPS "tank" in game.

 

Why is DPS Sorc, Operative, Merc so neglected in rWZ.

 

When Jugs can MEGA SMASH for 30k+ total damage in 1 move while offtank with their defense CDs, Shadow tank can do their happy 8000+ damage force lightning that also heals them and/or 5k chain shock with tons of utilities, and PT can go pyro and be dps burst monster.

 

Now look at Sorc/Operative/Merc no matter how they spec their DPS its subpar im comparison and its really not hard to see the humongus difference

Edited September 7, 2012 by warultima

[DakoHawk]

Half the people in here don't really get what hybrid tax is. Even after that one guy spelled it out. Edited September 7, 2012 by DakoHawk

[warultima]

Half the people in here don't really get what hybrid tax is. Even after that one guy spelled it out.

 

I was starting to think about that too.

I thought I explained what hybrid tax is via examples...

So let me try again...

 

Hybrid tax means any class thats capable of spec into anything else PLUS DPS role is being charged with a "tax" which make them automatically weaker than the true DPS.

 

e.g Marauders and Snipers are "pure DPS" pure DPS cannot spec into anything other than DPS so they do not receive a hybrid tax that purposely nerf their damage/burst, everything else are some kind of "hybrid capable" AC where you can choose to spec as heal/dps or tank/dps.

 

In a game where hybrid tax exists the "Pure DPS" classes will usually always be on top of the board when it comes to DPS/Burst, whereas the hybrids are weaker dps wise and have other utilities to make up for the weaker dps capability.

 

SWTOR when it was released DEV officially stated SWTOR has no hybrid tax (its a WoW balancing concept). I raise the question how come all the "healer capable" ACs are innately weaker than other Pure DPS as well as all the "tank capable" ACs.

Edited September 7, 2012 by warultima

[ArchangelLBC]

I was starting to think about that too.

I thought I explained what hybrid tax is via examples...

So let me try again...

 

Hybrid tax means any class thats capable of spec into anything else PLUS DPS role is being charged with a "tax" which make them automatically weaker than the true DPS.

 

e.g Marauders and Snipers are "pure DPS" pure DPS cannot spec into anything other than DPS so they do not receive a hybrid tax that purposely nerf their damage/burst, everything else are some kind of "hybrid capable" AC where you can choose to spec as heal/dps or tank/dps.

 

In a game where hybrid tax exists the "Pure DPS" classes will usually always be on top of the board when it comes to DPS/Burst, whereas the hybrids are weaker dps wise and have other utilities to make up for the weaker dps capability.

 

SWTOR when it was released DEV officially stated SWTOR has no hybrid tax (its a WoW balancing concept). I raise the question how come all the "healer capable" ACs are innately weaker than other Pure DPS as well as all the "tank capable" ACs.

 

 

To be honest the first time I also thought you were talking about hybrid specs. Now that I understand what you mean I'll chip in my .02.

 

First I do not believe there is a deliberate "hybrid tax" mentality that has gone into the development of these classes because of the 8 ACs only 2 are pure DPS, and none is pure healer or pure tank. Their "5% window" that they shoot for also bears out that they don't necessarily want the pure DPS specs to be the clear winners in the damage department because that will pretty much demolish the people trying to play DPS commando, or DPS Assassin. That's why on the PVE side of things Commandos can consistently match Sentinels for damage.

 

Instead what they did was deliberately give the pure DPS classes specific utility buffs that their compatriots capable of different roles do not have. This is most noticed in the Centering based abilities for Sentinels (Inspiration, Transcendence, and Zen), though Sniper's do get their raid shield.

 

In this sense, you could consider this an effective Hybrid Tax since the utility that other classes get is pretty lackluster whereas Inspiration and Transcendence are pretty amazing when utilized correctly.

 

However as you note this was much more effective and noticeable on the healing capable ACs as opposed to the tanking ACs. For the most part, the healing is only ever really useful if you spec into it, and otherwise you either never use it, or you use it to cheese a healing medal for yourself, and meanwhile you can come up short on other utility (though maybe that's only Merc/Commandos because BW hates that AC).

 

For tank capable classes though it's obviously very different. While they prevent guard from being used out of tank stance, nothing stops people from using their taunts which not only gets you a nice chunk of medals without ever sacrificing a GCD but actually helps out by reducing the damage output of the opposing team. But PVP tanking in general has problems simply because the stats on tank gear are so underutilized in PVP.

 

If all this seems kinda muddled, then that's because I think that to a large extent BW's approach to class design has been very muddled and I think it's precisely because only two of the ACs have a set focus. You might say Shadow doesn't have a hybrid tax, but in actuality their two DPS trees are kinda lackluster in PVP at the moment (though yay buffs to infiltration!), so a lot of shadows are getting a lot of mileage from doing a Tank Hybrid and playing it to do damage. Similarly, Operatives are great healers but they have DPS problems (especially in PVE), though remember that it wasn't always this way (Sorcs used to be the big FotM, and who can forget the teams of stunlocking operatives?). Some of the classes I think they just don't know what to do with and until they figure it out these kind of things will be in flux. (Some classes it's clear not only do they not know what they want to do with, they don't even understand how they WORK *glares at commando*)

[Missandei]

Half the people in here don't really get what hybrid tax is. Even after that one guy spelled it out.

 

lol..

You have to be accustomed already to the fact that half of the people here don`t really get on everything..

and you are speaking of hybrid tax concept.. lol..

[paul_preib]

I was starting to think about that too.

I thought I explained what hybrid tax is via examples...

So let me try again...

 

Hybrid tax means any class thats capable of spec into anything else PLUS DPS role is being charged with a "tax" which make them automatically weaker than the true DPS.

 

e.g Marauders and Snipers are "pure DPS" pure DPS cannot spec into anything other than DPS so they do not receive a hybrid tax that purposely nerf their damage/burst, everything else are some kind of "hybrid capable" AC where you can choose to spec as heal/dps or tank/dps.

 

In a game where hybrid tax exists the "Pure DPS" classes will usually always be on top of the board when it comes to DPS/Burst, whereas the hybrids are weaker dps wise and have other utilities to make up for the weaker dps capability.

 

SWTOR when it was released DEV officially stated SWTOR has no hybrid tax (its a WoW balancing concept). I raise the question how come all the "healer capable" ACs are innately weaker than other Pure DPS as well as all the "tank capable" ACs.

 

In terms of raw output there isn't that much benefit to pure dps vs. hybrid, by and large it falls to the implementation of a given class' utility aspects more'n anything else.

 

Sorc/Sages when madness specced don't have burst, but have huge sheer damage capabilities. The issue they have is that their escapes are built into a different tree for the most part, making them quite vulnerable.

 

Mercs/Commandos hold up fine in terms of PVE dps, the issue they have is how easily that dps can be shut down in a pvp setting

 

Scoundrels/Agents do have damage-dealing issues now, but that has a lot more to do with people being upset about the style of class it is (i.e. "stunlocking operatives causing unsubs and all that)

 

 

And while you do mention that tank classes do not fall as much under this curtain, it is still interesting to note that two of the top three "burst" damage dealers are tankable classes (PT/Van and Smashbombers). Hell freecasting gunnery/arsenal can actually compare quite favorably with Sniper burst over 3-4 GCDs.

[Elear]

In a way, yes, it exists.

Remember BW uses their 'targets' to balance class outputs. Your basic way to do hybrid tax would be setting targets for pure classes higher than for others, and this is not happening here.

But it's pretty much impossible to hit target perfectly, so instead BW uses 5% tolerance, and when deciding if class can be a bit above or below target, thay consider other tools class brings, and as a result pure class won't land below target, and 'hybrid' is more likely to not cross target by much. And they are all supposed to be within 5% from each other(best to worst)

 

So you see, it's not basic hybdrid tax, but even without it pure class will come ahead just to compete against non-pures.

[RazielHex]

Mercs/Commandos hold up fine in terms of PVE dps, the issue they have is how easily that dps can be shut down in a pvp setting

 

That's because they're awful at what they do and they are inflexible in their tactics.

 

Tracer/Grav--Trac/Grav--INTERRUPT

 

"Oooh ****! Run!"

Edited September 7, 2012 by RazielHex

[LarryRow]

For tanks, no hybrid tax. You need to spec into the tank tree and be in tank stance to take advantage of the extra protection, which means you do less damage. Balanced

 

For healers, I'd say yes. Scoundrel, Sage and Commando dps are regarded as the least effective in the hands of most players. But this makes sense because they have heals no matter what spec/stance they are in. Sounds balanced to me, at least in pvp.

 

In PvE content where enrage timers are tight and you have dedicated healers, it does seem a little unfair. But I haven't heard any complaints (except from Scoundrels who have terrible mobility). Perhaps an above poster was correct that the healer classes don't so much have gimped dps as they do dps that's easier to shut down.

[foxmob]

did bw ever post a clear explanation of how their 5% is calculated? like are we talking dmg on a dummy? are they averaging (metrics?) from all ACs in all WZs? (gawd, that would be horribly skewed) are thy targeting specific devs' toons?

[paul_preib]

For tanks, no hybrid tax. You need to spec into the tank tree and be in tank stance to take advantage of the extra protection, which means you do less damage. Balanced

 

For healers, I'd say yes. Scoundrel, Sage and Commando dps are regarded as the least effective in the hands of most players. But this makes sense because they have heals no matter what spec/stance they are in. Sounds balanced to me, at least in pvp.

 

In PvE content where enrage timers are tight and you have dedicated healers, it does seem a little unfair. But I haven't heard any complaints (except from Scoundrels who have terrible mobility). Perhaps an above poster was correct that the healer classes don't so much have gimped dps as they do dps that's easier to shut down.

 

I would contend that non dps-based mechanics decisions are why these classes lag behind in terms of desirability, ie items that would be caused by a potential hybrid tax

 

Op- balanced around their getting the opener, because of this the class is tuned such that they are subpar whenever they are in a situation where they cannot pull off the opener from stealth. Being tuned for this when so much of the fight is spent stuck in combat has far more to do with it then healing.

 

Sages- balance can pump out plenty of damage, with the limited burst understandable as a periodic damage dealer. Weakness here lies not with the sage itself but with how readily cleansed those dots can be, put in an element similar to what snipers/gunslingers have on their dot component and the main flaw in a dps sage is perked back up.

 

Commandos- don't have much for yah. They were built around a clunky design that has the raw output potential but no foresight into how to continue to doll out that damage. Here I think rather then healing they were afforded too much consideration for heavy armor as a major aspect of their survivability, problem is that heavy armor is a very small difference from medium when not on a class with a tank stance.

[ArchangelLBC]

That's because they're awful at what they do and they are inflexible in their tactics.

 

Tracer/Grav--Trac/Grav--INTERRUPT

 

"Oooh ****! Run!"

 

minus the run part, and I'm sorry but this shows a massive ignorance about how the Arsenal/Gunnery tree works. EVERYTHING is synergized with Grav Round. Everything. The Armor Debuff? Grav round. The buffs to full auto, demo round, and high impact bolt? Grav Round. Shut down that one ability and the rest of their damage falls apart. Hell they can't even fire high impact bolt without Grav Round to free it up unless they somehow manage to get Plasma Grenade off (which suffers a lot to push back). In PVE this makes the spec very user friendly. In PVP this makes the spec incredibly vulnerable to interrupts.

 

For healers, I'd say yes. Scoundrel, Sage and Commando dps are regarded as the least effective in the hands of most players. But this makes sense because they have heals no matter what spec/stance they are in. Sounds balanced to me, at least in pvp.

 

Spoken like someone whose never played one of these classes, or at least hasn't played Commando. I can tell you that during combat the heals might as well not be there. It is incredibly ammo inefficient for not all that much healing done to attempt to heal others, and when you're the target its the next best thing to impossible to even get the heals off. This can be seen as a tax since BW previously used our heals as an excuse to not give us an interrupt, and will likely continue to use this as an excuse to not give us further utility like dependable snares/roots.

 

It sounds like it should be balanced on paper. I can't fault you for thinking that. BW makes the game and they seem to believe that. Probably because none of them actually play the class. In practice it's pretty much anything but.

 

Perhaps an above poster was correct that the healer classes don't so much have gimped dps as they do dps that's easier to shut down.

 

Given the kinda powerhouse DPS I've seen out of Sages and Commandos on the PVE content of the game I'm certain of this, at least for those two classes (unfortunately stealth gameplay doesn't really translate well to PVE). Heck I've been saying for awhile that if you just give my commando an ability to temporarily be immune to interrupts (preventing the shutdown that plagues gunnery and yes even assault after the initial burst) that I think commando would be quite a powerful class in PVP. The power that sniper's wield in PVP is all the proof I need of this fact.

 

Commandos- don't have much for yah. They were built around a clunky design that has the raw output potential but no foresight into how to continue to doll out that damage. Here I think rather then healing they were afforded too much consideration for heavy armor as a major aspect of their survivability, problem is that heavy armor is a very small difference from medium when not on a class with a tank stance.

 

For commando I'd say it's a vulnerability to interrupts combined with an inability to keep enemies at range for any real length of time. Think how weak snipers would be if they were vulnerable to leaps and interrupts while in cover. Utility that other classes get, specifically roots and snares, which would help a lot to keep enemies at a distance, combined with an innate ability to keep enemies away (kiting mechanics on Sage including Force Speed, immunity to leaps and pulls for snipers), is what allows other classes to shine and unfortunately I think it was a combination of heavy armor and heals which made BW think that Commandos could do without. The fact that they STILL seem to think that is kinda disheartening, though at least by giving us an interrupt they've shown that they might have been mistaken about that in the past.