Why Bioware should shift most of their focus to PvP

[Tickdoff-Tank]

I think it is relevant. I didn't make the thread to debate the amount of people posting. I made the thread to debate what aspect of the game is worth developing. I just used the amount of people posting as evidence that more people are PvPing. He is using the number of logins as evidence that more people are PvEing.

 

However, my biggest issue with the data that he posted is that people on PvE and RP servers also PvP. I personally play on a PvE server, and would say that I PvP more than PvE on a 10:1 ratio. The only real difference between the different server types is that you can PvP in the black hole on a PvP server. However, as others have posted the PvP community is typically more vocal. So again, I dunno what to believe on this issue and that's why I made this thread.

 

I don't care for PvP, so I don't have a dog in that fight. My only issues is the way the info was presented. The number of people posting on the PvP forums compared to the PvE focused forums is not a valid metric to determine which direction the game should go.

 

If the devs look at all the data that they have access to and then determine that more PvP is what they need then I wil accept that. ANd I think they SHOULD add more things for PvPers to enjoy, just as I think they should add more for the PvE crowd. Just because I prefer PvE does not mean I want the state of PvP to drive people away, but any changes to the PvP system will have little or no impact on my game experience.

[Journeyer]

50 levels

15 Flashpoints

3 Ops

 

...4 warzones?

 

Nope. PvP may be the most vocal crowd, and the most displeased crowd, but that's perfectly understandable given the miniscule percentage of content devoted to them. The solution is not to spend another 5 years and 200 million dollars trying to bring up the PvP content.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Journeyer

[Tickdoff-Tank]

In just 2009, SOE reported that 65% of all SWG players used their forums.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/forums/post/3197726#3197726

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2114515

 

Very nice to know. I would love to see more info from other sources as well. According to the page that you linked the 65% was also of a rather small number of subscribers, and that makes me wonder. Not in a bad way It just makes me wonder what % we could expect from other games as well.

 

I still doubt that TOR has anywhere near 65% using the forums, and 1 data point does not change the industry standard. But it is still good info to contrast with what we had.

[Hessen]

Whilst not an MMO, but a long term franchise with active forum members and interaction from the developers. Football Manager 2012 sold about 5 million copies, and has 170,000 forum users, before even taking in to account how many of those users post regularly. Edited August 31, 2012 by Hessen

[Gavin_Kelvar]

50 levels

15 Flashpoints

3 Ops

 

...4 warzones?

 

Nope. PvP may be the most vocal crowd, and the most displeased crowd, but that's perfectly understandable given the miniscule percentage of content devoted to them. The solution is not to spend another 5 years and 200 million dollars trying to bring up the PvP content.

 

This. As I see it the game is already devoted to PvE. Not that they should stop developing stuff for PvP but I think it is far too late in the game to alter the focus from PvE to PvP.

[Ashivauto]

I could care less how many people post or dont post on the forums... But to say that pvp is not a big part of this game or any mmo or just games in general is plain ignorant..

 

In the first few days of release over 44 million wzs played. That alone says pvp is bigger than u think. Is pve bigger? Absolutely. It has to be. But to act as if the pvp community is so small that focusing on pvp content is a bad thing, is just ignoring the obvious facts.

 

Alot of players have left, more so than still play... They didnt feel paying for a single player game,monthly,was worth it... And y would anyone pay $50-150 plus $15 a month for a single player game with co op option? I can do that on my xbox....

 

As well i can pvp on my xbox and ps3 without a subscription... Xbox live has one of the largest gaming communities and pvp communities, so much they made a professional gaming league, not pve though but pvp..

 

If u r a pvper, once u hit 50 and have ur gear there is nothing left to do... U cant neglect ur pvp community and expect players to stay... There has to b incentive for a player to continue subing... For me if the pvp isnt there im not willing to pay to play a single player co op game

Edited August 31, 2012 by Ashivauto

[ProsaicProse]

I didn't join this game for the PvP. So I doubt having them focus on it would be grand idea for keeping me around.

[Paintcheck]

This. As I see it the game is already devoted to PvE. Not that they should stop developing stuff for PvP but I think it is far too late in the game to alter the focus from PvE to PvP.

 

100% that and if it happened I know a lot of people (including myself) who would leave. PVP blows, it's boring, repetitive and ****** unless you have a coordinated guild or something. For people who don't it's just stupid. I've had maybe 1 close game in pick up PVP (in 9 months of playing) every single other game is one side rolls over the other and that's not fun.

 

This game was never supposed to be about PVP.

[randalthorr]

I could care less how many people post or dont post on the forums... But to say that pvp is not a big part of this game or any mmo or just games in general is plain ignorant..

 

In the first few days of release over 44 million wzs played. That alone says pvp is bigger than u think. Is pve bigger? Absolutely. It has to be. But to act as if the pvp community is so small that focusing on pvp content is a bad thing, is just ignoring the obvious facts.

 

Alot of players have left, more so than still play... They didnt feel paying for a single player game,monthly,was worth it... And y would anyone pay $50-150 plus $15 a month for a single player game with co op option? I can do that on my xbox....

 

As well i can pvp on my xbox and ps3 without a subscription... Xbox live has one of the largest gaming communities and pvp communities, so much they made a professional gaming league, not pve though but pvp..

 

If u r a pvper, once u hit 50 and have ur gear there is nothing left to do... U cant neglect ur pvp community and expect players to stay... There has to b incentive for a player to continue subing... For me if the pvp isnt there im not willing to pay to play a single player co op game

 

This is why I unsubbed. Meh.. At this point I don't really think Bioware is going to start addressing our concerns in regards to pvp.

[uziforyou]

PvP section of the forum:

37,260 Total Threads, 663,055 Total Posts

 

Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions section of the forum:

6,159 Total Threads, 66,567 Total Posts

 

While not a perfect metric, it should indicate what the majority of the player base has a vested interest in.

 

Edit: Please stop posting numbers like only 5-10% of the playerbase does such and such unless you have a link to where you got your statistics from. The only numbers I will be posting are above and those can be validated by going to http://www.swtor.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=3

 

As an avid PvPer it would not take much to make me happy. New maps is all it would take. They don't even have to be AWESOME new maps, they just have to be NEW maps. Look at Call of Duty; they sell a game for $60 and then charge $15 every quarter for 4-5 new maps. It seems like this would fit in very well with the new F2P model.

 

Ridiculous association of information. Every game, and I mean every game that has PvE elements and PvP elements while having separate forums for these activities has more postings from PvP'ers. This absolutely proves didly squat about the amount of interest in that part of the game (most likely becuase PvP'ers tend to be very vocal when they perceive something providing an advantage/disadvantage to one group or another but that's a discussion for another day).

 

You're literally comparing apples and oranges as being the same fruit. Doesn't work there, doesn't work here.

[Ashivauto]

This is why I unsubbed. Meh.. At this point I don't really think Bioware is going to start addressing our concerns in regards to pvp.

 

I havent unsubbed yet, but im hanging by a thread... But i havent played in 2 weeks now coz im tired of the same 4 wzs... Ive been playing rift, hoping for swtor to do something that makes me stay...

[nellosmomishot]

50 levels

15 Flashpoints

3 Ops

 

...4 warzones?

 

Nope. PvP may be the most vocal crowd, and the most displeased crowd, but that's perfectly understandable given the miniscule percentage of content devoted to them. The solution is not to spend another 5 years and 200 million dollars trying to bring up the PvP content.

 

I was only referring to endgame content. That means operations and warzones. Moreover, you can level via PvP. I don't think this game tilts overwhelmingly one way or the other YET, even when you try and spin it like that.

 

Future content coming out includes 1 new warzone and 1 new operation. I really think these people that think this game is PvE heavy are delusional. It's been a pretty even mix so far.

Edited August 31, 2012 by nellosmomishot

[Hessen]

I was only referring to endgame content. That means operations and warzones. Moreover, you can level via PvP. I don't think this game tilts overwhelmingly one way or the other YET, even when you try and spin it like that.

 

Variety and amount of PvE content compared to PvP is undeniable. Both whilst levelling, and at end game.

 

Class quests, side quests, heroic quests, space missions, dailies, flashpoints, operations, datacrons, codex entries...

 

vs

 

4 repeated warzones.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Hessen

[Elyx]

Without evidence it means nothing. The metric I used may be flawed (which I admit in the first post), but at least it is backed up by irrefutable evidence. You have provided none. You stated your opinion (until you post a link to a major MMO dev stating that it is 5-10% it is ONLY your opinion and nothing more).

 

your metric is not flawed. It is unusable. Period.

 

I can go over to the PvP forums right now, and post 1000 times, and it will prove...that I posted 1000x. your numbers will look better, but in no way will it "prove" that more people play PvP then PvE (I don't play PvP in this game at all). Plus, if you look at the actual posts, they will further be broken down into small groups of people that post ALLOT...and then a large group of people that post once or twice.

 

It has no capability to prove anything about player populations friend. your argument is valid, though your data is not even close to being appropriate.

 

read the posts in this thread. About 3/4 of them are from the exact same people. so if you take out all those posts, and count all of us who are spamming in here as one post, this thread would probably only be a few pages long. that in itself drastically skews your numbers. Add in that historically, PvP players are always more vocal, and this skews it even more.

 

It's just not the right data man. You have a viewpoint, and your looking for data to prove it, rather then seeing data that shows a point. the only thing that your data shows is that there are more posts in the PvP forum then the PvE ones. which occurs in every MMO I've played...and I've played a few.

 

Problem is...I support your desire for more and better PvP. If they fixed the broke-a%$ system that they currently have in place for lvl 50 PvP, i may be interested in trying it out. I'm not arguing your point, Im saying that the numbers don't match based on historically known information. you're saying that the number of posts (not even the # of posters) in the PvP forums is proof that more people play PvP. and there is NOWHERE in the industry that this is used as a basis for statistics. at all. And I'm saying that historically, the amount of people (not posts...PEOPLE) that post in the forums is small in comparison with the amount of people that play...and this has historically been shown by real statistics.

[DaWaffle]

Just because they make the most noise doesn't make them a majority.

[Ashivauto]

Just because they make the most noise doesn't make them a majority.

 

I agree with that, but also just because they arent the majority doesnt mean their money spends any different and should be neglected... Havent we learned anything from the civil rights movement lol

[discosoc]

MMO's were so much more fun before the FPS Bro crowd moved in.

[Moondragon]

No. Just No.

PvPers are the loudest. That is all.

[RyanRhino]

I wish Bioware would run a poll for their *existing* players, instead of just a poll for players who're in the process of unsubscribing.

 

.

 

Post this to the suggestion box, I completely agree.

[cycao]

I was only referring to endgame content. That means operations and warzones. Moreover, you can level via PvP. I don't think this game tilts overwhelmingly one way or the other YET, even when you try and spin it like that.

 

Future content coming out includes 1 new warzone and 1 new operation. I really think these people that think this game is PvE heavy are delusional. It's been a pretty even mix so far.

 

I think it is fairly obvious that this game tilts towards PvE and I do not know how you can argue against it. They took out Ilum and said they will find out a way to work it back in which they have not. All they have to do to make OPvP easy is to put the missions terminals in outlaws den and Ilum and maybe shrink up the size. But with this shady engine they probably couldn't handle 30v30.

 

There is a more gear coming for PvE and all we get is a mainhand and a weapon. They pushed back ranked which I was ok with but are pushing back season one and cross server queues. Its things like that which make me a firm believer that PvP takes a back seat.

 

I don't know just some things I have observed over the first 9 months of the game.

[Scorpienne]

Thank you Paige. I appreciate you taking the time to post a response with legitimate numbers. I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion but I will respond later after I've had some time to think.

 

Edit: This is the only legitimate counter to my argument that I have seen so far. However, I'm not sure if your metric is any better than mine. I play on a PvE server and spend most of my time PvPing. There is little difference in terms of PvP participation with regards to what type of server you play on, especially in this game where the only PvP is instanced PvP.

 

I appreciate your inclination for polite discourse, and I completely agree that knowing how many people are playing on which type of server is an imperfect metric of the importance of PvE vs PvP. By choosing a PvE or PvP server, the player makes a basic "mindset" choice. My argument rests on the assumption that the people who really like PvP are more inclined to be actively playing on a PvP server. That may be an incorrect assumption.

 

I completely agree with your analysis of the # of forum threads. That's plain data and I commend any efforts to talk about data rather than opinions. My personal experience leads me to belive that the forums are an imperfect and biased "slice" of the game-playing community. I'm in a guild of 100+ RP-PvErs and it's only a couple of us that will get on the forums. 90% of our guild wouldn't enter these forums with a CDC BL4 containment suit!

 

No one but BW has the numbers to really say how much time people spend doing PvE vs PvP. We just don't have a good metric here on the outside. Even if they *did* share that data, that still wouldn't answer the question. Does the PvP or the PvE cause more people to subscribe? Which is more fun to more players? You may spend most of your time PvEing, but PvP is what *really* makes you happy. That's going to take some serious, well designed, statistically- and epidemiologically-sound surveys to get at.

 

 

Paige

[Blackavaar]

Um, the majority of PvE players are on this forum, pal. The General forum. Take a survey. There are more PvEers than PvPers.

 

[Scorpienne]

Very interesting info, but the point others have been making in this thread is not about the number of people subscribing/logging in, it is about the % of people that use the forums. That does not make your data any less interesting, but it does not speak to the point that people were debating.

 

Edit: I agree with your statement that PvE is more important based on the numbers you provided, and I do not dispute them at all. But I maintain that those numbers are not very useful in determining the % of those players that are actively using the forums.

 

Ah... if your interest is which segment of the community uses the forums more, I will readily agree that the PvP forums have *far* more posts than the others. This trend is also reflected in the server group forums (LINK) if you look at the numbers of both threads and posts.

 

I understood the point of the original point to be "Why Bioware should shift most of their focus to PvP" (as the original title of the thread suggests). I happen to disagree with that statement, and I just wanted to point out that though the PvP community is *extremely* vocal, they are about 25% (or less, and dropping) of the active players.

 

In my opinion, it is not in the best interests of the larger SWTOR-playing community nor in the best interests of BW/EA for bioware to "shift most of their focus to PvP".

 

 

Paige

[SawneyRath]

Yes, because it means there is that many more people complaining. Don't forget that the PvE forums were rife with complaints about the pillar bosses not working in EV, among other things.

 

I personally would really like to see a breakdown of player time spent in warzone vs. player time spent in flashpoint / operation.

 

Or it just means the SAME people are crying a lot....

[Elyx]

I agree with that, but also just because they aren't the majority doesn't mean their money spends any different and should be neglected... Haven't we learned anything from the civil rights movement lol

 

I agree. I also support the idea that if they have PvP in the game, that they should develop it well. And I agree that PvP players should have a say in the development of the PvP. Most of my enlargement was against the idea that PvP players were the "largest percentage of the population" and the silly example the OP gave to prove this historically inaccurate data.

 

our biggest issue is most MMO companies are hush about actual figures like this....I've browse serious research blogs on the subject, and most companies wont give it out....a few will "allow" people to ask the questions on the forums, but the responses are voluntary....and usually small, and not the greatest representation of the population. so most the data we get is from Dev blogs, or articles.

 

to give credit to TUX, SOA did publish some good numbers on SWG, probably one of the best publicy distributed examples. Oly downside is SWG was a totally different game then this one...it's one of the examples that will show a heavy PvP population BECAUSE it's a PVP game. open world PvP (endless actually), is the kind of environment that attracts PvP players. AIon is very similar..I bet that if you polled AIon, it would have extremely high percentage of PvP players. but poll a Pve game, like WoW, or LotRO ....or SWtOR (important point here), and you'll see the opposite.

 

PvP games attract PvP players. PvE games attract PvE players. PvE games with optiona PvP attract mostly P)vE players, and a small group of serious PvP players. Aion had a small PvE culture when I was playing it. it didn't have a big one, because it was first and foremost a PvP game.

 

the think about the OP's post is he wants to take a PvE game, and turn it into a PvP game...and he's using nonsensical data to try and back it up. which wont work. there's nothing against making PvP better in this game. But this is one of the big reasons I DIDN'T want PvP in this game. In all actuality, as a player who likes both (if they are designed well), I'd prefer game to focus solely on only one aspect. when you try to put both in the mix, posts like this on pop up.

 

But it is here to stay. PvP that is. and nothing wrong with it being there. but the OP can't call it the "majority", because it simply isn't.