Will anything actually retain customers?

[Asavrede]

What keeps people around is community and meaningful things to do together. If one of these start to crumble the other will too and you'll get a ghost town. There might be content, but what good is that when there is noone to do it with.

[ImperialSun]

/clap

 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

QFT...

 

Ref the SWG EMU - I dipped in to it a couple of weeks ago, it is still an alpha so only has one server atm and there is obviously some stuff missing in terms of content and not all classes are present / viable yet however.......

 

During the few days I was playing I took part in and witnessed more constructive, positive and friendly conversations than I have seen or witnessed in 9 months playing SWTOR. The community feeling is already there and as the project develops I would not be surprised to see it become very, very popular. And it's free!!

 

Considering its a dead game running on a single emulated alpha server, the player cap of 3,000 is reached every single evening. If SWTOR was canned tomorrow do you think fans would invest the time and donations to re-engineer a fully working emulator of this game? SWG had problems of course but the fact that its still around and being played by 3000 people every day plus the hard work and dedication shown by the EMU team and contributors / donators speaks volumes imo.

 

I literally had to remind myself I was actually paying for SWTOR and drag myself back after 3 days....forget GW2 for casual / second MMORPG.....I will be heading straight back to the SWG EMU whenever I need a break from SWTOR. It may lack the polish and graphics of SWTOR however it is light years ahead in scope, depth, complexity and the sheer amount of things to do with your time ingame.

 

Driz

[turjake]

QFT...

 

Ref the SWG EMU - I dipped in to it a couple of weeks ago, it is still an alpha so only has one server atm and there is obviously some stuff missing in terms of content and not all classes are present / viable yet however.......

 

During the few days I was playing I took part in and witnessed more constructive, positive and friendly conversations than I have seen or witnessed in 9 months playing SWTOR. The community feeling is already there and as the project develops I would not be surprised to see it become very, very popular. And it's free!!

 

Considering its a dead game running on a single emulated alpha server, the player cap of 3,000 is reached every single evening. If SWTOR was canned tomorrow do you think fans would invest the time and donations to re-engineer a fully working emulator of this game? SWG had problems of course but the fact that its still around and being played by 3000 people every day plus the hard work and dedication shown by the EMU team and contributors / donators speaks volumes imo.

 

I literally had to remind myself I was actually paying for SWTOR and drag myself back after 3 days....forget GW2 for casual / second MMORPG.....I will be heading straight back to the SWG EMU whenever I need a break from SWTOR. It may lack the polish and graphics of SWTOR however it is light years ahead in scope, depth, complexity and the sheer amount of things to do with your time ingame.

 

Driz

 

Problem with swgemu and similar projects is that if they ever reach the point of significance, certain big company/companies are going to stomp them so hard with their armies of lawyers the project leaders are going to wish they took flower arranging as a hobby instead. Specially if they start collecting any amount of cash to support the project.

[Goretzu]

Problem with swgemu and similar projects is that if they ever reach the point of significance, certain big company/companies are going to stomp them so hard with their armies of lawyers the project leaders are going to wish they took flower arranging as a hobby instead. Specially if they start collecting any amount of cash to support the project.

 

Yeah they'll let stuff like that exist so long as basically "no one" is playing them.

[Karquile]

Sunk costs are sunk. They have no bearing in decisions moving forward, in any business worth a bent di...me. What SWTOR cost to develop is irrelevant to the go-forward strategy.

 

The notion that SWTOR is more expensive to update than Rift because it cost more to develop is also hogwash. I can develop something very quick and dirty and cheaply but it would be a ***** to maintain and extend. Or I can spend a bit more and make it very extensible. That's the way things work in software. It's not like we're hand-making Lamborghinis vs. mass producing Fords. Generally smaller budget stuff is harder to extend and bigger budget stuff should be easier because you put that thought into it ahead of time. And EA apparently did this as evidenced by developers saying they liked the Hero engine because of how easy it made it to add stuff and VPs saying things like the F2P games can't add content at the same sort of pace they can.

 

The fact that Rift is running circles around SWTOR in terms of content and feature release pace should make the EA team absolutely livid with embarrassment. But it doesn't seem to. Instead, they want to sell us the Santa hats you mentioned.

 

Sunk costs are indeed sunk and EA/BW have already written them off, but further development costs are higher, not "because" SWTOR cost more to develop (a linkage I did not make), but because the systems they put in place make them higher. There is a reason you are not seeing rapid patches. This is an expensive game in every way, and it has a core audience of about 350k players on a good day. Believe me, EA is embarrassed. But they don't stay embarrassed for long - they reach into the fridge and pull out a crisp, cool can of WHUPA**. Don't be surprised if you hear the Whoosh! sound of a few cans opening.

[ImperialSun]

Problem with swgemu and similar projects is that if they ever reach the point of significance, certain big company/companies are going to stomp them so hard with their armies of lawyers the project leaders are going to wish they took flower arranging as a hobby instead. Specially if they start collecting any amount of cash to support the project.

 

Not sure how true it is but in the case of SWG EMU specifically I read that SOE had issued some sort of legal statement officially claiming that all of the SWG Pre CU code and its component parts had been "lost". The ramifications in the legal sense are apparently that SOE cannot magically "find" the code again should the EMU become popular.

 

Similarly and again, allegedly this means that SOE can never open SWG classic servers and/or stomp the EMU team.

 

Here's hoping

 

Driz

[Cakellene]

Not sure how true it is but in the case of SWG EMU specifically I read that SOE had issued some sort of legal statement officially claiming that all of the SWG Pre CU code and its component parts had been "lost". The ramifications in the legal sense are apparently that SOE cannot magically "find" the code again should the EMU become popular.

 

Similarly and again, allegedly this means that SOE can never open SWG classic servers and/or stomp the EMU team.

 

Here's hoping

 

Driz

 

Isn't that irrelevant if they use their IP?

[Ansalem]

at this point there are still many things that need fixing...ie combat delays lag spikes that are still prevalent. Also space needs to be completely redone to free roam. With the lack of content atm I feel like bioware should be paying me to play their game instead of the other way around.

[Jeffor]

QFT...

 

Ref the SWG EMU - I dipped in to it a couple of weeks ago, it is still an alpha so only has one server atm and there is obviously some stuff missing in terms of content and not all classes are present / viable yet however.......

 

During the few days I was playing I took part in and witnessed more constructive, positive and friendly conversations than I have seen or witnessed in 9 months playing SWTOR. The community feeling is already there and as the project develops I would not be surprised to see it become very, very popular. And it's free!!

 

Considering its a dead game running on a single emulated alpha server, the player cap of 3,000 is reached every single evening. If SWTOR was canned tomorrow do you think fans would invest the time and donations to re-engineer a fully working emulator of this game? SWG had problems of course but the fact that its still around and being played by 3000 people every day plus the hard work and dedication shown by the EMU team and contributors / donators speaks volumes imo.

 

I literally had to remind myself I was actually paying for SWTOR and drag myself back after 3 days....forget GW2 for casual / second MMORPG.....I will be heading straight back to the SWG EMU whenever I need a break from SWTOR. It may lack the polish and graphics of SWTOR however it is light years ahead in scope, depth, complexity and the sheer amount of things to do with your time ingame.

 

Driz

 

Yep it's pretty sad that a half finished Emulator is more fun than a new, extravagantly expensive game. I play EMU all the time and I haven't logged into TOR in over two months. I came here today hoping to see some good new. I am not encouraged so far.

 

Also, my biggest pet peeve of this game is that their is supposed to be a galaxy-wide war going on and we even have PVP servers yet it doesn't feel like there is a war on and open PVP doesn't resemble a war at all. This is another thing that SWG did better. It wasn't always balanced but there were large scale battles going on every night and we actually had server forums so we could discuss it afterwards.

 

Really the biggest problem is that BW and EA don't know how to make an MMO apparently. I am a Star Wars fan but I will only pay for a game account I never use for so long. I want this game to succeed but how long do we wait for them to make this game decent? How long will players stick around?

[Urael]

 

1. Makeb was supposed to be FREE, they've changed their mind, but that doens't mean everyone should therefore be happy.

 

G-

 

You keep posting that EA/BW have in no uncertain terms changed their mind on Makeb. Do you have a link to anything that shows this. I have only seen "discussions" on the matter but no final word. Do you have anything with a final word on this matter. If ya don't, please don't spread a rumours. As of now, it's still being desided and they "could" stay the course and offer it for free.

[DarthTHC]

Sunk costs are indeed sunk and EA/BW have already written them off, but further development costs are higher, not "because" SWTOR cost more to develop (a linkage I did not make), but because the systems they put in place make them higher. There is a reason you are not seeing rapid patches. This is an expensive game in every way, and it has a core audience of about 350k players on a good day. Believe me, EA is embarrassed. But they don't stay embarrassed for long - they reach into the fridge and pull out a crisp, cool can of WHUPA**. Don't be surprised if you hear the Whoosh! sound of a few cans opening.

 

Seems to me they keep pissing themselves instead of opening that can you're thinking about. Maybe that's the whoosh sound you hear?

 

They keep SAYING they're going to do this and do that. And then when it's all said and done, they lay off more people, deliver nothing, and say it again.

Edited September 7, 2012 by DarthTHC

[LordArtemis]

I say they hold Makeb, get terminals in the game with random missions like I discussed earlier, and work on giving us color choice for armor and allow all armor to be converted to empty Orange armor.

 

That would keep us busy for a bit.

[Goretzu]

G-

 

You keep posting that EA/BW have in no uncertain terms changed their mind on Makeb. Do you have a link to anything that shows this. I have only seen "discussions" on the matter but no final word. Do you have anything with a final word on this matter. If ya don't, please don't spread a rumours. As of now, it's still being desided and they "could" stay the course and offer it for free.

 

I saw a vision in the force.

 

(in reality in a corporate atmosphere like Bioware EA if something goes from state A to being "discussed" as State B and State B is going bring in short-term cash flow, then the decision is effectively already made - we'll have to see if I'm right..... but I am. )

[Metalmac]

Well, it seems to be its a simple formula. Stop adding end game content as that has had probable zero effect. End game content simply burns up too quickly to justify the amount of dev time involved.

 

Repeatable "sandboxy" content is what's needed. More minigame and achievement type activities like I mentioned, more customization. Give players things to do, reasons to stay.

 

Achievements are for long time players and not much fun.

Sand box is good, but wears thing over time.

Mini games never interest me as I can find online better and more that are bug free.

 

End game content is challenging and keeps my interest, but to high of gradient in skill means it is pointless to try.

[LordArtemis]

Achievements are for long time players and not much fun.

Sand box is good, but wears thing over time.

Mini games never interest me as I can find online better and more that are bug free.

 

End game content is challenging and keeps my interest, but to high of gradient in skill means it is pointless to try.

 

The point still stands however. End game content is not going to sustain the population here. It is likely too expensive to create any long length content, and the short length content will be run through quickly.

 

What we need is sustainable repeatable content and activities. It may not please everyone, but my money is on the idea that it will likely please the majority casual playerbase, and perhaps even place the game on an upward slope.

Edited September 7, 2012 by LordArtemis

[Hessen]

My short term suggestions are simply:

 

- Fixed hood toggle and companion weapons always being out

- Add hide head slot and unify chest colour options to companions

- Colour wheel for chest pieces for characters and companions

- Single and multiplayer Pazaak

- Separate PvP warzone queues

- At least one place to encourage open world PvP

- Add level 50 items (that look pretty and/or are useful) to each of the planets commendation vendors that require a large amount of commendation grinding to get

Edited September 7, 2012 by Hessen

[Urael]

I saw a vision in the force.

 

(in reality in a corporate atmosphere like Bioware EA if something goes from state A to being "discussed" as State B and State B is going bring in short-term cash flow, then the decision is effectively already made - we'll have to see if I'm right..... but I am. )

 

I hope your "vison" was just a small disturbance in the voice as I think you feel the same.

[Lazzer]

It's really the same thing that is harming all new MMOs across the board, TOR has suffered from it from day one. The problem is size, the amount of players that need to play for it to make a profit, for a game to survive it needs to decide who it's clients are and what it is aiming for.

 

If TOR had picked one single direction, aimed at keeping to a single philosophy and let everyone that that direction and philosophy didn't suit go it would have developed a loyal playerbase and demographic to cater for. The problem is such a playerbase and demographic isn't big enough for what it cost to make so it has to try a cater for more people, a lot more people.

 

Then what happens is that demographic A wants something that irritates demographic B, who campaign for something that demographic C get annoyed and and all 3 leave.

 

It's quite that simple, they tried too hard to please everyone and ended up pleasing no one because pleasing a single demographic would not have generated enough funds for the game to survive.

[Metalmac]

The point still stands however. End game content is not going to sustain the population here. It is likely too expensive to create any long length content, and the short length content will be run through quickly.

 

What we need is sustainable repeatable content and activities. It may not please everyone, but my money is on the idea that it will likely please the majority casual playerbase, and perhaps even place the game on an upward slope.

 

Everyone knows when a games lose the high end players the game is dead shortly after.

 

The high end are on MMO or some other thing to point out the edgy parts of the game, lose that and boring is the name.

[LordSkyKnight]

I think it comes down to corporate greed. All these companies see how much money Blizzard has made and want to copy that. Artistic design comes second to that. If they would worry less about making games that will smash the competition and just focus on making fun games, they would do better. Swtor had a fine base to start with but they are really lacking on the small things that make a game fun, all the minor details. More customization of your character, stuff to help roleplaying, diversity of gear, etc.

 

I think back to playing Skyrim and all the stuff that was great playing it. Weather, exploring, all the little things you can mess with in dungeons, making your character and then think about swtor. The world is dead, nothing never changes as you play, huge areas of nothing as you level, the gear looks like crap, making characters took 2 mins, etc.

 

When you strip away the story from swtor, what does it have? A big fat nothing, thats what. Even the story has a lot of rough spots on it. A lot of the choices in your character response are the same generic response to a lot of the quests. The light and dark system is total crap, it doesn't do anything to the game expect limit a very small amount of item choices, total waste of time.

 

I also find it funny that some people think the game is going to chance or get better. Their basic design will remain the same while they add in very small changes. The legacy system being a huge credit sink rather thank turning into something great, gear mods costing a crap load to change, no appearance tab, no way to change the color of gear, crappy textures on most of the armour in the game.

 

I swear, every mmo EA has put it's hands on has turn to utter crap, every single one.

[Hessen]

It's frustrating that from my point of view it wouldn't take much polish to have a good solid core to which more could be added.

 

A bit of open world PvP, some simple cosmetic enhancements, a couple of mini games and a bit of endgame grind, along with a bit of better communication around what's going on and some actual delivery on them would see the game be far more appealing to the different crowds.

 

Unfortunately the longer it doesn't change, the more people will be lost forever.

Edited September 8, 2012 by Hessen

[Styxx]

G-

 

You keep posting that EA/BW have in no uncertain terms changed their mind on Makeb. Do you have a link to anything that shows this. I have only seen "discussions" on the matter but no final word. Do you have anything with a final word on this matter. If ya don't, please don't spread a rumours. As of now, it's still being desided and they "could" stay the course and offer it for free.

 

http://www.swtor.com/support/helpcenter/6469 - "Unlimited access to regular Game Updates"

http://www.swtor-life.com/video/the-future-of-swtor-jeff-hickman-interview/7112/ - " We’re still in discussion about some of the larger content updates that we’re planning".

 

Content is content. Period.

 

Shady business, such as trying to dub Makeb an Expansion is just cheap shady business.

[Grinstone]

People want PvP like in WAR, but they left WAR.

 

People want sandbox elements like in SWG, but they left SWG.

 

People want community and character customisation like in CoH, but they left CoH.

 

People want the amount of end-game content of WoW, but they left WoW.

 

So even if SWTOR was some ultimate MMO force, bringing together all of these features together and adding in some fully voiced class stories. Would it actually retain a larger amount of people for very long?

 

Well, yes. Obviously.

 

However, unless this MMO had a budget that would make Warren Buffet's net worth wobble it'll never come into being. Which is probably closer to making the point you're trying to make.

 

content content content! BW has to start pushing out content like clockwork

 

People will always consume content faster than it is presented. It's the nature of the beast. That said, even Matt Bromberg has admitted that they dropped the ball on putting out new content and stated that they will have a much more aggressive schedule once they switch to F2P. If they live up to his promises I should expect to see new content every 3 to 4 months in 2013, at a minimum.

[Darvus]

over 9 months in and we still get choppy combat delay combat system...I played WOW and GW2 then I logged on SWTOR and I was just horrified at the delays. They need to optimize their pile of crap beta version of hero engine and fix the game...they need to release the content they promised us like nightmare ec at end of july etc...they need to communicate better and tell the EA marketing dept to butt out and stick to their number crunching surveys. They need to actually play the game they are making and Im not talking about testing something for 5 mins...they need to level up a toon from 1-50 then grind to gear for raiding and go into an actual guild and raid with them to get a feel for the game...they need to delete current space mini game and open space up to free roam with pvp and multiplayer abilities....they need to stop polishing turds and get something new and innovative going here because what they have atm is nothing more than WOW in space w/ combat delays grindfest of daily quests w/ some pvp on the side and 4 bosses every 5-6 months...I honestly feel that bioware had no idea what it was getting into here and is in over its head...its like they stopped caring about what they put out and just decided to put out anything they could to appease the idiots and give them some breathing room...I'm tired of trying to justify my subscription or even playing when this goes f2p...its like they just dont care.

 

Wow. I vote for you as the new Lead Developer. I actually agree with every point you made. This game, from the start lacked the touch of people that were familiar with playing MMOs, and had no idea about guilds. If they want to save what is left of the playerbase, they will start listening to feedback like this, and engaging the community in real discussions. I realized in beta, when they only wanted praise, that this was going in a bad direction. They do seem to not care, at all.

[Goretzu]

It's frustrating that from my point of view it wouldn't take much polish to have a good solid core to which more could be added.

 

A bit of open world PvP, some simple cosmetic enhancements, a couple of mini games and a bit of endgame grind, along with a bit of better communication around what's going on and some actual delivery on them would see the game be far more appealing to the different crowds.

 

Unfortunately the longer it doesn't change, the more people will be lost forever.

 

 

Yeah it wouldn't take much, but we've been saying thart since launch, and whilst they progressed stuff like UI greatly other stuff just hasn't been on the adgenda.