The swordplay of the movies

[caesaraugust]

As a current practitioner of Kendo, as well as a blackbelt in Kenjutsu, and with five years of fencing under my belt, I wanted to voice my personal opinion on the lightsaber battles in the movies.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi v.s. Darth Vader - the first duel of the Star Wars saga was between an elderly man and a man in a cumbersome suit. It was an adaptation of fencing, and while not visually appealing, it was a classic duel.

 

Luke Skywalker v.s. Darth Vader - on Bespin, Skywalker and Vader fought in the iconic duel that culminated with Vader's admitting to being Luke's father. This fight moved away from classical fencing- while retaining many elements- and closer into Kendo and Aikido style fighting. Choreographics were spectacular, in that it looked like a real duel.

 

Luke Skywalker v.s. Darth Vader II - in the shadow of Emperor Palpatine, Skywalker and Vader had their final duel. It was dramatic, and nearly abandoned all fencing qualities, favoring a Kendo-Kenjutsu hybrid. This duel, I felt, was a little more choreographed than the one on Bespin- meaning that I could tell it was being acted, and it looked less like a real fight.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi, Qui-Gon Jinn v.s. Darth Maul - while I have no respect for Maul as anything more than a mindless animal, this duel was very quality. While not fencing, it employed a lot of Kendo. The fight looks like a real struggle, rather than a series of dance moves.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi v.s. Count Dooku - overly choreographed, it looks more like dancing.

 

Anakin v.s. Count Dooku - again, far too choreographed. Favoring flash and pizazz over realism.

 

Obi-Wan, Anakin v.s. Count Dooku - far too choreographed. It's so phony it gets sad.

 

Mace Windu v.s. Darth Sidious - this was excusable, in Ian McDiarmid being elderly and not a swordsman. Not exactly awesome, yet unrealistic as well.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi v.s. Anakin Skywalker - the most overly choreographed, played out thing. It looked like Kenobi and Skywalker were dancing with one another, and not in a fight for their lives. Too much acrobatics.

 

Just offering my opinion, based upon over a decade of experience with swords and martial artistry. Opinions?

[Fyurii]

Obi-Wan Kenobi v.s. Anakin Skywalker - the most overly choreographed, played out thing. It looked like Kenobi and Skywalker were dancing with one another, and not in a fight for their lives. Too much acrobatics.

 

Everytime I think of this fight, all I hear in my head is "twirly-twirly-twirly, twirly-twirly-twirly".

 

Honestly though, the second Luke & Vader fight is a lot different than in ESB like you say, but I feel that it fits the context.

Luke's not fighting Vader, he's trying to rescue his father, and doesn't really "fight" him until Vader's made him angry with his taunting.

 

Regarding the Windu/Sidious fight, I still feel that the end of that fight should have lead into Anakin fighting Windu instead of just cutting off Windu's hand.

Anakin's desperation to save the man he believed could help him prevent Padme's death, turning to anger against the person who was going to effectively end the war. Missed opportunity that could have done more for displaying how far Anakin had fallen, instead of just "oh noez, I is dark side now, boo hoo!".

[GymQuirk]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Flynning

 

It's all about entertaining the audience.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Everytime I think of this fight, all I hear in my head is "twirly-twirly-twirly, twirly-twirly-twirly".

 

Honestly though, the second Luke & Vader fight is a lot different than in ESB like you say, but I feel that it fits the context.

Luke's not fighting Vader, he's trying to rescue his father, and doesn't really "fight" him until Vader's made him angry with his taunting.

 

Regarding the Windu/Sidious fight, I still feel that the end of that fight should have lead into Anakin fighting Windu instead of just cutting off Windu's hand.

Anakin's desperation to save the man he believed could help him prevent Padme's death, turning to anger against the person who was going to effectively end the war. Missed opportunity that could have done more for displaying how far Anakin had fallen, instead of just "oh noez, I is dark side now, boo hoo!".

 

They did display how far Anakin falls throughout each of the movies if you pay attention. Starts off slow at first then gets bigger and bigger until finally that scene.

[Fyurii]

They did display how far Anakin falls throughout each of the movies if you pay attention. Starts off slow at first then gets bigger and bigger until finally that scene.

 

They show a whiney angry teen that slaughters an entire village of Sand People, of which nothing is done, and doesn't have the common sense or sense of responsibility to not listen to Palpatine's order to kill Dooku, (Palpatine was for all intents and purposes a hostage and remains so until they're off the ship and he's back in safe hands, and hostages are never allowed to dictate what happens to the hostage taker), and "friendship" doesn't come into that either. Even then he's still allowed to continue on his merry way with no questions asked about what happened to Dooku. Even Qui-Gon had to give a full and detailed report of his mission to the Jedi Council before he told them about Anakin.

 

What passes for Anakin's turn to the Dark Side in the movies is nothing more than a systematic series of failures on behalf of Obi-Wan and the entire Jedi Council.

Not forgetting the ridiculous way he goes from "What have I done" after disarming Windu and witnessing his murder, to "My Master has ordered me to kill all Jedi" in virtually the blink of an eye. It really goes beyond suspension of disbelief.

 

Turning to the Dark Side isn't just a case of "Grrr, oh-no, whine, yes my Master". At least, it wasn't until Lucas squeezed it into what boils down to a tiny fraction of everything else that was going on in the prequels.

Luke skirting the fringes of the Dark Side in ESB an RoTJ was far better done, especially when it took a concious decision to not kill Vader and become Palpatine's next apprentice.

[SweetOldBob]

OP -- not on topic, but I'm curious: how would you rate the fights in "The Duellists"?? They look pretty darned real to me, but I don't know anything about it.

[Rayla_Felana]

This is not meant to be me and you having a duel, it's meant to be Force Users that move at an extremely fast pace whilst using ancient Forms of combat designed for their force abilities and shaped from every style of swordplay in the universe, perfectly balanced to make lightsaber combat the apex of duelling in the galaxy.

[Fyurii]

OP -- not on topic, but I'm curious: how would you rate the fights in "The Duellists"?? They look pretty darned real to me, but I don't know anything about it.

 

They stand too far apart, and swing for each other's weapons.

"Real", they need to be closer and swinging for the body.

[ineedahelmet]

Where and how do you see Aikido in the ESB Bespin Duel? I just watched it again and don't see it.

[Eillack]

Can't agree with the OP.

 

The main fact you are missing is....Star Wars is not supposed to be close to realistic. We have FORCE USERS having these duels with Lightsabers which are far from anything close from real swords. Eveything in our world means nothing in the Star Wars universe; over "there" things work completely different.

 

And imo I saw no "dancing" I saw years of training being used. Lightsaber duels were a deadly form of art in a way.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Eillack

[Aurbere]

I completely disagree with the OP. Lightsabers are deadly weapons that require presicion to use. What looks like dancing is actually years of training in play.

[RendValor]

Funny, having recently watched the movies, the duel that looks the least realistic is the Darth Maul vs Kenobi and QGJ

[caesaraugust]

OP -- not on topic, but I'm curious: how would you rate the fights in "The Duellists"?? They look pretty darned real to me, but I don't know anything about it.

 

I've yet to see that film, but since you've brought it up, I am making efforts to rate it

[caesaraugust]

I completely disagree with the OP. Lightsabers are deadly weapons that require presicion to use. What looks like dancing is actually years of training in play.

 

While I respect the disagreements, and totally understand your point of view, they're swords nonetheless. I'm just giving my opinion based on years of using swords professionally. The Mustafar duel goes into the realm of pure nonsense, Force-user or no, there are established laws in swordplay. I've studied the Seven Forms of lightsaber combat extensively (I myself fight with Makashi), and they're all built and based upon real forms of swordsmanship.

 

Stunt coordinator Nick Gillard did an entire 'webisode' where he talked about everything lightsaber combat was based upon in the Prequels, all of which was eastern Asian stylization. Bob Andersen, who coordinated the combat for the Original Trilogy, described his extensive efforts to base the combat off of fencing variations- although during Luke's duel with Vader on Bespin I spotted moves specific to Akihito.

 

I do believe much of Star Wars (while it is fantasy as a whole) is grounded in reality. Especially the sword-to-sword combat. It's damn near impossible just to make up a sword-fight, all of it would have to come from true sources. As for the Mustafar duel, I still fight people I've fought a thousand times, and none of us are so practiced in the art as to look as flashy or fluid as Anakin and Obi-Wan.

 

Again, just my observations based on my background.

[Hulegu_Fett]

Where and how do you see Aikido in the ESB Bespin Duel? I just watched it again and don't see it.

 

I'd also like to know where the OP saw Aikido in ESB.

[caesaraugust]

I'd also like to know where the OP saw Aikido in ESB.

 

True. I just rewatched it for this purpose. The moves I noticed that were inherently Aikido were several times when both Luke and Vader spin. Using spins to add power to attacks is not fencing whatsoever, which relies on balance and precision. Though, as I watched, I wondered if Aikido was really in mind when it was being coordinated, because they were rather sloppy spins- and they were entirely pointless because powerful strikes are not needed to cause damage with a lightsaber. Perhaps I overplayed my hand in thinking Aikido was incorporated.

 

You seem as if you know a thing or two about the art, Hulegu_Fett. What was your take on it?

[Karkais]

Luke Skywalker v.s. Darth Vader - on Bespin, Skywalker and Vader fought in the iconic duel that culminated with Vader's admitting to being Luke's father. This fight moved away from classical fencing- while retaining many elements- and closer into Kendo and Aikido style fighting. Choreographics were spectacular, in that it looked like a real duel.

 

I guess the reason is that Bob Anderson, the fencing coach, tried to make David Prowse (the huge bodybuilder in Vaders armor) wield the lightsaber in the first movie, but in Bespin and aftewards he donned Vaders costume on himself. Bob Anderson passed away not too long ago, there was even a thread on these forums.

 

I also second you in that Qui-Gon Jinn + Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Maul is the best, most flashy lightsaber duel in the movies. I guess you can always tell the difference when there is a pro at the job, as opposed to merely actors.

[Nightthunder]

As a current practitioner of Kendo, as well as a blackbelt in Kenjutsu, and with five years of fencing under my belt, I wanted to voice my personal opinion on the lightsaber battles in the movies.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi v.s. Darth Vader - the first duel of the Star Wars saga was between an elderly man and a man in a cumbersome suit. It was an adaptation of fencing, and while not visually appealing, it was a classic duel.

 

Luke Skywalker v.s. Darth Vader - on Bespin, Skywalker and Vader fought in the iconic duel that culminated with Vader's admitting to being Luke's father. This fight moved away from classical fencing- while retaining many elements- and closer into Kendo and Aikido style fighting. Choreographics were spectacular, in that it looked like a real duel.

 

Luke Skywalker v.s. Darth Vader II - in the shadow of Emperor Palpatine, Skywalker and Vader had their final duel. It was dramatic, and nearly abandoned all fencing qualities, favoring a Kendo-Kenjutsu hybrid. This duel, I felt, was a little more choreographed than the one on Bespin- meaning that I could tell it was being acted, and it looked less like a real fight.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi, Qui-Gon Jinn v.s. Darth Maul - while I have no respect for Maul as anything more than a mindless animal, this duel was very quality. While not fencing, it employed a lot of Kendo. The fight looks like a real struggle, rather than a series of dance moves.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi v.s. Count Dooku - overly choreographed, it looks more like dancing.

 

Anakin v.s. Count Dooku - again, far too choreographed. Favoring flash and pizazz over realism.

 

Obi-Wan, Anakin v.s. Count Dooku - far too choreographed. It's so phony it gets sad.

 

Mace Windu v.s. Darth Sidious - this was excusable, in Ian McDiarmid being elderly and not a swordsman. Not exactly awesome, yet unrealistic as well.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi v.s. Anakin Skywalker - the most overly choreographed, played out thing. It looked like Kenobi and Skywalker were dancing with one another, and not in a fight for their lives. Too much acrobatics.

 

Just offering my opinion, based upon over a decade of experience with swords and martial artistry. Opinions?

 

In order to say that one fight is too acrobatic or its more like a dance, you first have to be aware of the stance they are using. I know its a sci-fi universe but the duels are related to that type of fighting styles and not to real swordsmanship.

If you are interested, here are the stances and if you take the time to read them, you might find a lot of interesting stuff: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_combat

[Tuscad]

They show a whiney angry teen that slaughters an entire village of Sand People.

 

I agree with you on everything but I can't really hold the slaughter of the sand people against him, after all they tortured Anakin's mother to the brink of death (probably ***** her too). If I was in his shoes and had all of his power and abilities I would have done the exact same thing in that situation, I would give red sand a whole new meaning.

[liammozz]

how can you say the biggest fight of all six films was the worst, imho that fight was the best and made the most seance since they both have had years of training both with the force and sabers this is what i always expected a full out jedi v jedi too look like when a film maker has everything at there disposal to show it

 

on the other hand who was the jedi swords master who trained luke to stand his own against vader out of the two old guys i dont think obi or yoda had it in them to give him the training he needed to beat vader in a duel

 

so if you want to talk about whats stupid start with the fact luke with is 3 years of practising with a lightsaber with no one training him learning most of it by him self managed to hold his own against some one who had training from the best swords masters the jedi had to offer who has been in countless saber duels and trained with a saber for over 30 years

 

so when where talking about unrealistic lets take that into acount

Edited August 24, 2012 by liammozz

[Fyurii]

I agree with you on everything but I can't really hold the slaughter of the sand people against him, after all they tortured Anakin's mother to the brink of death (probably ***** her too). If I was in his shoes and had all of his power and abilities I would have done the exact same thing in that situation, I would give red sand a whole new meaning.

 

Long winded and highly off-topic reply/rant in a pm

[Tremed]

 

thats pretty much how sword play works in star wars.

[Fyurii]

In order to say that one fight is too acrobatic or its more like a dance, you first have to be aware of the stance they are using. I know its a sci-fi universe but the duels are related to that type of fighting styles and not to real swordsmanship.

 

As politely as possible... you're talking out of your behind.

All forms of sword combat have you aiming for your opponent's body, not the end of their weapon. No matter what kind of blade the weapon has, metal, wooden or plasma, the same basics apply.

 

They wouldn't be standing far enough apart that only the middle to ends of their weapons meet, they wouldn't swing over eachother's heads or pointlessly twirl their weapons at inopportune moments.

The reality is that the fights would be shorter and boring by comparison. Lucas wanted them to look flashy and cool, and that's what he got.

Unfortunately, because there was only one trained swordsman young and fit enough in the films (Ray Park) the choreography has to take into account the limited skills and proficiencies of the other actors.

If Christopher Lee had been twenty to thirty years younger, it would have been two. Go watch him as Roschefort in The Three Musketeers and The Four Musketeers (the latter especially). Any actor/actress who's been properly trained in sword fighting is evident on film. Those who haven't are equally as evident, but a well choreographed and filmed fight scene can really make the difference.

In the Original Trilogy, the camera work on both Luke vs Vader duels was far better done than in the Prequels. Those fights came off looking better through a combination of good choreography and good camera work. On a less serious note, a lack of pointless twirly-twirly-twirly-ness helps a lot.

 

If you are interested, here are the stances and if you take the time to read them, you might find a lot of interesting stuff: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_combat

 

Their on-screen appearances are all based on real world sword fighting techniques except for Vaapad. That's basically a mix of Sam Jackson in Episode II, and him under choreography direction for Episode III.

 

In all honesty, as an avid watcher of sword fights in film and an enthusiast in learning about real sword fighting (nowhere near me to participate and learn practically though) the choreography for the three TOR trailers/cinematics have superior fight choreography over the Prequels.

As fast a pace as what Lucas wanted for the Prequels, and more believable engagements.

[Zlaz]

I rarely have seen anything that looks close to real sword fighting in film. The problem is that real sword fighting doesn't really look very exciting, and duels would be very short, so really, most people don't want to watch that.

[ColdFireSM]

Luke Skywalker v.s. Darth Vader - on Bespin, Skywalker and Vader fought in the iconic duel that culminated with Vader's admitting to being Luke's father. This fight moved away from classical fencing- while retaining many elements- and closer into Kendo and Aikido style fighting. Choreographics were spectacular, in that it looked like a real duel.

Whoa dude, Spolier alert please lol!!

Edited August 24, 2012 by ColdFireSM