Vanguard Nerf Incoming

[Lemoncurry]

At the German Video-Games-Convention gamescom 2012, Gaming Insight held an interview with the German SWTOR Community Manager Lars Malcharek.

 

Among other things the CM stated, that regarding class-balance, the Powertech / Vanguard would be subject of some changes.

 

I tried to translate the relevant part of the interview as literal as possible [sorry for my English]:

 

 

Q: 'Will there be upcoming class-balances?'

 

A: 'There will be class-balances, as always, because we constantly monitor the balance. How massive these changes will be, I can't tell right now, they should not be too harsh though.

What I can tell, because I myself was affected as a gamer, is that the Powertech and his 'jedi-counterpart' [he doesn't remember the mirror AC's name there] will be forced to enter melee-range more often than before.

This is, because both AC's wear heavy armor and carry 'big guns' [sic]. To compensate that, they should get in danger more often.

At the moment, the Powertech can safely position himself pretty much in the rear with some skills and therefore we did some minor changes. These are the biggest changes I noticed so far, that some skills were tweaked in a way that you have to be in melee range more often. Since you are in melee pretty often right now, those changes won't make such a big impact though.'

 

 

to the interview (in German). Edited August 18, 2012 by Lemoncurry

[theangryllama]

Basically translated to flame burst/ion pulse becoming 4m melee range rather than 10m. Also possibly a shorter range on thermal/plastique?

 

I can kinda agree with this. Its a direct PvP nerf without rebalancing PvE dps to much

[RundoSim]

I want my Vanguard to use a techstaff, they are melee range

[_gideon]

Probably a range nerf on plastique. *Maybe* a range nerf on HIB which would hurt me a lot more and in both DPS and tanking modes.

 

Tbh I already try to be in melee most of the time so if they leave the dps/burst where it is I probably won't notice much.

Edited August 18, 2012 by _gideon

[warsaws]

at last, should encourage more rotation

[Suryi]

Thanks for the warning. I personally think it's a reasonable change although I don't agree with the mentality of "we have heavy armor we can take it" because heavy armor doesn't really mean much.

 

I took the liberty of creating a thread in the PT forums linking to this one for information purposes, hope you don't mind OP (didn't steal credit or anything, it's purely meant to inform our PT brothers ).

[Aelaias]

The change is only reasonable if the class gets more defensive cooldowns. I couldn'd care less about 30m range on dot and hib but that 10m on IP is the only thing that makes the single unremarkable defensive cooldown ok.

[vojinsa]

so you want more def cds on a class that has insane face melting abilities? should bw buff their self heal to 90% over 3 sec with a 8 sec cd? lets remove the channel on FT and it causes the target to flee (like warlock fear) spreading fire aoe dmg for 30 secs. RP can send the target flying out of the wz. give PT kolto injectors so they gain 50% hp if they dip under 80% health since they do use heavy armor right?

[Vedano]

I love watching vg's and pt's complain about defensive cd's and having to be in close quarters lol. You know there is a class and spec not unlike you guys thats a glass cannon as well. Its a focus guardian.

We do have 2 ranged abilities that dont really have anything to do with our heavy hitting abilities. MS is 4 yrd range, sweep/smash has a 5 yrd range which sometimes it seems my dick has a bigger radius than the sweep does, and thats really about it. Now if a good player slows us they can keep us focus starved and we cant attack or get focus back which is super awesome if they stay just inside that 10 yrd range so we cant use Force Leap or Saber Throw and were too far away to use Sunder Strike or Strike or Stasis.

 

Not only that but if they keep us at that range then we cant even attack anyways aside from Blade Storm provided we have the focus to use it. And they complain about defensive cd's and boo hoo ill have to play in melee.....we already do play in melee range and we wear heavy armor, and your cd's are waaaay better than ours. 15% of your health over 6 seconds regardless, and you have all kinds of abilities that lower the time on your cd's. Guardians dont. In focus spec we have Saber ward that has a 3 min cd which is *********** insane considering its crap, and Force Defense which uses 4 focus (2 if your specced into it in focus tree) and then proceeds to only grant health if you are attacked, and continues to take focus away from you to heal you for 3% of your health. If no one attacks you then you dont get healed, and its not for a percentage of the attack which would make more sense, its only 3%. So if a PT hits is with his god mode rail shot for 5k, we get about 533 hp, now thats what I call mitigation *thumbs up sarcastically* And not only that, its a waste of a cd considering focus is usually a focus starved class compared to the others anyways.

 

TL;DR So to all the vg's and pt's complaining about any upcoming changes, play a guadian in pvp, and you will be more than happy to go back to your OP class in a new york minute. Because have have crap for cd's, no way to lower the cd time on them in any way, shape or form, our heal over time is contingent on taking dmg that uses focus after it uses a significant amount of focus just to activate it, we can be kited very easily considering our deadzone and no way to shrink it, we have to power up our heavy hitting abilities unlike you guys who are just use when you want, and we are in the same gear as you. So before you go complaining about a potential nerf, know that you will still have the advantage over guardians by a long shot.

[DakoHawk]

I love watching vg's and pt's complain about defensive cd's and having to be in close quarters lol. You know there is a class and spec not unlike you guys thats a glass cannon as well. Its a focus guardian.

We do have 2 ranged abilities that dont really have anything to do with our heavy hitting abilities. MS is 4 yrd range, sweep/smash has a 5 yrd range which sometimes it seems my dick has a bigger radius than the sweep does, and thats really about it. Now if a good player slows us they can keep us focus starved and we cant attack or get focus back which is super awesome if they stay just inside that 10 yrd range so we cant use Force Leap or Saber Throw and were too far away to use Sunder Strike or Strike or Stasis.

 

Not only that but if they keep us at that range then we cant even attack anyways aside from Blade Storm provided we have the focus to use it. And they complain about defensive cd's and boo hoo ill have to play in melee.....we already do play in melee range and we wear heavy armor, and your cd's are waaaay better than ours. 15% of your health over 6 seconds regardless, and you have all kinds of abilities that lower the time on your cd's. Guardians dont. In focus spec we have Saber ward that has a 3 min cd which is *********** insane considering its crap, and Force Defense which uses 4 focus (2 if your specced into it in focus tree) and then proceeds to only grant health if you are attacked, and continues to take focus away from you to heal you for 3% of your health. If no one attacks you then you dont get healed, and its not for a percentage of the attack which would make more sense, its only 3%. So if a PT hits is with his god mode rail shot for 5k, we get about 533 hp, now thats what I call mitigation *thumbs up sarcastically* And not only that, its a waste of a cd considering focus is usually a focus starved class compared to the others anyways.

 

TL;DR So to all the vg's and pt's complaining about any upcoming changes, play a guadian in pvp, and you will be more than happy to go back to your OP class in a new york minute. Because have have crap for cd's, no way to lower the cd time on them in any way, shape or form, our heal over time is contingent on taking dmg that uses focus after it uses a significant amount of focus just to activate it, we can be kited very easily considering our deadzone and no way to shrink it, we have to power up our heavy hitting abilities unlike you guys who are just use when you want, and we are in the same gear as you. So before you go complaining about a potential nerf, know that you will still have the advantage over guardians by a long shot.

 

You dont seem to be quite accurate about vanguards since adrenaline rush is 10 seconds and you dont have your facts right on guardians either since force leap has a 30 meter range and has alot to do with your heavy hitting abilities.

[Zunayson]

Flame burst better not be melee range. If it is, AP better get a high end talent to increase it; the only servivability AP has over Assault is the kiting ability. Assault gets a lower Kolto Overload and energy shield CD!

[Vedano]

You dont seem to be quite accurate about vanguards since adrenaline rush is 10 seconds and you dont have your facts right on guardians either since force leap has a 30 meter range and has alot to do with your heavy hitting abilities.

 

I do understand that force leap has a 30 meter ranged, I mentioned that in my post, but it also has min range of 10 yards that I also mentioned. Since you dont read entire posts, let me illustrate the differences for you in a bit easier to read format.

 

Self Heals

Vanguard - Adrenaline Rush - 3 min cd - Restores 15% of maximum health over 10 seconds.

Guardian - Focus'd Defense - 45 sec cd - Immediately reduces threat by a moderate amount. For 10 seconds, taking damage spends 1 Focus to heal you for 3% of your maximum health and reduce threat by a low amount. This effect cannot occur more than once every second. This ability can be used while stunned or otherwise controlled.

 

Vanguard wins this one because a guardians heal is contingent on taking dmg and the fact that they have to have focus in order for it to work, not to mention it costs us focus to activate it as well. I know some might say well look at the difference in cd. Well Adrenaline Fueled has that covered with - Critical hits have a [50 / 100]% chance to reduce the active cooldown on Adrenaline Rush and Reserve Powercell by [3 seconds / 6 seconds]. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds. So that reduces the cd on that quite significantly. Moving on....

 

 

Damage Mitigation

Vanguard - Reactive Shield - 2 min cd - Reduces all damage taken by 25% for 12 seconds.

Guardian - Saber Ward - 3 min cd - Raises a lightsaber ward, increasing melee and ranged defense by 50% and reducing the damage taken from Force and tech attacks by 25%. Lasts 12 seconds.

 

This one I would say is in the vanguards favor as well.. The 50% added defense on Saber Ward is nice and the first 2 seconds of it the defense is actually at 150%, but the vanguard gets help with this already low cd ability from Reflexive Shield - When you take damage, you have [50 / 100]% chance to reduce the active cooldown of Reactive Shield by [1.5 seconds / 3 seconds]. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds not to mention that this ability gets a bit of a bonus from Degauss - Reactive Shield has a [50 / 100]% chance to remove all movement-impairing effects when activated. There is no such luxury for guardians to lower the cd on Saber Ward nor a movement impairing removal of any sort other than the stock Resolute ability we get. On top of that, the dmg mit for Vanguards is 25% of everything, the 25% for guardian does not include elemental or internal dmg taken, which can be a significant factor when trying to survive.

 

 

Increase in base stats

Vanguard - Steely Resolve - Increases Aim by 3%/6%/9%

Guardian - Perseverance - Increases total strength by 3%/6%

 

This one is pretty self explanatory, obvious favor in vanguard.

 

Stamina Increase

Vanguard - Soldiers Endurance - Increases endurance by 1%/2%/3%

Guardian - N/A

 

Armor Rating Increase

Vanguard - Rebraced Armor - Increases armor rating by 8%/16%

Guardian - N/A

 

So I think this simple illustration here makes it pretty clear who has the advantage on survivability and ability to stay in the game longer when it comes to Assault VG's and Focus Guardians. Not to mention that most of your hard hitting abilities have a much longer range than ours do, for example:

 

Vanguard - High Impact Bolt - 10m range

Vanguard - Ion Pulse - 10m range

 

Guardian - Master Strike - 4m range

Guardian - Force Sweep - 5m Range aoe

 

After reviewing this, there should really be no argument as to who has the advantage here. Please feel free to debate any of the points I have illustrated. Thank you.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Vedano

[Raji_Lev]

Honestly, as long as my PvE tanking abilities aren't hurt because of whatever BW does to shut the PVP kiddies up (until they come up with something ELSE to kvetch about, anyway), not a single [bLEEP!] will be given by me.

[ArcCaptain]

Self Heals

Vanguard - Adrenaline Rush - 3 min cd - Restores 15% of maximum health over 10 seconds.

Guardian - Focus'd Defense - 45 sec cd - Immediately reduces threat by a moderate amount. For 10 seconds, taking damage spends 1 Focus to heal you for 3% of your maximum health and reduce threat by a low amount. This effect cannot occur more than once every second. This ability can be used while stunned or otherwise controlled.

You're forgetting about some other Guardians self-healing abilities here.

1. Enure - 30% Maximum health for 10seconds. On a 90Second Cooldown

2. Guardian Leap Set Bonus - 8% Heal every use. On a 20second Cooldown

 

Guardians can also change between Soresu (Tanking Form) and Shii-cho instantly when under focus and are still able to build Singularity stacks, whilst Vanguards cannot switch stances instantly, and their High Impact Bolt Reset and Plasma Cell DOT can only trigger in Plasma Cell.

 

Increase in base stats

Vanguard - Steely Resolve - Increases Aim by 3%/6%/9%

Guardian - Perseverance - Increases total strength by 3%/6%

Stamina Increase

Vanguard - Soldiers Endurance - Increases endurance by 1%/2%/3%

Guardian - N/A

Armor Rating Increase

Vanguard - Rebraced Armor - Increases armor rating by 8%/16%

Guardian - N/A

 

The Base stat increase for Vanguards is a 3point talent, whilst for Guardians it is a 2point talent. Therefore Vanguards get no real advantage from this as they have to invest a further skill point to get 9%. It has it's uses but you can put the extra skill point in something else as a Guardian, so it balances out.

 

3% Endurance! No one other than tanks really takes this skill as it's not worth it. So no point saying it gives Vanguards an advantages as 3skill points is not worth 3% Extra Endurance.

 

Pyros also don't take the 16% Armor, so it's not an advantage to them as you've stated.

Edited August 19, 2012 by ArcCaptain

[Suryi]

We also never take Adrenaline Fueled (which reduces cd on our all so good heal according to the guy comparing Assault VG to Focus Guardian for some reason). Not to mention nobody takes Degauss either (the break from roots/slows on Reactive Shield activation). But hey if it helps to make a point who cares about facts right?

[Twor]

I somehow can't take information of an employee serious who doesn't even remember the mirror classes of the game he is supposed to be CM for.

Otherwise we'll see, as the reduction of base range would affect all trees and probably the merc as well through the shared pyro tree.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Twor

[Leiralei]

Of course, they have to ruin the other class I have at 50.

[Vedano]

We also never take Adrenaline Fueled (which reduces cd on our all so good heal according to the guy comparing Assault VG to Focus Guardian for some reason). Not to mention nobody takes Degauss either (the break from roots/slows on Reactive Shield activation). But hey if it helps to make a point who cares about facts right?

 

If you dont take abilities that would directly impact your survivability in pvp then dont complain about survivability lol. Wow, I mean thats like complaining about your ankle hurting while your walking on it and refusing to get a cast on it.....you complain about something you can affect directly with. And if I had an ability to lower the cd of a self heal and had a root removal ability that was not my trinket like cd, I would take that in a ****in heart beat, are you kidding me?

 

Yeah, I can break out of a root if im on a burner or about to get to a med pack or about to interrupt someone from capping a node.....but thats not important enough to take cause having utility and helping out my ranked team isnt as important as my numbers are.

 

And honestly I would trade enure for adrenaline rush any day. Why you might ask? Because Enure is borrowed health, once the effect is up the added health is gone. Its not permanent. And the 8% heal from guardian leap is nice, I forgot about that one and I will concede that self heals would be about even then.

 

 

Guardians can also change between Soresu (Tanking Form) and Shii-cho instantly when under focus and are still able to build Singularity stacks, whilst Vanguards cannot switch stances instantly, and their High Impact Bolt Reset and Plasma Cell DOT can only trigger in Plasma Cell.

 

Sure, we can change stance instantly, and we can build singularity during a switch, but our focus is reset to zero. It would effectively render us moot for atleast a good 10 seconds to build up enough focus to do some dmg again, and our damage has been cut dramatically by being in soresu form from Single Saber Mastery which increases all our force attacks by 6%. Also the 20% armor pen thats static while in shii-cho form and the added 3% from the form itself.

 

The Base stat increase for Vanguards is a 3point talent, whilst for Guardians it is a 2point talent. Therefore Vanguards get no real advantage from this as they have to invest a further skill point to get 9%. It has it's uses but you can put the extra skill point in something else as a Guardian, so it balances out.

 

Balances out cause we can put a point somewhere else.....balances out? Really? What one thing does everyone try to increase the most for pvp? Why is it that people will buy more wh pieces when theyre full wh already? To increase their base stat. If you asked guardians if they wanted 3% more str or an extra talent point, I'm pretty sure it would be a resounding 3% increase to base stat.

 

 

Pyros also don't take the 16% Armor, so it's not an advantage to them as you've stated.

 

If I had the option to increase my base armor for pvp I would definitely do so. You also might ask why. Well, as we are all well aware armor is the only defensive mechanism that mitigates damage across the board to tech and force abilities which are the hardest hitting. The more you have the less dmg you take from those abilities. Again, it goes back to the ankle and not wearing a cast while walking on it and complaining it hurts lol. Maybe vanguards and powertechs are masochists in their own way and like to take more damage for some strange reason, but I know guardians dont, which is why we will change to soresu form if we need to to sacrifice our focus for survivability. We cant attack at the moment, but we may live longer for it.

[Aelaias]

I am sorry, a focus Jug with half a clue will have a vanguard at 1/3 health before they are able to do anything. They can only do it once every 30 seconds but don't complain to me about it, I didn't design the class. And operatives work the same way.completely immobilizing the target and taking them down for most of their health. At this point that 10 m range on IP is required to try to get back into the saddle. Don't invoke crap skills you know nothing about, doesn't help you make your point, just makes you look ignorant. Edited August 19, 2012 by Aelaias

[Suryi]

If you dont take abilities that would directly impact your survivability in pvp then dont complain about survivability lol. Wow, I mean thats like complaining about your ankle hurting while your walking on it and refusing to get a cast on it.....you complain about something you can affect directly with. And if I had an ability to lower the cd of a self heal and had a root removal ability that was not my trinket like cd, I would take that in a ****in heart beat, are you kidding me?

 

Yeah, I can break out of a root if im on a burner or about to get to a med pack or about to interrupt someone from capping a node.....but thats not important enough to take cause having utility and helping out my ranked team isnt as important as my numbers are.

 

When speccing 31 assault you can't have both Adrenaline Fueled and Reflexive Shield (CD reduction on shield every time we're hit). Doing so would impact DPS too much and DPS is why you bring an assautl VG into a rwz team. That's how we help them out, by adding very powerful front-loaded burst to any target that's being called. And nobody speccs Degauss because you don't pop shield to get free from a root, you pop shield to reduce damage and so the benefit from Degauss is way way way too situational to be worth 2 points.

 

Sure, we can change stance instantly, and we can build singularity during a switch, but our focus is reset to zero. It would effectively render us moot for atleast a good 10 seconds to build up enough focus to do some dmg again, and our damage has been cut dramatically by being in soresu form from Single Saber Mastery which increases all our force attacks by 6%. Also the 20% armor pen thats static while in shii-cho form and the added 3% from the form itself.

 

You say Focus Guardian survivability sucks, then make your ankle analogy and then you complain about instant stance swap. You have the option to instantly swap, when focused down, to a defensive stance reducing damage taken by 5% and increasing your armor by a fair amount giving you an overall 20% extra damage resistance to energy and kinetic attacks. Yes you lose DPS ofc but the option is there to give your team time to help you out/heal you up/peel for you and then you can swap back. We have a cast time that is subject to spell pushback i.e. we'd never be able to change from Plasma Cell to Ion Cell when under focus.

 

Well, as we are all well aware armor is the only defensive mechanism that mitigates damage across the board to tech and force abilities which are the hardest hitting. The more you have the less dmg you take from those abilities.

Armor only mitigates kinetic/energy not Internal/Elemental so while helpful it certainly doesn't "mitigate damage across the board". At any rate a 16% boost to armor comes to what 1-2% extra DR? For 2 points? Okay...

 

Sure there's option to slightly increase survivability but in pvp this entails oh**** buttons not situational or barely noticeable bonuses to mitigation. Like Enure; yes you lose your HP and you live on burrowed time, but that time can mean some much needed heals/ time for a guard/ peels/ etc. And like I've said the only reason why you'd want an assault vanguard in your team is because of the DPS, that's it. Everything else they can potentially do is a side benefit.

 

At any rate why compare Focus Guardian to Assault VG? Assault is the only thing a VG can do in a ranked environment. There's literally no point in taking a shield spec over a defense guardian and there's no point in being Tactics when you can be Assault. Nerfing the range on Ion Pulse has the potential of screwing over Assault by not only shutting down their ability to kite but by forcing them to stay in melee range on the premise of "they have heavy armor they can take it". It would solve some issues people have with this AC but if there's nothing given to compensate, to give us more uptime by increasing survivability or being able to buy time then, well, **** :/ I mean really, pure melee with no gap closer? And don't say harpoon... just don't...

[ChaoticDynamite]

Do I get two free pets with this upcoming nerf.

[ArcCaptain]

and I will concede that self heals would be about even then.

lol, you can't even admit that guardians have better self healing than Vanguards. Guardian Leap heals for 8% on a 20second cooldown. So every 40seconds you can heal for 14% of your health. Whilst Vanguards can only heal for 15% every 3minutes. That alone is better self healing, and I haven't even taken into account the other healing abilities you have.

 

And honestly I would trade enure for adrenaline rush any day.

2 completely different abilities. Endure is used to survive longer when under focus. For example you're about to score in Huttball and need some extra health to get over the line before the other team kills you. Adrenaline Rush on the other hand is an ability used when damage from small skirmishes. 15% over 10 seconds isn't a lot, and only really serves a purpose in 1v1's.

 

But our focus is reset to zero. It would effectively render us moot for atleast a good 10 seconds to build up enough focus to do some dmg again

10 Seconds? Please, you can easily build up the focus you need within two to three global cooldowns.

 

Balances out cause we can put a point somewhere else.....balances out? Really

Quite simply you can put the skill points into Accuracy or Defiance. You won't have to stack as much accuracy and can therefore go after power or another stat instead of using more accuracy enhancements. Or Defiance or will help build focus as this seems to be such a problem for you.

 

If I had the option to increase my base armor for pvp I would definitely do so.

Armor only comes into account when under attack from certain classes where most of their abilities are either Weapon, Kinetic or Energy damage. It has no use against Internal and Elemental damage and alot of classes have abilities which use this damage type. It's just not worth it.

 

Besides, the abilities you're arguing about are abilities which Pyro and Assault Specialist's DON'T take in their skill trees. It's not an argument of you're handicapping yourself, it's the Vanguard DPS builds don't take those traits. Stop acting like we have unlimited skill points and can take anything we want.

Edited August 20, 2012 by ArcCaptain

[iNeXxS]

I think the range tweak is the best possible rebalance to Vanguards/PT's. The only problem is that we are MUCH too squishy to be a frontline melee class. Frontline melee DPS are Sentinels and DPS Guardians. Both of which have much higher survivability than a Vanguard. We need one more CD to be able to survive because with a 4m Ion Pulse, we cannot kite melee and ranged classes can kite us easily, resulting in more damage taken to an already squishy class.

[Suryi]

I think the range tweak is the best possible rebalance to Vanguards/PT's. The only problem is that we are MUCH too squishy to be a frontline melee class. Frontline melee DPS are Sentinels and DPS Guardians. Both of which have much higher survivability than a Vanguard. We need one more CD to be able to survive because with a 4m Ion Pulse, we cannot kite melee and ranged classes can kite us easily, resulting in more damage taken to an already squishy class.

 

A nice sum up of the situation

[So-low]

While decreasing the range will hurt survivability, I am more concerned with a lack of a gap closer.

 

For PVP, other pure melee classes have a leap ability that still works if a target is at full resolve, and has a lower CD without having to spec into it. VGs only have harpoon, which partially fills resolve, and does not work on a target with a full resolve bar, as well as has a longer CD.

 

For PVE, it would be disastrous. Think: Firebrand/Stormcaller fight where you have to get back on the tank after being in the shield; Gharj after his knockback; getting to the bomber on the Kephess fight (harpoon does work but it generates threat); getting to Soa while hes down right after killing a mind trap; killing the mind traps.. the list goes on. Right now it's already tough with the lack of a gap closer, but its ok becuase many abilites are 10m+. If they make our main abilites 4m then we will lag behind most of the other classes.

 

If they decide to nerf us to 4m, then they need to add a defensive CD (or shorten the CD time of the ones we have now), and make storm an ability that is given to us automatically, not just in the tank tree.