Will anything actually retain customers?

[Andryah]

The only MMO that pushes out content like this is Trion's Rift. there is an event every other month or so, so many that it actually irritates some folks. people will come and go during MMO'S some for raids / dungeons / FP'S and some for xpacks.

 

Very true. And Rift bled out subs as fast or faster and in as great a percentage as this game has to date. Which demonstrates that "content, content, content" won't keep players either.

 

The player base has become nomadic in nature. It is what it is. They are going to hop/feed/hop/rinse&repeat across the MMO offerings now days. No stopping it. The real question is what is an MMOs stable player base size, which is what you get once attrition flattens out and you move into a cycle of join/leave equalibriium. Other then WoW, the magic numbers seems to be ~ 30-35% of launch numbers for a heavily hyped MMO. WoW follows a different dynamic, but even in their case they are suffering post expansion hemoridges of 40%+.

[Valkirus]

WoW follows a different dynamic, but even in their case they are suffering post expansion hemoridges of 40%+.

 

40%+ expansion hemoridges? WoW the last quarterly report lost 1.1 million subs which is about 10% of thier sub base. The two quarters before that, they had no lost...was stable at 10.2 million for two 3 month reporting cycles. Where do you get this 40%+ figures?

[Andryah]

40%+ expansion hemoridges? WoW the last quarterly report lost 1.1 million subs which is about 10% of thier sub base. The two quarters before that, they had no lost...was stable at 10.2 million for two 3 month reporting cycles. Where do you get this 40%+ figures?

 

You have to understand what their subscriber base actually IS. It's not 10M+ paid subs, and never was.

 

Use mmodata.net to see that only about 5 million of their subscriber base (in 2010) was paid subs in NA/EU. The rest are Asia pay-2-access accounts (not subscriptions as we commonly define them), which remain "active" for life once they are opened.

 

So in reality, they had at best 5 million paid subs at the last expansion launch (go ahead and check mmodata.net if you don't believe me). AND, they have lost 2 Million of those over the last year. Hence, 40% post expansion losses, and that is probably generous since mmodata.net no longer breaks out WoW East/Westdata and hence does not list recent subs numbers for WoW

Edited September 4, 2012 by Andryah

[Sungas]

I have played umpteen mmorpgs and SWG pre CU was far and away, my favorite. I'm not going to create a wall of text explaining why it was so good. I will say the basic format was in place to make the game even more amazing.

 

It was released too soon, very buggy, and unbalanced, but. the game concepts were/are extremely solid.

 

 

It isn't often you find volunteers hacking away on an emulation, funded by voluntary donations, and determined enough to keep at it for years. Know of any other community that clings to a dream like that?

 

That is how good SWG pre CU was.......bugs, imbalance, and all else included.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Sungas

[Imhotep]

All these SWG glory days people need to go to http://www.swgemu.com and play to your hearts content. I just left there because guess what...games boring as hell after about 3 weeks.

 

No matter what BW does it wont be able to satisfy this fickle mob.

 

We get a solid update today and terribad mercs cry over rocket punch.

[Cakellene]

Their only option is to say "#$%& popular opinion. Let's go oldschool and turn TOR into a modern EQ!"

 

Well, probably not... but it's nice to dream.

 

EQ still around if you're missing it.

[Ricktur]

People want PvP like in WAR, but they left WAR.

 

People want sandbox elements like in SWG, but they left SWG.

 

People want community and character customisation like in CoH, but they left CoH.

 

People want the amount of end-game content of WoW, but they left WoW.

 

So even if SWTOR was some ultimate MMO force, bringing together all of these features together and adding in some fully voiced class stories. Would it actually retain a larger amount of people for very long?

 

this is a hands down, put in perspective, kick butt post. love it OP

[Hessen]

I'd like to pretend that I'm not a fickle fan myself. But I loved Lotro and CoH, and I left them both and I've already left TOR once and come back. Lifetime MMOing just isn't for me. And to be honest, even if there was monthly updates, with great open RvR, a fantastic character customisation option and friendly and funny community. I'd probably still get bored after a period of time.

 

I don't know why. Maybe it's just the type of content that's in these types of games, because I still play Rollercoaster Tycoon 2, Civ 4 and Football Manager 2007 regularly and throw a lot of hours at them whilst enjoying them so i'm not just after the latest shiny thing.

[Imhotep]

I'd like to pretend that I'm not a fickle fan myself. But I loved Lotro and CoH, and I left them both and I've already left TOR once and come back. Lifetime MMOing just isn't for me. And to be honest, even if there was monthly updates, with great open RvR, a fantastic character customisation option and friendly and funny community. I'd probably still get bored after a period of time.

 

I don't know why. Maybe it's just the type of content that's in these types of games, because I still play Rollercoaster Tycoon 2, Civ 4 and Football Manager 2007 regularly and throw a lot of hours at them whilst enjoying them so i'm not just after the latest shiny thing.

 

MMOS might not be your thing. I cant stand single player games anymore because Im used to the social aspect of MMOs. No shame in that at all.

[Hessen]

MMOS might not be your thing. I cant stand single player games anymore because Im used to the social aspect of MMOs. No shame in that at all.

 

I love the social side a lot, I guess I just don't really like RPGs. The whole gear grind, and levelling up points thing doesn't really interest me. I want to run around with 3 other people in trooper armour looking like a proper squad, or have 4 level 50 "Darth" titled Sith Warriors go on a fishing trip. etc. whilst talking about our favourite chocolate bars or which 80s cartoon had the best intro.

[Imhotep]

I love the social side a lot, I guess I just don't really like RPGs. The whole gear grind, and levelling up points thing doesn't really interest me. I want to run around with 3 other people in trooper armour looking like a proper squad, or have 4 level 50 "Darth" titled Sith Warriors go on a fishing trip. etc. whilst talking about our favourite chocolate bars or which 80s cartoon had the best intro.

 

Heh, yeah this game could stand to be a little more open world and maybe have a touch of sandbox in it. But I like it. Ive quit and come back but to me its better than pandacraft and GW2. Played the SWG EMU for about a month and realized in a total sandbox it can get rather boring rather quickly.

[kirorx]

Heh, yeah this game could stand to be a little more open world and maybe have a touch of sandbox in it. But I like it. Ive quit and come back but to me its better than pandacraft and GW2. Played the SWG EMU for about a month and realized in a total sandbox it can get rather boring rather quickly.

 

Keep on playing the EMU, keep in mind that EMU has very little content at the moment. That will change over time and the more people that play the faster we may see some of those changes, currently its very much in it's infancy and you shouldn't judge that game by the content, alot of content can be placed into the sandbox element, it just offers the freedom to choose which content you want to enjoy and when.

 

For now EMU is all about just enjoying that open feel, some day/night and dynamic weather. A little break from our mundane fleet.

Edited September 5, 2012 by kirorx

[Valkirus]

You have to understand what their subscriber base actually IS. It's not 10M+ paid subs, and never was.

 

Use mmodata.net to see that only about 5 million of their subscriber base (in 2010) was paid subs in NA/EU. The rest are Asia pay-2-access accounts (not subscriptions as we commonly define them), which remain "active" for life once they are opened.

 

So in reality, they had at best 5 million paid subs at the last expansion launch (go ahead and check mmodata.net if you don't believe me). AND, they have lost 2 Million of those over the last year. Hence, 40% post expansion losses, and that is probably generous since mmodata.net no longer breaks out WoW East/Westdata and hence does not list recent subs numbers for WoW

 

Pure speculation on your figures. This is what you throw at anyone on here who comes up with some guess. A sub is a sub...sure the payment methods may vary in other countries and the amount will vary..but they are still "subscriptions" and are technically correct in counting them as such. What we can only count as officail are what they release in thier quarterly reports. Same for TOR..correct? Only last time no sub figures were released for TOR. Only a curve ball statement of " well above 500K". You said those subs which are in Asia remain active for life? How come Blizz themselves said in thier last quarterly report most of the 1.1 million subs lost where from the West/Asia?

Edited September 5, 2012 by Valkirus

[aristein]

The only MMO that pushes out content like this is Trion's Rift. there is an event every other month or so, so many that it actually irritates some folks. people will come and go during MMO'S some for raids / dungeons / FP'S and some for xpacks.

 

What retains my sub is the story / lore. my only beef i guess if you could call it that is it is not a sandbox, there is no single player dailies, or real reason to go back to the planets after you hit 50. which is sad because of all the work they put into it. dont get me wrong the heroics are fine but having regular single player dailies / hubs gives players a convieniece of doing them any time they want to even when other player dont.

 

I believe there is something to what you are saying here. Pusing out LOTS of crap, is still pushing out CRAP. So, while I agree that they need to develop regular content expansions (which they haven't been doing fast enough), we don't need a lot of cookie-cutter filler pushed on us.

 

I think the ultimate thing that swtor is lacking is content that is fun to replay over and over.

-Developing different level'd areas on planets, repeatable quests that have usuable rewards, etc would be a good start. Having a reason to go back to worlds, and reasons for devs to expand on those worlds.

-Having meaningful minigames would help; monthly pod racing, with prizes for the top 10% fastest racers each month; Pazaak torniments monthly prizes; etc.

-Having world events 4+ times a years.

 

Having replayable content that is meaningful and fun to get involved with would build community, invest players in the game, and give players something to do inbetween meaningful content expansion (which should be regular, but not so often that it lowers standards and becomes just a timesink).

 

Content that is fun to replay will save swtor is anything can. I think they seriously underestimated how fast players can chew through content and get bored (and start whining). The only real solution is to have lots of replayable content that is fun and rewarding to get involved with. Pushing tons of cookie-cutter crap just cheapens the game, and focusing too much on f2p cash shops just turns it into a high school community (look at me!..I am better than you!).

Edited September 5, 2012 by aristein

[Karquile]

As long as they don't panic and destroy the game with an NGE-like makeover, they will retain 300-350k customers plus a churning froth of F2P casuals dipping in and out.

 

Nothing, not even sending every player a canned ham and a teddy bear, will retain the number of customers that the developer, publisher and licensor deluded themselves into hoping for over the last couple of years. There is no such market of that size, not for a Star Wars MMO.

 

In that sense, the fate of this game has been written since well before release.

[Asacledhae]

I think the ultimate thing that swtor is lacking is content that is fun to replay over and over.

 

Having replayable content that is meaningful and fun to get involved with would build community, invest players in the game, and give players something to do inbetween meaningful content expansion (which should be regular, but not so often that it lowers standards and becomes just a timesink).

 

Content that is fun to replay will save swtor is anything can. I think they seriously underestimated how fast players can chew through content and get bored (and start whining). The only real solution is to have lots of replayable content that is fun and rewarding to get involved with. Pushing tons of cookie-cutter crap just cheapens the game, and focusing too much on f2p cash shops just turns it into a high school community (look at me!..I am better than you!).

Simply THIS!

 

F2P is NOT the answer to a game that starts to go downhill due to "old school" nonsense, you CLOSE the hole that opens, not put a paper sheet above it and pretend it's not there.. People will still fall inside..

 

In any case, I see comparisons with other games in this thread, like CoH, WAR, WoW, SWG.. Yeah, they have some amazing features in them.. CoH's customization, WAR's RvR combat. WoW's..... and SWG's "freedom"... Still, people are forgetting something disturbingly important :

 

This isn't the early 2000's, it's 2012.. Simply copying stuff from OLD games to add to a NEW one, will eventually cause players to say "Yeah, i've been there, i've done that, i don't want to re-do it in a new game, no matter how polished it is".. I'm sure those games had something extraordinary back at their peak times, but hey? Check the dates! People have been doing all that <@#$!?> for MORE than 8 years now, i think it's time for something new, unique, and lasting..

 

BioWare was amazing with the voice add-on to the game.. It was the first time people saw such a thing in an online game, and it definitely added "points" to the game.. I Myself said that i've found my new MMO due to this, and i still love it, even now..

 

But behind that? NOTHING new! Same skill collection, and GEAR HUNT! Especially at 50's.. We do the SAME things day after day, and for what? For us to get a disgusting looking high class armor to use in OPS cause you can't do them without it? An armor which will be plain useless when they decide to increase the level cap? For us to re-grind all over again for the next level cap raise? And why? Cause it's "How things are" according to some morons with their brains above the clouds?

 

By creating something brand new and exciting, you'll attract more players, and even those who are literally sick of "traditional" MMO's.. There's NO Tradition in Video Games, you just try to be unique and create something never seen before..

 

It's just, that, simple..

[FourTwent]

The only MMO that pushes out content like this is Trion's Rift. there is an event every other month or so, so many that it actually irritates some folks. people will come and go during MMO'S some for raids / dungeons / FP'S and some for xpacks.

 

What retains my sub is the story / lore. my only beef i guess if you could call it that is it is not a sandbox, there is no single player dailies, or real reason to go back to the planets after you hit 50. which is sad because of all the work they put into it. dont get me wrong the heroics are fine but having regular single player dailies / hubs gives players a convieniece of doing them any time they want to even when other player dont.

 

lol what? there's no single player dailies? There aren't many dailies in the game that require more than one person.I dont know if you're playing a different game I'm playing

 

It does sound like you just want a sandbox game. More power to you though, good luck changing the game to suit your needs.

Edited September 5, 2012 by FourTwent

[turjake]

I think they should try to advertise this game a lot more. People leave mmorpgs all the time. To replace them they need new players. Star Wars is a big IP sure, but currently they dont bother to tell anyone about this game. All those podcasts, twitters, facebook things work only for the people who already know about the game. Interviews in game blogs and magazines will reach people who already play a lot and most likely have already heard about the game. Where are they getting new players?

 

Other problem with not advertising is that there are currently a group of ex-players in various forums ready to repeat their rant about how this game is a total failure every time someone mentions swtor. When they actually start advertising, their potential audience has already been warmed by these parrots. Just think about a stand up comedian who's jokes are all about the silly things his wife does and who tries to do his act in some aggressive feminist convention...

 

Other than that, more various different content to different playstyles. Just dont try to please everyone with a single content or you end up pleasing no-one.

Edited September 5, 2012 by turjake

[Jarlgon]

well for APAC players a server transfer service will retain and possibly bring back players.

[Urael]

All these SWG glory days people need to go to http://www.swgemu.com and play to your hearts content. I just left there because guess what...games boring as hell after about 3 weeks.

 

1. Still in Alpha.
   
2. All the old schoolers are coming back from Intrepid, Bria, and Starsider.
   
3. It will be the place to RP and do all that sandbox community stuff soon ( and not Soon!!(™) ).
   

 

You represent the "new" MMORPG player. Impatient.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Urael

[Goretzu]

I think they should try to advertise this game a lot more. People leave mmorpgs all the time. To replace them they need new players. Star Wars is a big IP sure, but currently they dont bother to tell anyone about this game. All those podcasts, twitters, facebook things work only for the people who already know about the game. Interviews in game blogs and magazines will reach people who already play a lot and most likely have already heard about the game. Where are they getting new players?

 

Other problem with not advertising is that there are currently a group of ex-players in various forums ready to repeat their rant about how this game is a total failure every time someone mentions swtor. When they actually start advertising, their potential audience has already been warmed by these parrots. Just think about a stand up comedian who's jokes are all about the silly things his wife does and who tries to do his act in some aggressive feminist convention...

 

Other than that, more various different content to different playstyles. Just dont try to please everyone with a single content or you end up pleasing no-one.

 

 

 

They advertised like mad for SWTOR, it was everywhere.

 

There problem is retention, simply because the game core isn't well designed for it, they should have had more sandy features in from launch and they need things like RvR (or RvRvR) in yesterday too.

[Urael]

They advertised like mad for SWTOR, it was everywhere.

 

There problem is retention, simply because the game core isn't well designed for it, they should have had more sandy features in from launch and they need things like RvR (or RvRvR) in yesterday too.

 

Today's MMORPG player is capricious. TBH, not sure any company is going to be able to make "the MMORPG" that will satisfy the current customer base.

[Andryah]

Today's MMORPG player is capricious. TBH, not sure any company is going to be able to make "the MMORPG" that will satisfy the current customer base.

 

Truer words have never been spoken in this forum.

 

What continues to surprise me is how much people are in denial about the nature of the broader playerbase in MMOs today. They keep wanting to blame the game producers, when in fact much of the problem of retention rests with the very nature of the player base in 2012. People pontificate about how this is not the early 2000s (or 1990s) and an MMO must offer x, y, z, at launch.... but the reality is that MMOs have evolved a lot from those earlier times, but so has the player base (and not in a good way in the context of retention). Players are largely nomadic, selfish, and consumption based. It's the Mongol Horde, only in virtual form, moving across the plains of the MMO portfolio, killing and conusming everything in it's path. Nomads do not settle down anywhere long enough to leave any lasting impression.

[FunkyOne]

People want PvP like in WAR, but they left WAR.

Because WAR was only PVP. It was a Shooter with a dressing room.

People want sandbox elements like in SWG, but they left SWG.

SWG had bad timing- (EQ wasn't dead enough for a new MMO yet- especially a new one by the same company) and it had too much sand, not enough box.

People want community and character customisation like in CoH, but they left CoH.

Can't help you there, I didn' even try CoH. Had nightmares of people playing the Batman-who-wasn't-Batman or Wolverine-who-wasn't-Wolverine for weeks...

People want the amount of end-game content of WoW, but they left WoW.

 

So even if SWTOR was some ultimate MMO force, bringing together all of these features together and adding in some fully voiced class stories. Would it actually retain a larger amount of people for very long?

 

People didn't leave WoW or EQ for any reason other than the life of the game... both of them ran their course, they aged beyond their graphics engines, people knew the ins and outs of the combat engine. aside from tacking on more and more adds, with more and more hp to grind through, they weren't making the encounters harder. Though WoW still has some room for that, given they got a late start on raid non-combat mechanics.

 

I think, barring a miracle, you can stick a fork in SWTOR as well. It's going to be labeled a bust by going F2P. People don't usually stop/avoid an MMO because of money... $15 a month is cheap for the time spent playing. Time is why they avoid it. They don't want to spend time developing a toon on a game that isn't going to involve them for years, especailly if the next great thing could be coming down the pike at any minute (Whether it is, or not, or evern rumored to be) and they want to be free to get in the door on day 1.

 

I suspect F2P will do more harm than good to SWTOR. Too many people can make throw away accounts to be a tool somewhere somehow and not care... Too many will quit becuse "F2P games have a lower quality and support level" and they won't get as many new free players and subs to overcome what they lose when they get the stigma of F2P.

[Goretzu]

Today's MMORPG player is capricious. TBH, not sure any company is going to be able to make "the MMORPG" that will satisfy the current customer base.

 

I don't buy that there has been this massive social change to humanity since 1998 (when you look at the history of humanity, humans behaved the same way they do now 10,000+ years ago). People are still people, give them what they want and they'll be hooked.

 

What has changed is game companies spending exponentially more cash to deliver less innovation and length of play.

 

Titan will be interesting, to see if Blizzard just try to make WoW 2 or make something new and different.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Goretzu