Lightside-Darkside issue

[JediBoxer]

Regarding Jedi Consular and early missions on Coruscant.

 

First mission is the introductory mission on Coruscant, where you meet the Senator. Nice lady for the most part, but I have issues with the outcome choices leading to Darkside and Lightside points gains based on that decision. They're backwards.

 

I'm not sure you're aware, but deposing or forcibly causing a Senator who focuses on improving things for the population, helping refugees, and generally improving the social support structure cannot be good. Yes, she stole money from a gang to run her campaign to get in as a Senator. That is the past, and she stole money from a gang for cripes sake. Who really thinks that's bad, particularly when she doesn't give them what they want and tells them to go fly a kite.

 

She was willing to deal with the expected bounty hunters and assassination attempts that would result from it, (or so she expected, and it probably will happen once she's resigned and no longer such a high profile target), when she went in and never had any intention of keeping her end of the deal.

 

She took the offer to improve her odds against a rich and corrupt competitor and won. Now you want us to force her to ruin her reputation, (with some self-righteous rich folk), and resign.

 

Not to mention sign her death warrant.

 

The second mission is the one where we are forced to look like ignorant arses and hand some agricultural documents, (so much useless tripe really), to the contractor and lie to her, while helping some corrupt senator impose unjust laws on the genral population, including laws that give officials the ability to remove or otherwise hinder the ability of poor people and refugees from the war to find and use temporary housing.

 

The guy would literally kick millions off the planet and drop them on some backwater world like Tatooine without so much as a how-do-you-do if he had the chance. No social housing, no aid, no understanding, and a general doctrine of intolerance. How can this be good. You can tell the only reason the assistant is happy is because he's relieved that the truth is going to stay hidden thanks to the players compliance.

 

So we remove the good and install the bad. I know: Keeping the Peace right? More like implementing laws and Oppressive intolerance to rival the Empire.

 

Speaking of which, the Republic actually looks worse than the Empire in many respects if you play both sides.

 

So yeah, there's two missions that should have the Light-Dark consequences reversed as far as I'm concerned. There are other questionable ones, but those stood out like a sore thumb, they were so blatantly obvious.

 

Who does your Moral decision making anyway?

[Uluain]

1.) She made a corrupt bargain with criminal elements for campaign funding. It is plain that money came from the gangs preying on refugees she claimed to wish to help.

 

2.) She made a commitment falsely, with the intent of reneging on her word.

 

3.) She did all of this covertly. All the Light Side choice does is to reveal the truth. The Jedi doesn't have the authority to dismiss the Senator. Her case goes to the proper Republic channels for justice.

 

I don't see how shielding a corrupt, deceitul Senator from the consequences of her actions by colluding with her shady dealings is a Light Side choice. The writers got this one right.

 

In the second case, we are defending the right of a duly appointed Senator to introduce legislation for open debate on the Senate floor. We are not meant to judge the merits of the legislation, but to defend the democratic process by which it will be considered, debated and voted on by those with that authority to pass or fail.

 

It doesn't matter if it's a bad law. Censoring a valid proposal for regular consideration - the same given to all policy - is wrong.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Uluain

[Zardac_the_Great]

That's not the one I have a problem with. The one I have a problem with is when you are going to expose another Senator's secret bill to sever the Republic's ties to the Jedi, and you get dark side points for making the government that much more transparent.

 

I understand you're stealing something, and I think you should be able to get dark side points for that transaction, but darn it, the people have a right to know what their government is doing.

[Ashu-ri]

That's not the one I have a problem with. The one I have a problem with is when you are going to expose another Senator's secret bill to sever the Republic's ties to the Jedi, and you get dark side points for making the government that much more transparent.

 

I understand you're stealing something, and I think you should be able to get dark side points for that transaction, but darn it, the people have a right to know what their government is doing.

 

That is the one of the quests the OP is referring to. If you take the light path, the page gives you agricultural reports to turn in to the quest giver, rather than the packet that you were going to steal from the droid. I never took the light path on that quest.

[Reynaga]

the point of light side is to allow people to make their own decisions and conclusions, not to impose your will on others and take away their freedom, that is what the sith do.

[Zardac_the_Great]

Which is exactly why the senators need to be exposed in both cases. The people have a right to know and to decide if they want their senators to continue on the course.

[Reynaga]

yes, but using decite to try and do good is still wrong, so while you think you are going a greater good, you are still commiting a wrong doing it, and that will cost you.

[Neverfar]

the point of light side is to allow people to make their own decisions and conclusions, not to impose your will on others and take away their freedom, that is what the sith do.

 

Funny how much the Sith and their forum proponents like to push the idea that the Sith way of life is "freedom".

 

Well, I guess that includes the freedom to utterly strip the freedoms of others and enslave them.

[Zardac_the_Great]

yes, but using decite to try and do good is still wrong, so while you think you are going a greater good, you are still commiting a wrong doing it, and that will cost you.

 

The Jedi are supposed to expose corruption. I totally see where you're coming from, and this is an issue I've debated with myself since I first ran into it. But corruption must be exposed, especially in government, and in this case, this is the only way to do it.

 

And anyway, decieving the person who sent you by bringing something else and lying about it isn't a particularly light sided choice, either.

[theStirge]

Funny how much the Sith and their forum proponents like to push the idea that the Sith way of life is "freedom".

 

Well, I guess that includes the freedom to utterly strip the freedoms of others and enslave them.

 

If you were strong enough, you would be free. That is what the Sith way is all about.

 

"Peace is a lie; there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me."

 

If the lesser people truly had the passion for freedom that they profess, they would be made free through the Force. The Sith rule because they're the only ones who want it bad enough. If you can be defeated, you didn't deserve to be free.

 

How sad that their argument is invalid because midichlorians.

[JediBoxer]

In the first example, the Senator took the money from a gang when they offered it to her in return for future considerations during here campaign. They saw a moment of weakness and decided to take advantage of it to install a Senator that could further their own goals and whom they thought they could control.

 

That was wrong, (evil by intent), and should earn them Darkside points, while the Senator taking that money to fund her campaign was at worst unethical. The fact that she didn't hold to her end of the deal was a deed exonerated by the evil intent of those who offered it. Her intent is good, and so any action to prevent her from acting upon that intent is inherently evil by the virtue of it preventing good from being done.

 

Don't confuse ethics and morality; they are two very different concepts. Ethics define lawful or unlawful actions, where Morals define good or evil intent and actions. Neither one applies to the other except where they happen to be the same. That is very rarely the case as modern justice would indicate.

 

The Jedi code defines the ethical use and coexistence of the Jedi with the force, but it doesn't define the force as a whole. Neither does it define the good or evil ramifications of actions with regard to the force. It is simply a guidline for coexistence with the force in a way that is harmonious in most cases. It is not necessarily always good either, and certainly doesn't dictate what the force would deem good.

 

The Jedi code is passive by nature and directs non-action or limited action to prevent Jedi from falling to the darkside. It places restrictions on a Jedi's activities that are intended to prevent this occurence because once these rules are dismissed it becomes a possibility. Whether it will in fact occur is dependent on the Jedi in question and does not indicate that they will fall or that they commit a dark act in the process.

 

The force indicates that the prevention of good is bad, not that the circumvention of authority is bad. Since authority can be bad, it must then be capable of being circumvented to do good. The Force is Moral, not ethical.

 

In the second example, the Senator clearly intends to secretly pass a bill with the purpose of eliminating the Jedi role within the Republic as a mostly moral force for good. The only reason to do this is to bring about change in the form of corruption.

 

He is also defined as a corrupt senator, and there is some indication of his intentions beyond that bill, and his secrecy and circumvention of democratic process. This may be the emperor of later years for all we know, and we know what became of that. Allowing him to continue unchecked would be an evil act, or at least an act of inaction where one was possible to prevent it, and that is clearly not good.

 

So with two simple acts we change the future of the Republic and ensure the rise of evil within it that will cause so much suffering in years to come that the Force will clearly be aware of it during the course of our actions. If we are aware of it and can see that eventuality, then are we not commiting an act contrary to the nature of the Lightside of the Force?

 

Defining Light-side and Dark-side:

 

The Lightside of the Force is the Force itself. It coincides with the desires of the Force and is harmonious with it. Any act contrary to this is preventative of the desires of the Force, if not necessarily dark in every case.

 

The Darkside of the Force is the corruption of the Force, and contrary to the desires of the Force. It does not wish to be used for evil or to kill, and its use for either of these purposes is then dark.

 

Love and the Force:

 

How can love be contrary to the Force if the Force is good?

 

It isn't. Love often turns to hate, anger, and spite. These are contrary to the Force and as long as they are avoided love is possible, even among Jedi.

 

Negative emotions and hurtful actions derived from these emotions are contrary to the force and they lead to a fall to the Darkside for many who are in tune with it. Everyone is in tune with it, if some only a little, and so everyone is subject to this rule.

 

The Force embodies much of Human nature, but it does not dictate it or determine the choices made by people. It simply responds to them or flows around them. Many of the negative emotions experienced by people are corruptions of natural behaviour and emotions, and so they do not reflect the Force.

 

It is Human nature to get angry, and that is not evil. What you do with it may be.

 

Simple principles, and well defined in Star Wars lore if you've paid attention.

[Ranadiel_Marius]

Her intent is good, and so any action to prevent her from acting upon that intent is inherently evil by the virtue of it preventing good from being done.

 

Ok I am not reading that ridiculously long tirade on morality, but in my skimming I noticed this. This is wrong on two fronts in this case. First off that isn't how morality is portrayed in Star Wars. That is a consequentialism view on the morality of the situation while Star Wars generally is more in line with deontology viewing the morality of the action rather than whether the ends justify the means. Secondly, you don't know that your action is preventing good. Your action may very well result in a more effective senator with better morals being elected resulting more good being done. At the very least you are ensuring that there won't be anymore

 

And honestly how much good is she really doing? It is outright stated that she refused to provide housing, that she promised, to the neediest of Coruscant's citizens. Frankly I think it is likely that the Migrant Merchant Guild militarized into a group of thugs solely in response to her actions as we know they started out looking out for the good of the refugees on the planet.

[JediBoxer]

Ok I am not reading that ridiculously long tirade on morality, but in my skimming I noticed this. This is wrong on two fronts in this case. First off that isn't how morality is portrayed in Star Wars. That is a consequentialism view on the morality of the situation while Star Wars generally is more in line with deontology viewing the morality of the action rather than whether the ends justify the means. Secondly, you don't know that your action is preventing good. Your action may very well result in a more effective senator with better morals being elected resulting more good being done. At the very least you are ensuring that there won't be anymore

 

And honestly how much good is she really doing? It is outright stated that she refused to provide housing, that she promised, to the neediest of Coruscant's citizens. Frankly I think it is likely that the Migrant Merchant Guild militarized into a group of thugs solely in response to her actions as we know they started out looking out for the good of the refugees on the planet.

 

That's just naive. What group of needy citizens has the means to fund a campaign for Senate? She refused them because they were not in need of housing for their poor, but rather of operations HQ that they could use to front their criminal activities.

 

edit: There are also plenty of examples in Star Wars lore than show actions with respect to preventing long term consequences, and Jedi with the foresight and even foreknowledge to see them. Some things are just predictable, and in other cases, sometimes the Force grants knowledge of them to those with the ability to prevent them.

Edited September 2, 2012 by JediBoxer

[alricka]

She is a corrupt politician. She may not have been a bad person but she was corrupt. Allowing her to continue on would lead to a slippery slope where the government and the organized crime would become intertwined. And trust me, when that happens, it ain't pretty. Sure, she may have had good intentions, but corruption is corruption.

[JediBoxer]

She is a corrupt politician. She may not have been a bad person but she was corrupt. Allowing her to continue on would lead to a slippery slope where the government and the organized crime would become intertwined. And trust me, when that happens, it ain't pretty. Sure, she may have had good intentions, but corruption is corruption.

 

I thought the whole point was that she had a lack of support for organized crime and was opposed to it. Of course, that didn't stop me from turning her in the last time through; there will always be someone else afterall. I disagree with her methods, but in all honesty it takes some serious means to get into such a position and I understand why she did it.

 

Delicate sensibilities aside, there really isn't a great deal wrong with it, and I wouldn't call it corruption. Corruption indicates that there is intent to benefit personally, or to benefit someone in favor. That is what would be the case if she had given the Guild what they asked for.

 

But whatever.

 

I did discover the other side of the coin with the Courier Driod, page, and the like. Apparently, the refusal to give him the package only makes him more determined and willing to pursue other means. Didn't predict that, but really, I would have just knocked him out and hauled him out in a carpet.

 

I suppose the Senator was going to pass the bill by normal means, and I did forget it was a Republic rather than a democracy. The people don't really know often what is occuring behind those doors, and it is quite possible the bill would have been thrown out.

 

Now he's mad crazy, and a zealot to boot, and probably more interested in passing the Bill and joining the Sith than the Senator. Actually, it was all Jorguns idea and he seemed quite happy with it.

[alricka]

I thought the whole point was that she had a lack of support for organized crime and was opposed to it. Of course, that didn't stop me from turning her in the last time through; there will always be someone else afterall. I disagree with her methods, but in all honesty it takes some serious means to get into such a position and I understand why she did it.

 

Delicate sensibilities aside, there really isn't a great deal wrong with it, and I wouldn't call it corruption. Corruption indicates that there is intent to benefit personally, or to benefit someone in favor. That is what would be the case if she had given the Guild what they asked for.

 

But whatever.

It's not just about her, though. The whole thing shows that organized crime on Coruscant was cutting deals with elected government officials. It doesn't matter if the said Senator was a good person or a bad person, it doesn't even matter if she honored the deal or not. Connections with organized crime shouldn't be tolerated because if you cover her up, you don't just protect her career; you allow for more such deals to be made in the future. By exposing her and causing a fuss over it, you cut off the rotten parts before it's too late because now there would be much more attention on the Senate and the funding of the Senators.

 

That's my two cents, at least.

[Pubsam]

The OP clearly follows a more utilitarian view of morality if he thinks keeping the shady dealings of an otherwise helpful politician secret is a moral thing to do. For him the ends justify the means.

 

However, this is not true of ALL moral codes, where working toward a greater good would never justify lesser evils. Go read Kant or something if you're curious, just keep in mind that ethics is a field of study, not an objective truth. What is wrong for one culture or mindset is justifiable for another, and the morality used in the game is one mostly consistent mindset, whether you agree with it or not.

 

The LS/DS morality system is NOT utilitarian at all - for Jedis the ends do not justify the means. So while you yourself might view the world through a utilitarian lens and think many DS options are the more moral path (NOTE: this makes things more interesting for me), that does not make the way they assigned the LS/DS choices wrong.

[bobmcbo]

I know of a few other times like that, but none really come to mind. There are a few that make no sense, like when people would rather die than be tortured by the sith- you kill them and get darkside points.

[Ranadiel_Marius]

I know of a few other times like that, but none really come to mind. There are a few that make no sense, like when people would rather die than be tortured by the sith- you kill them and get darkside points.

 

That's because killing, especially someone who can not fight, is almost always a darkside option. As is stated in an early part of the JKstoryline: "Taking a life affects the Living Force--and the one who does the killing." The only n game exceptions really are a couple of BH choices, and those really don't fit with the morality in the rest of the game leading me to believe that they were written as being more about honor/payday rather than LS/DS.

 

And yes this does mean that all our characters probably should be completely DS considering how many mobs we kill, but that just is something that has to be handwaved because it would be a really boring game for LS characters otherwise.