Voice overs potentially ToRs downfall?

[jkasdorf]

Well they should have done that initially.

 

I really don't understand why they needed celebrity voice actors at all.

 

Established professionals are generally easier to work with because it's not their first rodeo so to speak. It means that it should take less time to get the good takes of each line.

 

Some of the voice actors they used have also been actors they have used in previous games that Bioware developed. I think in those actors' cases, it could have actually been cheaper if they had already been working with them on something else.

 

I get why they didn't just grab a bunch of people who weren't trained to keep the costs down; in this game there is not very many areas where you feel one character really sounds good while the others don't, but it's apparent in games with one or two professionals that you do get what you pay for.

[Blackavaar]

Well they should have done that initially.

 

I really don't understand why they needed celebrity voice actors at all.

 

They did do it initially. They recorded years worth of voice work with good actors because, I'm sorry, but voice work is not as easy as some of you seem to think. Not everyone has the voice for it. Not everyone can say the lines with the emotion you want to hear. That's why they got actual actors instead of dolling out the voice work out to people in their office or hiring people off the street.

 

Edited September 4, 2012 by Blackavaar

[Kyriosgundam]

People also tend to forget that a major cause of the falling Sub numbers is all of the negativity that people have been reading on the forums here. I had to talk at least over a dozen friends into sticking with the game all because of the negativity that's been posted here. They have enjoyed everything about this game except for the majority of the negative posts that have been showing up here. I agree that EA has screwed up BioWare since they aquired it 6 yrs ago. But then again thats what they do best same with Activision screwing up its sub companies. Also with the new update 1.4 they punish PvE only players like me? all because the PvP players complained doesnt seem fair at all. However I wont stop playing TOR its the first MMO since FFXI to actually challenge me thats why I plan to stick with it.

[FreePrometheus]

Established professionals are generally easier to work with because it's not their first rodeo so to speak. It means that it should take less time to get the good takes of each line.

 

Some of the voice actors they used have also been actors they have used in previous games that Bioware developed. I think in those actors' cases, it could have actually been cheaper if they had already been working with them on something else.

 

I get why they didn't just grab a bunch of people who weren't trained to keep the costs down; in this game there is not very many areas where you feel one character really sounds good while the others don't, but it's apparent in games with one or two professionals that you do get what you pay for.

 

^ Jkasdorf is right ^

Edited September 4, 2012 by FreePrometheus

[miglor]

Voice overs was exciting the first week of the game. Since then, I've space-barred as quickly as I can through everything.

 

I agree all this voice overs is killing TOR's budget and increasing their content time-table tremendously.

 

BW - I would be fine if you just had subtitles for everything and just skip all the useless voice overs.

[Kyriosgundam]

They did do it initially. They recorded years worth of voice work with good actors because, I'm sorry, but voice work is not as easy as some of you seem to think. Not everyone has the voice for it. Not everyone can say the lines with the emotion you want to hear. That's why they got actual actors instead of dolling out the voice work out to people in their office or hiring people off the street.

 

 

I agree an example is the Male Voice actor for Commander Shepard in the Mass Effect Games. Jennifer Hale who did the Female Voice over for the Character did a much better job getting the emotions of the character across than Mark Meer did. Some actors are better at Voice acting than Acting in front of a camera or on stage. In fact many Voice Actors spend more time in a sound studio than in front of a camera or on a set. Another example is Peter Cullen who did the Voice over for Optimus Prime in the Transformer Movies as well as in the 1980's Animated Series. Also if you pay close attention many of the Character voice overs in TOR are done by actors who have done previous BioWare games which help keep costs down. A few examples : Trooper (Female): Jennifer Hale (Who also did the female version of Shepard in the Mass Effect Trilogy). The Voice Actress who did Vette was the one who did Mission Veo from KOTOR I. Must I go on? People forget that voice acting requires much more talent than acting on a stage or in front of a camera does, because it is alot harder to get a characters emotions across by strictly using someones voice than it is through Voice and body language combined.

[Insomnio]

People also tend to forget that a major cause of the falling Sub numbers is all of the negativity that people have been reading on the forums here. I had to talk at least over a dozen friends into sticking with the game all because of the negativity that's been posted here. They have enjoyed everything about this game except for the majority of the negative posts that have been showing up here. I agree that EA has screwed up BioWare since they aquired it 6 yrs ago. But then again thats what they do best same with Activision screwing up its sub companies. Also with the new update 1.4 they punish PvE only players like me? all because the PvP players complained doesnt seem fair at all. However I wont stop playing TOR its the first MMO since FFXI to actually challenge me thats why I plan to stick with it.

 

 

The failing sub numbers hardly have to do with any negative critique of the game on a forum. People play through, see what the game is and then decide if it is worth staying, especially when you have to commit to pay2play. Its not worth it for a lot of people.

 

BW has stated that "40% of the players who left stated that sub cost was the barrier to them staying". Im sure thats close to true, but I wonder what the other 60% said about the game? Im quite sure it was not "I really like TOR, its a good game, but the forums made me quit."

 

Im not sure what you found challenging, it is really easy to get to the level cap, and then have nothing to do in game- and THAT is what drove out a lot of players. They effectively beat the game, and therefore felt it was time to move on.

[Blackavaar]

Voice overs was exciting the first week of the game. Since then, I've space-barred as quickly as I can through everything.

 

I agree all this voice overs is killing TOR's budget and increasing their content time-table tremendously.

 

BW - I would be fine if you just had subtitles for everything and just skip all the useless voice overs.

 

Again, see my post above.

 

They don't have to record new voice over work every time they make new content. The voice over work is done. It's just a matter of editing it in.

 

And personally, since I've played this game, I find it hard to go back to reading a bunch of text in other games. Sure, I know you don't actually read it. You skip that too. But I actually like to know what the story is instead of just finding out the objective and bum rushing my way to it. Maybe that's just me.

 

Edited September 5, 2012 by Blackavaar

[LogicalPremise]

People also tend to forget that a major cause of the falling Sub numbers is all of the negativity that people have been reading on the forums here. I had to talk at least over a dozen friends into sticking with the game all because of the negativity that's been posted here. They have enjoyed everything about this game except for the majority of the negative posts that have been showing up here. I agree that EA has screwed up BioWare since they aquired it 6 yrs ago. But then again thats what they do best same with Activision screwing up its sub companies. Also with the new update 1.4 they punish PvE only players like me? all because the PvP players complained doesnt seem fair at all. However I wont stop playing TOR its the first MMO since FFXI to actually challenge me thats why I plan to stick with it.

 

Your entire post is .. well.

 

First, if your think the reason sub numbers are falling is because of "negativity", you are not even trying to ask yourself what is driving it. If there are people who have complaints about the game, what do you want them to do?

 

Let us be blunt: Bioware has stated they would do things they have not done, openly stated they would introduce elements they have not bothered to do, lied about the game never going F2P and not bothered to respond to literally hundreds of threads with key and critical issues in favor of blog posts that are in corporate legal safe speak. There is no part of this since launch that they've handled with the PR or acumen I'd expect from a first-year intern, much less a major development studio. THAT's why there's negativity.

 

Negativity on the forums only affects the small percentage of people who bother to read said forums, and that is not a majority of the people. EVERY MMO has negativity on the forums. Every single one, unless it's locked down and moderated to crap and beyond. They sent death threats to Star Trek Online devs and mailed burnt poo bags to Funcom!

 

Second, if you claim you have friends who enjoy "everything in the game except for negative posts", then I'd ask them "why bother reading the forums if that's the only thing that bothers you?" Sorry, this doesn't sound remotely believable.

 

Third, everyone wants to blame EA. I mean, they're the bad guys, right? Except we're told again and again that this is the brilliant insight of Bioware. I strongly doubt EA told them to go and nerf classes, or design armor that looks like Flintstone rags. Has EA messed things up, yeah. But be honest with yourself, Bioware is in no worse position that Cryptic was with Activision, and at least with Star Trek the developers leveled with us and asked us what we thought and got our input and LISTENED to our feedback. And that's under Activision and Perfect World, two of the most evil and greedy companies on the planet!

 

Don't lay this all at EA's feet.

 

Finally, the "nerfs" had nothing to do with PVP players. Go find the thread where PVP players screamed that we needed to nerf overload. You can't because it didn't happen. I'll tell you why this happened: they are nerfing classes to death in prep for the F2P transition. I suspect they'll expand the level cap and put back in skills or add new useful skills above said level increase, which is only available to paid players. It's nothing new, we've seen this in F2P conversions before.

 

As to the whole Voice thing, so as not to derail the thread:

 

Yes, we're aware there is years of voice over left to build new content with. That's missing the point.

 

The game actually operated on the idea that people would want to level through 8 class stories and repeat quests...just because of VO. That's not a pillar to build an MMO on. It *hasn't* retained subs and it *hasn't* kept people from being disappointed in other failings of the game.

 

Are they nice? Yeah, they are a refreshing change, and often quite funny. Oddly enough, the Secret World uses them as well, to great effect. TSW also tossed in non-voiced smaller quests to provide simpler filler content. (Not that TSW is any great shakes either, that combat is just fail all around, ugh).

 

What VO can't do by itself is force people to be interested in it. VO doesn't satisfy the people who want better crafting, better PVP, better raids, or even better RP and socialization. As part of a bigger plan it works, but as game with no sandbox , no RvR, no indepth crafting -- all it does is frustrate.

 

They could have spent a portion of that budget on any number of things, like maybe more QA people to catch bugs, or more robust design work for immediate content updates. That's the frustration.

 

I don't think they're TOR's downfall, so much as they are no silver bullet that will save it.

[Vandicus]

 

Finally, the "nerfs" had nothing to do with PVP players. Go find the thread where PVP players screamed that we needed to nerf overload. You can't because it didn't happen. I'll tell you why this happened: they are nerfing classes to death in prep for the F2P transition. I suspect they'll expand the level cap and put back in skills or add new useful skills above said level increase, which is only available to paid players. It's nothing new, we've seen this in F2P conversions before.

 

Mercs/commandoes get an interrupt.

 

Sorcs/sages get a major force speed buff.

 

Deception got a majorly needed buff.

Ops/scoundrels got a minor buff to their stealth.

 

Overall all the classes that were tweaked, were buffed, not nerfed.

 

And no class was nerfed in any meaningful way for end game content. You might be able to argue that soloing received a mild nerf in the forms of using knockbacks on lots of mobs, but end game pve was not nerfed.

[LordArtemis]

I seem to remember the devs saying several times that they have enough Voice Over work already completed and ready to go for content for years to come. Plus many of the voice over clips can be used (and already have been) for multiple missions. In other words they won't need to hire anyone for voice acting for a quite a while. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

 

I'd be highly suspect of ANYTHING that resembles lip service as much as promises that they have "VO in the bank" so to speak.

 

They seemed to serve quite a bit of pure and utter BS to us during development and post launch, and we seemed to eagerly eat it up.

 

I call shenanigans. Where is the content? Lost half their subs...could have released it to stem the tide if they, in fact, really had it.

[Vandicus]

I'd be highly suspect of ANYTHING that resembles lip service as much as promises that they have "VO in the bank" so to speak.

 

They seemed to serve quite a bit of pure and utter BS to us during development and post launch, and we seemed to eagerly eat it up.

 

I call shenanigans. Where is the content? Lost half their subs...could have released it to stem the tide if they, in fact, really had it.

 

 

Writing and voice acting the dialogue is quite easy comparative to actually making the game, or adding content. Since conversations for the first five new ops from the game(which includes 3 haven't even heard of yet) were long ago data mined, I do not think it would be unsafe to believe that they've got a lot of voice overs saved somewhere.

[LordArtemis]

Mercs/commandoes get an interrupt.

 

Sorcs/sages get a major force speed buff.

 

Deception got a majorly needed buff.

Ops/scoundrels got a minor buff to their stealth.

 

Overall all the classes that were tweaked, were buffed, not nerfed.

 

And no class was nerfed in any meaningful way for end game content. You might be able to argue that soloing received a mild nerf in the forms of using knockbacks on lots of mobs, but end game pve was not nerfed.

 

Nerfing knockback is not only a MAJOR nerf to solo players, it also restricts one of the few enjoyable limited physics abilities in the game.

 

Not only is that a huge mistake IMO, it's pretty foolish as well. Simply nerf its use in PVP. It is astounding that this team has not learned the most basic MMO design skills that have been in use for 5 years now.

 

Maybe they were unaware that you could nerf abilities in PVP only...and also in raids or group play.

 

Now that is assuming that there is not some unknown game mechanic prevents selective nerfs. I suppose thats possible, but pretty unlikely.

[Insomnio]

I'd be highly suspect of ANYTHING that resembles lip service as much as promises that they have "VO in the bank" so to speak.

 

They seemed to serve quite a bit of pure and utter BS to us during development and post launch, and we seemed to eagerly eat it up.

 

I call shenanigans. Where is the content? Lost half their subs...could have released it to stem the tide if they, in fact, really had it.

 

It is a pretty suspect statement.

 

Then again, if they stay on the current content release schedule of once a year VO quest additions, they may very well have enough banked content for years!

[Blackavaar]

I'd be highly suspect of ANYTHING that resembles lip service as much as promises that they have "VO in the bank" so to speak.

 

They seemed to serve quite a bit of pure and utter BS to us during development and post launch, and we seemed to eagerly eat it up.

 

I call shenanigans. Where is the content? Lost half their subs...could have released it to stem the tide if they, in fact, really had it.

 

Consider this. You are paying actors to do voice work for you. You know you will need these voices again later. Should you A) Just get the few hours of voice work you need now and worry about rehiring them again later, assuming that they aren't busy with something else then or perhaps even deceased. Or B) Get the actors to read enough lines to fill out content that you haven't even started on yet?

 

The correct business decision would be B, get as much voice work done as you can while you have the actor in your studio, and since that is what they said they did I will take them at their word.

 

BioWare may have made some mistakes in creating this game, but getting the voice work done was not one of them.

 

[Vandicus]

Nerfing knockback is not only a MAJOR nerf to solo players, it also restricts one of the few enjoyable limited physics abilities in the game.

 

Not only is that a huge mistake IMO, it's pretty foolish as well. Simply nerf its use in PVP. It is astounding that this team has not learned the most basic MMO design skills that have been in use for 5 years now.

 

Maybe they were unaware that you could nerf abilities in PVP only...and also in raids or group play.

 

Now that is assuming that there is not some unknown game mechanic prevents selective nerfs. I suppose thats possible, but pretty unlikely.

 

The PvE has been destroyed to promote pvp balance belief with the released 1.4 balance changes is still silly. Yet for some reason the myth is spreading like wildfire.

 

Yeah they'd probably be best off separating PvE and PvP skill effects. I don't think its as bad a nerf to solo leveling as you assert though. I usually solo level and what I mainly use that ability for is as an additional interrupt(on my sage). On classes with full interrupts I barely used it at all. If I'm not tanking my companion is tanking, so what do I need a pushback for?

[LordArtemis]

The PvE has been destroyed to promote pvp balance belief with the released 1.4 balance changes is still silly. Yet for some reason the myth is spreading like wildfire.

 

Yeah they'd probably be best off separating PvE and PvP skill effects. I don't think its as bad a nerf to solo leveling as you assert though. I usually solo level and what I mainly use that ability for is as an additional interrupt(on my sage). On classes with full interrupts I barely used it at all. If I'm not tanking my companion is tanking, so what do I need a pushback for?

 

I'm not aware of this myth you speak of. I am aware, however, that the limited physics in the game is a solo players favorite if you spend any time outside this forum. Knockback and knockoffs are listed in the top 5 reasons the game is fun to play solo wise...let's face it, its as close to force unleashed as any MMO is going to get.

 

Nerfing any fun solo mechanic for the sake of more hardcore players is NEVER a good idea no matter how you slice it. Other MMOs have learned this lesson the hard way and have corrected this thinking, others have found ways to design the game so changes to one playstyle does not effect the other. It's basic modern MMO design.

 

Were not talking about functionality here. Were talking about appeal. Something this game lacks a bit too much for a modern MMO.

 

Could it be a non-issue? Sure. But was a wise move to make a change that effects all play styles?

 

Never.

[Insomnio]

Consider this. You are paying actors to do voice work for you. You know you will need these voices again later. Should you A) Just get the few hours of voice work you need now and worry about rehiring them again later, assuming that they aren't busy with something else then or perhaps even deceased. Or B) Get the actors to read enough lines to fill out content that you haven't even started on yet?

 

The correct business decision would be B, get as much voice work done as you can while you have the actor in your studio, and since that is what they said they did I will take them at their word.

 

BioWare may have made some mistakes in creating this game, but getting the voice work done was not one of them.

 

 

You are really optimistic and perhaps gullible about the games development.

 

Why do you think the developers have gone mostly silent about content and F2P issues? They are not sure of the future of the game. Most future content they had "planned" was probably cancelled, and what was already completed is to be parsed out into the "every 6 weeks" content.

[Vandicus]

I'm not aware of this myth you speak of. I am aware, however, that the limited physics in the game is a solo players favorite if you spend any time outside this forum. Knockback and knockoffs are listed in the top 5 reasons the game is fun to play solo wise...let's face it, its as close to force unleashed as any MMO is going to get.

 

Nerfing any fun solo mechanic for the sake of more hardcore players is NEVER a good idea no matter how you slice it. Other MMOs have learned this lesson the hard way and have corrected this thinking, others have found ways to design the game so changes to one playstyle does not effect the other. It's basic modern MMO design.

 

Were not talking about functionality here. Were talking about appeal. Something this game lacks a bit too much for a modern MMO.

 

Could it be a non-issue? Sure. But was a wise move to make a change that effects all play styles?

 

Never.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=528763

 

Its already spread to in game discussion.

 

Again, I agree with your statement that the game should have separated pve/pvp effects for skills, so that they can be balanced separately. Your statements regarding what makes it good for solo, the appeal more than its actual usefulness are also reasonable. I still miss my pre 1.2 death from above. I always find myself wishing that it had its original radius when I fight trash.

[LordArtemis]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=528763

 

Its already spread to in game discussion.

 

Again, I agree with your statement that the game should have separated pve/pvp effects for skills, so that they can be balanced separately. Your statements regarding what makes it good for solo, the appeal more than its actual usefulness are also reasonable. I still miss my pre 1.2 death from above. I always find myself wishing that it had its original radius when I fight trash.

 

...it is one mechanic, often overlooked in this game but in my opinion just as important...visual appeal and fun factor for specials. Since this is a Star Wars game the exceptions are higher in this respect. Its also one of the reason I thought nerfing health for mobs across the board but adding more mobs with less XP would have been better for solo play, as well as individual (companion less) buffs.

[Skoobie]

According to this old article, taken from an old developer's blog, VO's are mostly up to Lucas Arts:

 

"BioWare would be responsible for providing the reams and reams of scripts, as well as, managing the writing/VO production schedule. The LucasArts team would be responsible for finding the actors, recording and post processing the dialogue."

 

http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/48954/Star-Wars-The-Old-Republic-Voice-Overs

[EJedi]

So where is all this new VO/cutscene content? I mean its easy to make so why are the new dailies terminal quests? Why is the new expansion comming without new class stories... even though there is a level cap increase?

 

Why haven't bugs been fixed that we reported back in July of 2011?

 

Don't ask me to explain why the Bioware TOR team has failed so miserably.

 

I'm just saying that any decent group of developers, who cared about the product, could use the tools to produce content in a timely manner if management allowed them to.

[Soluss]

Why haven't bugs been fixed that we reported back in July of 2011?

 

Don't ask me to explain why the Bioware TOR team has failed so miserably.

 

I'm just saying that any decent group of developers, who cared about the product, could use the tools to produce content in a timely manner if management allowed them to.

 

Well that obviously isnt the case is it?

[Kashley]

Just my own two cents. BioWare shot themselves in the foot with VO. They placed all their bets on VO being the 'revolutionary' change to MMO's thinking it would keep players involved to the extent that they neglected staples most MMO players were used to.

 

Now, they need VO to keep whats left of the population engaged in the only good selling point of SWTOR; story. But because they failed on just about everything else they are not generating the sub revenue to develop it.

 

Its entirely hilarious.

[aristein]

I doubt that voice overs will be the real cause of swtor having trouble making as much money as they hoped. I believe it is very clear that BW were premium rpg makers, but absolutely new to making an mmo. So, they made a great online ARPG, but are still working on making a great MMO. That is to be expected for anyone that thinks about it as their first MMO attempt. But I don't think anyone did. The masses and game industry in general just saw the budget and big names and figured that it would come out a great MMO. But the MMO part was a learning process for Bioware, plain and simple. They made a great immersive rpg (the leveling, the world, the animations, the immersion, etc), but are still learning as a company how to make a great MMO.

 

When you look at all the problems, I think it can all be attributed to a company learning for the first time how to devolop all the MMO features, balancing, updates, etc that gamers expect from a grade A mmo today.

 

- They launched the game and quickly discovered lots of bugs and broken features (lack of MMO testing experience)

- They spent too much resources on story and figured they would have time to develop more endgame content as they went along (inexperience with how quickly players will chew through content, the need for replayable content, etc).

-They did a poor job managing expectations and promised too much saying things like "Bioware doesn't release games until they are done". But MMO's are never "done", they are all a work in progress....ever improving, ever expanding.

 

Bottomline: BW is learning how to make a great MMO by doing it.....and that is a process. And, having tons of investor's money (EA) invested in their project just makes this process much more difficult as investors will always demand a say when they have so much of their money at stake and end up sticking their ignorant fingers in the pie while it is being baked.