In your educated opinion, what's the fate of this game?

[Innocences]

That would depend on BW and the fickle people who invest. It's a good game, but firing original devs and cutting back on future content will kill it. It's a great game with real potential. Continue to build it and they will come.

[Kaonis]

My opinion? The game is dying and will die a slow and painful death so long as the present devs/EA keep doing what they are doing. When you go from having the biggest launch in MMO history; to F2P, 2 waves of layoffs, massive server merges and a loss of by best estimates about 1 million players (1.7 mill players, down to an undisclosed "higher then 500k" so assuming maybe 700k left if that). It's impossible to call the game a resounding success by this point, and pretty much clear to anyone who isn't a fan boy that this game has serious issues that are not getting addressed.

 

This game will die the way every other MMO has, with fans clawing and screaming till the end ignoring the tell tale signs of their precious game dying.

[Fornix]

I loved this game.

 

Played in beta for quite awhile, bought a 60 day game card at release and then subbed for 6 months after it expired. Throw in the free month that they gave out and my sub is valid until October.

 

This has to have been one of the worst post launch developer management debacles that I have ever seen from a major MMO. They had very little idea of what the player base was looking for and why they were playing the game in the first place.

 

D3 has been handled just as abysmally, this is not exclusive to SWTOR by any means. Developers on the whole have lost touch with their true playerbase in an effort to appeal to wider audiences and market demographics.

 

So if you're asking if I feel silly, the answer is yes, but only for not cutting my losses sooner with this dev team.

 

So what is their true playerbase in your view then? Since as for myself I'm quite satisfied with the moves BioWare has made. The only downside I see into it is that they're too cautious at times, trying to cater to both ends of the stick too much and just clinging on in the middle. This disables them from taking the full potential out of their decisions.

 

Personally I think the players you refer to as 'true playerbase' are just the people who're stuck in the past too much. Living off nostalgia. Unless they manage to get a fresh view on things they'll just be playing their games like senior citizens ripping off anything new and modern, as to how it's too fast, too easy, too flashy, too much, etc.

 

Just like as to how back in their days a automobile used to be an actual automobile, one which you were cranking up for 30 minutes before you could drive off at 20 kmph, manual steering, etc. None of those modern pieces of scrapheap which drive 200 kmph and come with features such as cupholders. Back in their days you didn't even have cups, but mugs you carved out of stone with your bare teeth. Etc, etc. You get the point.

 

It's frequently the same with certain MMO players or players from previous games of a certain developer. How back in the days leveling took 5 years of 20 hours a day to still not complete, how raid bosses took 100 players to slaughter and fights could take hours (or in some extremes days), etc.

[Wayshuba]

Freemium access models are not only popular among players, they are healthy for the MMO because they inject significant additional revenue, which results in a companies ability to increase their operations plan costs (read: investment into new content) while maintaining their profit contributions to the company.

 

 

 

Source: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/08/good-riddance-the-death-of-online-gamings-monthly-subscription-model

 

I'm one who will, politely, disagree with you. There isn't a single MMO company doing great with the freemium model, most only survive. And before Turbine is brought up in response to this again, I have been a long term shareholder in TW and Turbine is NOT doing great with F2P, they are surviving. Big difference.

 

F2P only seems like it does okay because of so many companies using the model so the overall market numbers skew the actual results. However, the industry leader still holds a sub model and SWTOR had the best launch (in terms of numbers) of any MMO with 2.4 million people knowing it had a sub fee.

 

I contend that F2P is not a successful business model, not when you dig deeper than the surface of we doubled or tripled our revenue. For example, everyone likes to point to Turbine. When you dig deeper you first ask why did Turbine get sold? Because they weren't making money to begin with and were still supplementing existence on burn from their last $43 million venture investment. So they were sold as investor's had tired of not turning a healthy margin after years of existence. So F2P came in to fix things, but Turbine's reputation as a company is also in the trash because of the rather questionable business tactics they have used in an effort to make 'the numbers'.

 

As a long term venture investor, when I hear statements like we doubled or tripled our revenue without numbers attached, here is the first thing that comes to my mind and usually turns out to be true when I dig deeper on the financials. "We were making $250k a month with expenses of $650k, now we doubled our revenue to $500k a month and only increased expenses to $750k (all those free people still cost money and resources to support). Isn't that great! Yeah, except that you are STILL burning through $250k a month in invested capital and not turning a profit so the business model still doesn't work." So, you see, doubling revenue does NOT mean you are turning a profit. I'd rather hear statements such as we doubled or tripled profits, than revenue. But, you don't hear that at all in relation to the F2P model - and for good reasons as I have noted above.

 

I believe the sub model is still preferred by most MMO gamers. The two issues, however, are that (1). the sub fee needs to be adjusted to broaden the market appeal, maybe to $5 to $7/month or (2) the delivery of quality and content needs to be increased to the market's expectations of what they are getting for their sub fee.

 

F2P is NOT going to save this title. The fundamental problem is not solved with F2P and that is that EA/BioWare doesn't know how to run an MMO, what MMO customers want (nor do they care to listen) and, quite frankly, is run by people with far too much hubris to be humbled enough to correct the course.

 

Lastly, this is a big one that everyone is missing with SWTOR. Shareholders are holding this title in their sites and their are senior management jobs on the line now. It's no secret that many want the CEO of EA replaced now, and SWTOR is a big reason behind it. So, F2P in this case is simply about recovering as much as possible to save some senior exec tail ends - nothing more, nothing less. Which means little investment in the future and extracting as much capital return as possible.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Wayshuba

[Kalfear]

I'm more worried about the genre as a whole then I am this game.

 

If this was launched five years ago, when people knew, understood, and enjoyed MMORPGs, it would have done much better. However, in this era of instant gratification, constant stimulation, money tight gamers games that launch shelled and are developed over the long haul will have very little chance of corralling the short attention spans of gamers looking for spoon fed shooter type content.

 

I'd venture to say that this game will go down in history as the last of the true MMORPGs. From there, the genre is going to turn into a FTP, quick, cheep, mediocre content barrages designed around cash shop purchases.

 

Ummm few mistakes

 

1) 5 years agois not when people knew MMORPGs. The instant gratification crowd entered with WOW 8 years ago! THATS when the maturity drop happened across the board and THATS when MMORPGs started to be created to the lowest common denominator!

 

Prior to WOW, TOR would have died even quicker because it made a number of mistakes that the pre WOW crowds would not (and did not) accept!

 

Level curve is way to easy

Lack of social activities

TERRIBLE PVP system

Insulting developer behavior and statements at release

 

TOR would NOT have faired better in the old days before WOW dumbed it all down. Games back then actually had to grab their audience and hold a majority of them in game. TOR lacks the hooks and virtual carrot for long term addiction to game (which is the main reason people walk away after a month. They already maxed and done)

 

And you guys are crazy, the holy grail of MMORPG revenue creation is a successful SUBSCRIPTION MODEL MMORPG. Companies are going to continue to release subscription MMORPGs and only go F2P if they can not hold their subscriber base!

 

You all keep saying subscription model MMORPGs are dead but over 2.4 million people bought this game prepared to pay a monthly subscription fee.

 

The game FAILED to hold their interest long term.

Thats not about the subscription model failing, thats about the design of game failing.

 

If TOR had done a handful of key design features differently, this game would still be going strong with 1.5 million + active subscribers.

 

TOR didnt live up to the press and only then did people balk at the subscription model!

 

If a company puts out a well crafted and designed product, people will pay the monthly sub happily. But only if they are enjoying themselves.

 

F2P is where you go when you cant stay afloat in the subscription model market because F2P is substancially lesser profit margins.

 

PS: To the guy saying the forums killed TOR, give it a rest! Every single game has negative posts directed at it and every single game has other games advertising on their forums (heck some even pay people to do it). As someone else said

 

If TOR was veiwed as a good game worth long term playing, people wouldnt even care whats written as they would be in game having fun!

 

And if you can honestly be swayed by the opinions of internet strangers slagging on a game, well that speak more about some "other issues" not at all related to the game quite honestly.

 

But if you REALLY want to get technical, the people giveing these forums the bad reputation are not the negative posts about game. Its the personal attacks directed at anyone that posts something negative (IE: Truthfull and correct 90% of time). Thats where these forums get such a bad rap from and why many players leave and never look back. If they could have a exchange of ideas and concerns they might feel heard. instead they are openly attacked and insulted and trolled for daring to post their dislikes and concerns.

 

And yes, TOR should have had PRIVATE server forums where the subscribers could come togather as a community. Ill never understand why those were never made. Chalk it up to more head scratching brain teasers like a MMORPG based off the hit game KotOR not releaseing with Pazzaak and Swoop racing.

 

Just one of those things that will never have a logical answer to it.

[kirorx]

It's hard to say and it will depend on who you talked to.

 

Many people think SWG ended in 2003 others like myself continued to enjoy that game untill 2011.

 

Alot of people put way too much emphasis on the sub numbers. What is difference to me if the game has 100K or 100 million, as long as i am having fun then the game is a success to me.

 

Where i see the problems with SWTOR is in its design,

 

The loading screens and time sink that is travel had been an issue since day 1, this design imprisons us to the fleets and though they created this expansive universe, its becomes too much work for too little reward.

 

I had a friend come over the other day and he plays alot of mmos but for one reason or another has not played SWTOR yet, but really wanted to. "wow loading again?" was pretty much his opinion and after about 20 mins he decided he would probally not be playing this game.

 

Will the game be shut down, no. Will it lose subs, yes. If EA attempts to compete with WoW then the sub base will stay low.

 

If they dont find a way to make travel easier and include simple features like chat bubbles then this game will be based soley on the rinse and repeat content and even 10 warzones becomes the same old stuff when you have to play day in and day out just get competitive gear, then holding subs will be hard.

Edited August 25, 2012 by kirorx

[Blackardin]

Ummm few mistakes

 

 

 

Not likely. All the arguments you are using are not in regard to MMORPGs, but face paced shooters (MMOs). All of the arguments you are using are why EQ fell to Wow. "Challange", and the "carrot on the stick" are the greatest of all misnomers, and what has morphed to the "instant gratification" crowd. I was not speaking of ease or difficulty of content, but the desire for constant content, bells an whistles, and the inability to work with other players and create their own fun in the provided environment.

 

In that aspect, the keyword is accomplishment, not "challenge", and where wow finally failed. Challenge is only a precursor to accomplishment. Banging one's head off the wall for the sake of doing so, in and of itself, will not maintain a large player base....accomplishment (or what some call "too easy") will.

 

Your entire thought process would have to shift on this matter. Its not what they can constantly feed you (that again is the face paced shooter mentality), but the gist of a MMORPG, which is the community one builds around themselves. Building of guilds, building friend's lists, working with and meeting other player and enjoying the game as a group was the basis for MMORPGs, not the chasing of the next shiny.

[Blackardin]

But if you REALLY want to get technical, the people giveing these forums the bad reputation are not the negative posts about game. Its the personal attacks directed at anyone that posts something negative (IE: Truthfull and correct 90% of time). Thats where these forums get such a bad rap from and why many players leave and never look back. If they could have a exchange of ideas and concerns they might feel heard. instead they are openly attacked and insulted and trolled for daring to post their dislikes and concerns.

 

This is also not true, but your interpretation of the truth. If one were to look back at just the titles of the threads the argument would be settled. Most of what you are calling "attacks" against the disparages are more a counter attack at some of the conjecture, hyperbole, mind projection fallacies being promulgated as truth on these boards. Honestly, the negativity on this board more resembles a 6th grade school yard then it does a game forum.

[Etheric]

Not likely. All the arguments you are using are not in regard to MMORPGs, but face paced shooters (MMOs). All of the arguments you are using are why EQ fell to Wow. "Challange", and the "carrot on the stick" are the greatest of all misnomers, and what has morphed to the "instant gratification" crowd. I was not speaking of ease or difficulty of content, but the desire for constant content, bells an whistles, and the inability to work with other players and create their own fun in the provided environment.

 

In that aspect, the keyword is accomplishment, not "challenge", and where wow finally failed. Challenge is only a precursor to accomplishment. Banging one's head off the wall for the sake of doing so, in and of itself, will not maintain a large player base....accomplishment (or what some call "too easy") will.

 

Your entire thought process would have to shift on this matter. Its not what they can constantly feed you (that again is the face paced shooter mentality), but the gist of a MMORPG, which is the community one builds around themselves. Building of guilds, building friend's lists, working with and meeting other player and enjoying the game as a group was the basis for MMORPGs, not the chasing of the next shiny.

 

I can understand where you're coming from with" Accomplishment", but don't you think- i do- that in order to achieve that "sense of accomplishment" one needs to be challenged ? I can't/won't speak for the person you quoted, but having read both theirs and your posts i get a feeling their on the same page with your last paragraph and i'm unsure as to why they would need to "shift their entire thought process"

[jarjarloves]

That's not what I would consider an official expansion. That is unless it's the biggest planet the designers ever came out with. Details still sparse on that, something larger and more involved than a single new planet is what I had in mind.

 

it is. They have stated many times it will be the largest planet they have done and have a ton of content on it.

[jarjarloves]

Lotro was 3 years old when it went F2P. It had already had an expansion as well.

 

I was reffering to DDO.

[aurellian]

I think this game is going to experience a nice bounce-back. I think there will be more players playing once the free-to-play option goes live. One thing this game has going for it is the fact that its a Star Wars game. Say what you want, but that is an extremely popular IP. The attitude at Bioware has changed and we've already started to see that change reflected in the game. I do believe they can pump out enough content to keep people happy, but I don't think we're going to see anymore big patches. I think every six weeks we're going to get something like a new warzone, a new operations, a new flashpoint, a new set quest line, that type of thing. Those single point content updates are much easier to produce than 5 or 6 of them all at once. I think the game will end up being profitable and if I had to put a number on it, I'd say in a year SWTOR will be averaging over a million active players.

[uniz]

Not likely. All the arguments you are using are not in regard to MMORPGs, but face paced shooters (MMOs). All of the arguments you are using are why EQ fell to Wow. "Challange", and the "carrot on the stick" are the greatest of all misnomers, and what has morphed to the "instant gratification" crowd. I was not speaking of ease or difficulty of content, but the desire for constant content, bells an whistles, and the inability to work with other players and create their own fun in the provided environment.

 

In that aspect, the keyword is accomplishment, not "challenge", and where wow finally failed. Challenge is only a precursor to accomplishment. Banging one's head off the wall for the sake of doing so, in and of itself, will not maintain a large player base....accomplishment (or what some call "too easy") will.

 

Your entire thought process would have to shift on this matter. Its not what they can constantly feed you (that again is the face paced shooter mentality), but the gist of a MMORPG, which is the community one builds around themselves. Building of guilds, building friend's lists, working with and meeting other player and enjoying the game as a group was the basis for MMORPGs, not the chasing of the next shiny.

 

um eq1 didn't fell to wow. it fell to eq2 which came out the exact same time. far too many ex eq1 and eq2 people cant stand wow with its cartoonish graphics and the ability to get two top end raid toons in bis from level 1 in 5 months. wow and many of its players are a joke to many of us that played the eqs.

 

you have made some interesting points about challenging content. but the some words not used were entitlement and achievement. wow created a standard in mmos of that of entitlement too. i pay so i must have. to solve this you give with little or no challenge which doesnt allow any sense of true achievement but rather accomplishment like you said and defined. there is no longer any challenge only a grind perhaps but even that isn't too lengthy. you will see entitlement raise its head on many of the forums in this and other mmos.

 

to get back with the threads topic star wars will be around for some time. there are enough people that are fans of the lore and the saga it has created over the years to keep it going. the mmo industry is changing as vast amounts of people have been introduced to them and now have varying tastes, needs and desires of features they do or do not want. many of these clash with each other and are deal breakers. at the rate player devour content and the financial limits imposed by corporate bean counters you will see fewer and fewer generic mmos and more specialized ones. the days of having everything to everyone is over.

[Kalfear]

Others have corrected you Black so Ill just say

 

I been playing (and thriving) in MMORPGs since 1991.

 

My attitude has always been the same and always will be the same and Im not changing the FACTS to suit your opinion.

 

The entitlement, instant gratification, lack of challenge, and any number of other negative terms that apply became a issue in this Genre with WOW. PERIOD. Thats when the genre changed for what we see today. And thats exactly why no MMORPG since WOW can hold on to subscribers.

 

And EQ didnt fall to WOW, EQ had a long run as top dog and its time had simply come to be pushed aside by the newer game. If WOW hadnt done it, many number of MMORPGs would have as the tech and computer standards had risen dramatically and made EQ out of date!

 

EQ had its run and is the standard for all other MMORPGs (including WOW) to build off of. WOW is simply EQ dumbed down to its lowest level.

 

My attitude is not what makes these games fail to hold subscribers.

 

When a developer makes a solid game with a worthy challenge (not seen since BEFORE WOW (thats before, not at) in the genre) that engages players while also making them EARN (time and knowledge) their rewards, that game will most likely be a hit game or at least successful.

 

Long as the genre continue to follow the WOW DESIGN of easier, faster, sloppier MMORPG design, they will continue to fail to engage the player base long term and continue to go F2P in a short period of time.

 

WOW brought the so called FPS mentality to the genre mainstream.

Now its time to ignore WOW and go back to the root where substance and quality were more important then stroke enducing colors and instant gratification.

 

If you think the golden age of MMORPG developement was 5 years ago, your part of the over all problem, not the solution.

[Sathid]

Others have corrected you Black so Ill just say

 

I been playing (and thriving) in MMORPGs since 1991.

 

My attitude has always been the same and always will be the same and Im not changing the FACTS to suit your opinion.

 

The entitlement, instant gratification, lack of challenge, and any number of other negative terms that apply became a issue in this Genre with WOW. PERIOD. Thats when the genre changed for what we see today. And thats exactly why no MMORPG since WOW can hold on to subscribers.

 

And EQ didnt fall to WOW, EQ had a long run as top dog and its time had simply come to be pushed aside by the newer game. If WOW hadnt done it, many number of MMORPGs would have as the tech and computer standards had risen dramatically and made EQ out of date!

 

EQ had its run and is the standard for all other MMORPGs (including WOW) to build off of. WOW is simply EQ dumbed down to its lowest level.

 

My attitude is not what makes these games fail to hold subscribers.

 

When a developer makes a solid game with a worthy challenge (not seen since BEFORE WOW (thats before, not at) in the genre) that engages players while also making them EARN (time and knowledge) their rewards, that game will most likely be a hit game or at least successful.

 

Long as the genre continue to follow the WOW DESIGN of easier, faster, sloppier MMORPG design, they will continue to fail to engage the player base long term and continue to go F2P in a short period of time.

 

WOW brought the so called FPS mentality to the genre mainstream.

Now its time to ignore WOW and go back to the root where substance and quality were more important then stroke enducing colors and instant gratification.

 

If you think the golden age of MMORPG developement was 5 years ago, your part of the over all problem, not the solution.

 

EQ2 is alive and well,i have been a sub for almost seven years now,matter of fact they are releasing an expansion soon,,,,as to your other comments,yup the WoW gen really have hurt MMO gaming,and you wanna know whats funny? this last expansion EQ2 went back to it's root's with content out of the wazoo and many stuff so hard it took almost a year for some to complete it,i believe there was 14 raid areas with two lvl's and then there was Drunder which had single group and two group areas.

 

Edit:There is one sliver of good WoW did,it introduced a younger and broader market to MMO's,but even veteran MMO players want the tough stuff for accomplishment that set's them apart from those who seem to i dunno lack in many ways,,i have joined guilds just to get them up to higher raid standard in EQ2 even brought a few friends with me and no matter how hard we tried those people just couldnt get past certain areas,it wasnt gear we helped them farm,i guess like the saying goes you can lead a horse to water,anyhow im off to play some SWTOR i think this game has legs,it just needs alittle time.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Sathid

[aurellian]

I never played EQ. My 1st MMO was SWG. But I too believe that when you make content easy to clear, you put yourself in a situation where you simply cannot keep people interested. There is a definite difference between this current generation and generations of the past. People today do want things easier and faster, and if they can't get them, they move on to the thing that the CAN get easier and faster. I think if you want to sustain an MMO nowadays, you have to make some really incredible rewards and make them really difficult to get. That way, when those few players actually get those rewards/items or whatever, and they start putting them into play in the game world, other players will see them and want to emulate them. That way you get lots of people trying the content, but not everyone finishing the content and wanting the next big thing. I remember as a CM in SWG the 1st time I ran into someone who had poison made from the venom of that spider in the cave. She wiped me out in about 15 seconds and no matter how many times I ran into her, I could not kill her. That motivated me to find that spider, and do whatever I had to do to get that venom so I could make my own super poison.

[Gwena]

I have an opinion, and am educated . . . just not in MMO economics and population theories. But IMHO it could go either way.

 

I think the game will have a nice comeback if they make with the bug fixes, add in those little features players have been wanting for ages, have a cash shop with appealing high quality vanity items, and start to put out content at a faster pace than they have been so far (or, at the least, be more communicative about what is coming and when).

 

On the other hand, I guess that if they add content and fix bugs at the pace of a narcoleptic snail, continue to ignore player's request for all those little things (that, added up, can really make a difference), and have a cash shop full of items similar in style/quality to existing armors, then the game will experience a brief upswing in players before starting to lose them again.

 

Personally, I am hoping for the former, and will gladly be a paid subscriber after F2P hits if that is the case.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Gwena

[Kalfear]

EQ2 is alive and well,i have been a sub for almost seven years now,matter of fact they are releasing an expansion soon,,,,as to your other comments,yup the WoW gen really have hurt MMO gaming,and you wanna know whats funny? this last expansion EQ2 went back to it's root's with content out of the wazoo and many stuff so hard it took almost a year for some to complete it,i believe there was 14 raid areas with two lvl's and then there was Drunder which had single group and two group areas.

 

Edit:There is one sliver of good WoW did,it introduced a younger and broader market to MMO's,but even veteran MMO players want the tough stuff for accomplishment that set's them apart from those who seem to i dunno lack in many ways,,i have joined guilds just to get them up to higher raid standard in EQ2 even brought a few friends with me and no matter how hard we tried those people just couldnt get past certain areas,it wasnt gear we helped them farm,i guess like the saying goes you can lead a horse to water,anyhow im off to play some SWTOR i think this game has legs,it just needs alittle time.

 

yeah Sath, I played EQ2 as well when i released and while I didnt hate game and in fact liked a number of concepts greatly.

 

Good to hear they going back to older day design concepts because trying to recreate the WOW fad will not work for anyone.

 

Someone said the newer players dont want the grind (what they call it anyways), they want instant access or they leave. Problem is when they given instant access and immediate gratification they also leave. Its a catch 22 senario so Developers NEED to understand they have to STOP developing for the WOW generation because no matter which way they go, those players will leave.

 

So these devs need to go back and develop for MMORPG gamers specifically. Get that base to stay with you and hope you can grab a few of the more transient WOW gen gamers, for more then a couple months.

 

But that comes down to product.

And thats where TOR came up short

 

I followed this games since before it was announced and was just rumor.

 

We asked for Pazzaak and Swoop racing....we got nothing

We asked for DAoC style RVR....we got WOW gen warzones

We asked for customizable housing/ships....we got nothing

We asked for early access....we got told to stop bothing BW/EA with unimportant requests

The list goes on and on of reasonable requests that were waved off and ignored by BW/EA

 

And this is the result of it

 

Now as I said before, I dont think this has to be TORs final dance. But EA (BW dead and buried) needs to stop ignoring the long term fan base and stop giving in to the WOW gen players.

 

That communication has to be opened in earnest now if this game is to survive and advance because EA can NOT afford more cancellations when they are completely avoidable!

 

Personally I think a solid EXPANSION (not Makeb planet but a full fledge expansion) that returned to older day concepts and ideals. That brought in the pazzaak and swoop racing, that introiduced Wookie home world and anouther planet. That added new high level zones to starter planets giving a reason for players to go back there. That added EQ2 style housing on planet and customizable space ships. That type of expansion designed to challenge players that play 20-30 hours a week for the next 7 months time would really turn things around here and send a message that the days of ignoring the fan base are over.

 

TOR will never recover its industry reputation because once thats lost, its lost. You only get one kick at the can. But TOR can be a solid and growing game IF EA starts to correct the REAL ISSUES and stops with the spin and excuses they been falling on lately.

 

I still say if TOR had made the legacy level curve the character level curve so people didnt max out in a week, a month, 2 months, this game would still have alot more subscribers and would have bought themselves much more time to expand their end game content with out the immediate rush and demand by those there overnight!

[LordNyxus]

Star Wars: The Old Republic will never be as "hot" as it was at launch. As it is settling into its place among the MMO universe, it will maintain a standing similar to games like Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Everquest 2, and Star Wars Galaxies. It will maintain its loyal following which will carry the game until BioWare turns the last server off.

 

There will be consistent droves of accounts created, people playing for a few weeks and moving onto something else. Many will return to see what has changed (if anything) and reminisce about times they had in the early days of SWTOR. Star Wars: The Old Republic is here to stay (for the next 5 years or so), though the 200 server monster will consolidate into less than 10 within the next 2 years (less than 20 US servers by 2014).

 

I believe that SWTOR will always stand out as the game who's ambition could not deliver more than an entertaining story. Too many presumptions were made by the BioWare/Electronic Arts development teams, and inexperience in the MMO arena contributed to another MMO "that could have been..."

 

Personally, Luscas Arts should be a bit perturbed about the state of the Star Wars IP. This is the Second Star Wars MMO (more MMOs than any other IP -- except new versions of old ones like EverQuest and Guild Wars) that started with a great premise, only to fail due to poor development decisions. However, the Star Wars IP would be difficult for any developer to do properly.

 

The Star Wars universe is extremely vast and has been created through years of contributions by other game developers, Lucas Arts, and authors. By choosing to focus on PvE content and the "4th pillar," Star Wars: The Old Republic has ignored much of the excitement that drew even hard-core Star Wars fans to the game. Half of the Star Wars films took place in space, with major space conflicts and battles that kids today still mimic on the playground. BioWare chose to ignore this giant battleground and replace it with a linear "theme-park" rail shooter. The biggest disappointment was that the space shooter had absolutely no connection to the main game...other than a distraction from the linear character story progression.

 

BioWare has shown that their intention, from the inception of SWTOR, has been about the story. Their primary focus was to encourage players to experience the stories of all the "classes." However, such sole focus on PvE content and the "4th pillar" seemed to alienate players who were most interested in role-playing and PvP. There is very little role-play mechanics available to those who wish to role-play (you can't even sit in a cantina chair, and you must stare at a chat box sifting for a response, while trying to ignore insults about role-playing by those who do not participate. PvP was designed poorly. The only open-world PvP was Ilum, which was a tremendous failur. Besides a PvP area on a planet is NOT the definition of open-world PvP. It was just a larger warzone that you did not need to wait in queue to enter. Endgame content was a second thought whose importance was trivial compared to that "4th pillar." It appears that BioWare assumed that players would simply re-roll characters.

 

Star Wars: The Old Republic does PvE content very well, and even PvP can be engaging. Die-hard Star Wars fans will remain as long as the game is still online. Many people have still not given up hope that SWTOR will become all that they dreamed it would be, and though they might not be extremely active players, they will maintain their connection with the game...waiting to see. Free-to-play will breath a bit of life back into SWTOR as new players experience the SWTOR stories. However, it is inevitable that upon finishing a story or three, these players will fade off into the miasma of the MMO universe in search of something more entertaining.

 

As a final note, I must congratulate BioWare for doing a very good job, considering this was their very first jump into the MMO market. I believe (perhaps a bit pessimistically) that their next venture in MMO-dom will be a better experience...so long as they learn from their first experience.

[Hessen]

I am willing to bet that there will be no companion or class story continuation. Ever, New content may well be some more quest hubs on existing or new planets, but it will not be of the same quality as the 1-50 leveling.

 

Even if F2P saves the game from going under, it won't generate enough revenue to pay for the voice acting.

 

Consider the current end of your class story like the ending of the Sopranos. Open to interpretation and you'll never find out what really happens next.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Hessen

[vandana_]

Personally, Luscas Arts should be a bit perturbed about the state of the Star Wars IP. This is the Second Star Wars MMO (more MMOs than any other IP -- except new versions of old ones like EverQuest and Guild Wars) that started with a great premise, only to fail due to poor development decisions. However, the Star Wars IP would be difficult for any developer to do properly.

 

The Star Wars universe is extremely vast and has been created through years of contributions by other game developers, Lucas Arts, and authors. By choosing to focus on PvE content and the "4th pillar," Star Wars: The Old Republic has ignored much of the excitement that drew even hard-core Star Wars fans to the game. Half of the Star Wars films took place in space, with major space conflicts and battles that kids today still mimic on the playground. BioWare chose to ignore this giant battleground and replace it with a linear "theme-park" rail shooter. The biggest disappointment was that the space shooter had absolutely no connection to the main game...other than a distraction from the linear character story progression.

 

I enjoyed your post and agree with almost everything except that Star Wars IP would be a problem for any developer. All it needed was a company with technical knowledge and budget. While Bioware had the latter it had absolutely none of the first. And if you add to that the AMAZING streak of bad management and PR decisions you have a recipe for a catastrophe.

Edited August 25, 2012 by vandana_

[jarjarloves]

yeah Sath, I played EQ2 as well when i released and while I didnt hate game and in fact liked a number of concepts greatly.

 

Good to hear they going back to older day design concepts because trying to recreate the WOW fad will not work for anyone.

 

Someone said the newer players dont want the grind (what they call it anyways), they want instant access or they leave. Problem is when they given instant access and immediate gratification they also leave. Its a catch 22 senario so Developers NEED to understand they have to STOP developing for the WOW generation because no matter which way they go, those players will leave.

 

So these devs need to go back and develop for MMORPG gamers specifically. Get that base to stay with you and hope you can grab a few of the more transient WOW gen gamers, for more then a couple months.

 

But that comes down to product.

And thats where TOR came up short

 

I followed this games since before it was announced and was just rumor.

 

We asked for Pazzaak and Swoop racing....we got nothing

We asked for DAoC style RVR....we got WOW gen warzones

We asked for customizable housing/ships....we got nothing

We asked for early access....we got told to stop bothing BW/EA with unimportant requests

The list goes on and on of reasonable requests that were waved off and ignored by BW/EA

 

And this is the result of it

 

Now as I said before, I dont think this has to be TORs final dance. But EA (BW dead and buried) needs to stop ignoring the long term fan base and stop giving in to the WOW gen players.

 

That communication has to be opened in earnest now if this game is to survive and advance because EA can NOT afford more cancellations when they are completely avoidable!

 

Personally I think a solid EXPANSION (not Makeb planet but a full fledge expansion) that returned to older day concepts and ideals. That brought in the pazzaak and swoop racing, that introiduced Wookie home world and anouther planet. That added new high level zones to starter planets giving a reason for players to go back there. That added EQ2 style housing on planet and customizable space ships. That type of expansion designed to challenge players that play 20-30 hours a week for the next 7 months time would really turn things around here and send a message that the days of ignoring the fan base are over.

 

TOR will never recover its industry reputation because once thats lost, its lost. You only get one kick at the can. But TOR can be a solid and growing game IF EA starts to correct the REAL ISSUES and stops with the spin and excuses they been falling on lately.

 

I still say if TOR had made the legacy level curve the character level curve so people didnt max out in a week, a month, 2 months, this game would still have alot more subscribers and would have bought themselves much more time to expand their end game content with out the immediate rush and demand by those there overnight!

They told us Pazzac, sabaac and swoop racing are being worked on but are a low priorty. I'm sure they will add it to the cash shop when it goes F2P eventually

 

DaoC RVR is something that will never happen again in a MMO. Sorry and no GW2 is NOT DaoC style RVR

 

They also told us at the guild summit they are working on custimizable stuff for your ship

 

Ummm they gave us early access. Don't know what you are talking about.

[jarjarloves]

Star Wars: The Old Republic will never be as "hot" as it was at launch. As it is settling into its place among the MMO universe, it will maintain a standing similar to games like Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Everquest 2, and Star Wars Galaxies. It will maintain its loyal following which will carry the game until BioWare turns the last server off.

 

There will be consistent droves of accounts created, people playing for a few weeks and moving onto something else. Many will return to see what has changed (if anything) and reminisce about times they had in the early days of SWTOR. Star Wars: The Old Republic is here to stay (for the next 5 years or so), though the 200 server monster will consolidate into less than 10 within the next 2 years (less than 20 US servers by 2014).

 

I believe that SWTOR will always stand out as the game who's ambition could not deliver more than an entertaining story. Too many presumptions were made by the BioWare/Electronic Arts development teams, and inexperience in the MMO arena contributed to another MMO "that could have been..."

 

Personally, Luscas Arts should be a bit perturbed about the state of the Star Wars IP. This is the Second Star Wars MMO (more MMOs than any other IP -- except new versions of old ones like EverQuest and Guild Wars) that started with a great premise, only to fail due to poor development decisions. However, the Star Wars IP would be difficult for any developer to do properly.

 

The Star Wars universe is extremely vast and has been created through years of contributions by other game developers, Lucas Arts, and authors. By choosing to focus on PvE content and the "4th pillar," Star Wars: The Old Republic has ignored much of the excitement that drew even hard-core Star Wars fans to the game. Half of the Star Wars films took place in space, with major space conflicts and battles that kids today still mimic on the playground. BioWare chose to ignore this giant battleground and replace it with a linear "theme-park" rail shooter. The biggest disappointment was that the space shooter had absolutely no connection to the main game...other than a distraction from the linear character story progression.

 

BioWare has shown that their intention, from the inception of SWTOR, has been about the story. Their primary focus was to encourage players to experience the stories of all the "classes." However, such sole focus on PvE content and the "4th pillar" seemed to alienate players who were most interested in role-playing and PvP. There is very little role-play mechanics available to those who wish to role-play (you can't even sit in a cantina chair, and you must stare at a chat box sifting for a response, while trying to ignore insults about role-playing by those who do not participate. PvP was designed poorly. The only open-world PvP was Ilum, which was a tremendous failur. Besides a PvP area on a planet is NOT the definition of open-world PvP. It was just a larger warzone that you did not need to wait in queue to enter. Endgame content was a second thought whose importance was trivial compared to that "4th pillar." It appears that BioWare assumed that players would simply re-roll characters.

 

Star Wars: The Old Republic does PvE content very well, and even PvP can be engaging. Die-hard Star Wars fans will remain as long as the game is still online. Many people have still not given up hope that SWTOR will become all that they dreamed it would be, and though they might not be extremely active players, they will maintain their connection with the game...waiting to see. Free-to-play will breath a bit of life back into SWTOR as new players experience the SWTOR stories. However, it is inevitable that upon finishing a story or three, these players will fade off into the miasma of the MMO universe in search of something more entertaining.

 

As a final note, I must congratulate BioWare for doing a very good job, considering this was their very first jump into the MMO market. I believe (perhaps a bit pessimistically) that their next venture in MMO-dom will be a better experience...so long as they learn from their first experience.

 

if they ever add Jump To Light speed style space combat and exploration. Then yeah I could easily see this being bigger then it was at launch.

 

oh also DDO and LotrO are doing better now then they did at launch. They actually had to add servers because they became so succesful.

Edited August 25, 2012 by jarjarloves

[Soluss]

The issue with going F2P to make more money is sort of ridiculous when they have at least 600k subs paying, that's roughly $8,970,000 monthly. To compare another niche game, Eve online is a niche game with roughly 500k monthly subscribers (many of them alts, as I run 2 accounts) and add to that the plex system where you can buy plex with in game ISK to fund your play. The point here is that CCP has no where near the WOW numbers but they make a terrific game with 2-3 major updates a year. The game is pretty, the ships are cool, and they listen to the community heavily.

 

My question is whats wrong financially with approximately (low end) 5 million per month in revenue? Why is it they feel the need to have a huge subscriber base rather than keeping what they currently have and making a successful MMO based off current subscriber numbers? Would make more sense to me to make a quality game while keeping the niche players who love it and have supported it since launch. Cater to the supporters of the game and keep making it for them, and if new players come along great!

 

The difference is that this game cost about 200m to make. BW had stated they need ~500k subs to basically break even. A game like eve probably didnt cost more then 10 mil to make. It has long since earned its profits while ToR is in the red.

[jarjarloves]

The difference is that this game cost about 200m to make. BW had stated they need ~500k subs to basically break even. A game like eve probably didnt cost more then 10 mil to make. It has long since earned its profits while ToR is in the red.

 

it was 500k to be profitable but even though they had more then that EA decided it wasn't enough

 

Also it was less then $200 million. The 200 million comes from a LA Times article that assumes that Bioware owns Blur Studios and several other studios.

 

also Tor is not in the red according to the Earning calls they have said many times that is still profitable.

Edited August 25, 2012 by jarjarloves