Why no Chiss Sith? (Ignoring Legacy for a moment.)

[BodyThetanMan]

I know, I know - Chiss Ascendency culture frowns on Force-using Chiss. I'm not sure why, but that's not the point right now.

 

The Treaty of Csilla - the treaty that allowed the Ascendency to join the Empire without having been 'conquered' by them and remaining mostly autonomous - oddly enough doesn't compel the Ascendency to turn over their Force Sensitives.

 

When the Empire began training aliens as Sith, mostly to make up for the losses suffered during the war, you'd think people like the Empire would have compelled the Ascendency to turn over their Force Sensitives the way they forced the Rattataki to.

 

Is there a lore reason why there are no Chiss Sith in this time period?

[Captain_Zone]

The Chiss believe in keeping a clear head in combat. Thrawn is an example of how clear thinking can beat blind rage. Their culture wouldn't be the ideal place to find potential Sith. The Chiss philosophy would be more in conjunction with the Jedi, in fact. Enter battle calmly. Don't panic. Don't let emotion cloud your judgment.

 

I'm not saying there can't be exceptions to the rule. Just saying that it would not be very common to find a Chiss that really embraces his anger enough to be a Sith.

 

Oh, and there's the fact that not very many of them are Force sensitive to begin with.

[ScarletBlaze]

I know, I know - Chiss Ascendency culture frowns on Force-using Chiss. I'm not sure why, but that's not the point right now.

 

The Treaty of Csilla - the treaty that allowed the Ascendency to join the Empire without having been 'conquered' by them and remaining mostly autonomous - oddly enough doesn't compel the Ascendency to turn over their Force Sensitives.

 

When the Empire began training aliens as Sith, mostly to make up for the losses suffered during the war, you'd think people like the Empire would have compelled the Ascendency to turn over their Force Sensitives the way they forced the Rattataki to.

 

Is there a lore reason why there are no Chiss Sith in this time period?

 

 

This could be the reason that the Empire did not compell the Ascendency to turn over an Force Sensitives:

 

When the Sith Empire returned in 3,681 BBY to fight the Republic once more during the Great Galactic War and the Cold War, the Chiss Ascendancy was the only actual ally of the Empire, unlike all the species that the empire subjugated, and some Chiss were known to serve as Imperial Agents.

 

 

You treat your allies a little differently than the worlds and species you subjugated.

 

 

Just my two cents.

[BodyThetanMan]

This could be the reason that the Empire did not compell the Ascendency to turn over an Force Sensitives:

 

When the Sith Empire returned in 3,681 BBY to fight the Republic once more during the Great Galactic War and the Cold War, the Chiss Ascendancy was the only actual ally of the Empire, unlike all the species that the empire subjugated, and some Chiss were known to serve as Imperial Agents.

 

 

You treat your allies a little differently than the worlds and species you subjugated.

 

 

Just my two cents.

 

Makes sense. Thanks.

[Mutive]

I was under the impression, too, that one of the advantages that the Ascendancy had over the subjugated governments was that they were allowed to do things more or less their own way.

 

Supposedly Force sensitive Chiss are very, very rare. So I'd assume that when they do crop up, the Ascendancy wants to keep them close, rather than surrender them. Likely one of the terms of the treaty is that the Ascendancy can use their (very few) Force sensitives however they want, which from the Sith POV isn't that big a deal, as they have lots of Force sensitives, anyway.

[Eleuril]

I'd love to know where people are getting it from that Chiss Force-sensitives are very rare. It's something I've seen repeated all over the internet, along with "Chiss cannot be Force-sensitive", but I haven't seen a canon source stating as much. Does anyone have such a source? Not meaning to stir up trouble or anything, just curious. I couldn't find anything on Wookieepedia.

 

It certainly appears that Chiss Force-users are extremely rare, but we don't really know much about their society in that respect. As far as we know, they don't have any organisation of Force-users like the Jedi or Sith. That seems to fit in with their rational, cautious mindset. They don't seem the sort to have much time for mysterious powers. Bear in mind an untrained Force-sensitive can't do very much if they don't even know about the Force, so a Chiss with those abilities might just seem to have faster reflexes or to be unusually good at anticipating future events.

 

Concerning Imperial relations, if you play the Imperial Agent storyline through Hoth, you find that:

 

Raina Temple is a Force-sensitive whose father sent her from Imperial space to the Chiss Ascendancy, so she wouldn't be taken by the SIth or executed.

 

So, it appears the Chiss Ascendancy is indeed exempt from Imperial rules on Force-sensitives.

 

I play a Chiss SW, mostly because I wanted to work through how such a character might act and what their story might be. It's interesting (to me, anyway) to think about how he would deal with reconciling his upbringing and his current life, how he views other Sith, what he plans for the future and so on. Also because I had the mental image of his instructors going, "No, no, get ANGRY at them!". SW: "Grr?"

 

That last remark aside, it's worth remembering that Chiss do have emotions, it's more that their culture discourages showing too much emotion or letting it control you. That places them at odds with the Sith philosophy of giving into your passions and emotions. This, if anything, is why Chiss Sith would be at least extremely rare. They look down on that sort of thing as being immature and the preserve of those dreadful other species.

 

However, not all Sith allow their emotions to control them, that's important to remember. If you go into a blind rage and lose control, that's something that can be easily used against you. I envision my Chiss SW as being the sort to carefully use his emotions as a weapon - using them, not letting them use him. Calculating, rational and calm, but simmering with a cold, quiet fury he can utilise as he sees fit.

[PaerisKiran]

Chiss is fully mature within 10-13 years of his/her life, during that time he/she effectively mentaly manages what humans do for 20 years (studies, puberty... everything). And most of the time they, in terms of both intelligence and physical skills (metabolism is faster than common human- giving chiss greater "burst of power" at cost of exhaustion) against human.

 

Chiss, all of them, undergo extreme conditioning and learning way how their orderly society goes. In human years Thrawn was teenager when he nearly wiped out Vagaari, destroyed Vagaari, and destroyed 1 trade federation mothership, captured another, with most of it´s fighter complement intact... With 2 frigates (100 men of crew) and 4 starfighters.

 

Sure, If you take a chiss out of his/her society and they do not undergo this drill you may find some force sensitives who can actualy be molded. (Dooku had one force sensitive agent (comics), one other may have been in lukes order (as a child)) Though do not get your hopes up... Chiss simply are too "cold and logical", mostly mentraly incapable of "trusting the Force".

 

Chiss used to be human long time ago, but few dozen of millenia evolution on frozen wasteland does marvels. (They also developed technology that outmatched even Old Republic when Jorj Cardass and later trade federation stumbled on them- Chiss hyperdrives were truly superior to those of republic... so was their maser weaponry.)

 

Only downside of beeing chiss is shorter lifespan of faster metabolism- 80 years naturaly at best... human can pull of 100... 130 with SW tech and medicine. (chiss could probably squeeze a decade or two using science too)

 

Chiss simply are not "Force" material...

[RazielHex]

The Chiss are an Autocracy. They're independent of the Empire. They really don't have to do anything the Sith want them to.

[chuixupu]

Having read all of Timothy Zahn's books (he is the creator of the Chiss species), I read some things people say about them and it leaves me scratching my head a little... Did you guys just skim through Wookiepedia? They're certainly emotional people, they just culturally restrain themselves more than most humans would. There isn't any reason to believe they're "incapable" of being a force user. It's just not something their society recognizes. Take someone like Leia who was force sensitive, but never really aware of it until it was *made* known to her.

 

There are a couple of Chiss force users in some SW material - you can look them up pretty easily, I haven't ever read the stuff they're in.

 

Funny thing is, Chiss were never intended to have been in contact with the Empire or Republic until the Clone Wars - at that point neither side had any knowledge of each others language, culture, or technology. Someone asked Zahn what he thought about the Chiss being in the Old Republic and he said you'd just have to figure they completely forgot about each other in 3600 years....guess it's not impossible, if the Chiss felt they were threatened enough and decided they wanted to disappear back into the Chiss space.

Edited August 12, 2012 by chuixupu

[Eleuril]

Having read all of Timothy Zahn's books (he is the creator of the Chiss species), I read some things people say about them and it leaves me scratching my head a little... Did you guys just skim through Wookiepedia? They're certainly emotional people, they just culturally restrain themselves more than most humans would. There isn't any reason to believe they're "incapable" of being a force user. It's just not something their society recognizes. Take someone like Leia who was force sensitive, but never really aware of it.

 

Yes, this is pretty much what I was thinking. Plenty of times in Zahn's novels we see Chiss show emotion. They're a lot more restrained than humans, but they do experience and display emotions. They have a cultural distaste for acting on their passions because they believe it's a waste of energy and can lead to irrational actions. Honestly, one of my favourite parts of Outbound Flight is Chaf'orm'bintrano storming out in a huff after realising Thrawn's outplayed him.

 

There certainly have been Chiss Force-users in canon - at least two, Sev'rance Tann and Kung'urama'nuruodo, the former of whom used the Dark Side. So it is possible, if not common. I think we can safely say the potential exists for Chiss to become Sith at this time in history, but it would be a rare occurrence, given the anti-alien bias of the Empire and their own cultural mindset. If we can have Chiss becoming bounty hunters, something else that goes against their culture, I am sure the occasional Chiss Force-user isn't so bad.

[Zacula]

Easy answer: The Chiss are not technically part of the Empire. Bounty Hunters are independent, and when you play through the Imperial Agent story you realize that Imperial Intelligence serves the Empire, but is a fairly autonomous branch (meaning Chiss members are less directed by the Empire). However, the two Sith classes are directly Imperial. The Inquisitor is an Imperial slave who was forced to become Sith, something the treaty between the Chiss and the Empire probably wouldn't allow, and the Warrior was raised from birth in the Empire, something again unusual for the Chiss.

[PaerisKiran]

Yes, this is pretty much what I was thinking. Plenty of times in Zahn's novels we see Chiss show emotion. They're a lot more restrained than humans, but they do experience and display emotions. They have a cultural distaste for acting on their passions because they believe it's a waste of energy and can lead to irrational actions. Honestly, one of my favourite parts of Outbound Flight is Chaf'orm'bintrano storming out in a huff after realising Thrawn's outplayed him.

 

There certainly have been Chiss Force-users in canon - at least two, Sev'rance Tann and Kung'urama'nuruodo, the former of whom used the Dark Side. So it is possible, if not common. I think we can safely say the potential exists for Chiss to become Sith at this time in history, but it would be a rare occurrence, given the anti-alien bias of the Empire and their own cultural mindset. If we can have Chiss becoming bounty hunters, something else that goes against their culture, I am sure the occasional Chiss Force-user isn't so bad.

 

I was much more satisfied with revised Formbi´s wiew in Survivor´s quest. (Where he essentialy pulls "Thrawn" on his own against Vagaari)

And of course it is possible... it just is not likely for anyone who was subjected to beeing raised up within Ascendancy.

 

As Jagged and Chak Fel said- Chiss put insane requirements on their children... (Sith academy mostly educates teenagers (little point of dooing it sooner)) Now imagine the indignity of having 5 years old Chiss displaying more knowledge and skills most races get in 15 years of age?

[chuixupu]

If we can have Chiss becoming bounty hunters, something else that goes against their culture, I am sure the occasional Chiss Force-user isn't so bad.

 

Yeah that...I figure that any Chiss that is either a force user or bounty hunter would have to be sort of a rebel, or born outside the Ascendancy (as was the case of Kung'urama'nuruodo, an orphan). Thrawn was a bit of a rebel, at least, he had very different, unpopular ideas about how to conduct his business and it led to him getting exiled from the Ascendancy and joining the Empire. I'll note that the "no pre-emptive strike" policy probably did not exist during the time of the Old Republic game, I recall someone mentioning in either Outbound Flight or Survivors' Quest that it had been in effect for a 1000 years. That's assuming the people who write for the game read little details like that.

 

Here's the quote from Tim Zahn, just for the record:

 

"If I had to hand-wave this one, I'd probably say that over the thousands of years between SWTOR and HttE the Chiss pulled back to their own territory and the records of them were lost.

 

From another point of view, of course, the fact that the game designers thought the Chiss popular enough to include is a wonderful compliment. However we have to work things to make the the continuity shake out, it's an honor to have Thrawn's people kicking butt and taking names.

 

Now if only someone could get them to ask me to write a side adventure ... <G> "

 

Get on that one, Bioware

Edited August 12, 2012 by chuixupu

[Eleuril]

I was much more satisfied with revised Formbi´s wiew in Survivor´s quest. (Where he essentialy pulls "Thrawn" on his own against Vagaari)

And of course it is possible... it just is not likely for anyone who was subjected to beeing raised up within Ascendancy.

 

Formbi becoming a bit more tactically minded over the years is a nice development, but I also recall Thrawn having a bit of a temper himself. It looks like we're thinking along the same lines here. I'm also saying it's possible but unlikely for someone from the Ascendancy to become a Force-user, due to their isolation and cultural mindset.

 

As Jagged and Chak Fel said- Chiss put insane requirements on their children... (Sith academy mostly educates teenagers (little point of dooing it sooner)) Now imagine the indignity of having 5 years old Chiss displaying more knowledge and skills most races get in 15 years of age?

 

Definitely an issue when the alien kid's showing the rest of you up, I can't see it being popular with the more traditional, anti-alien Sith. Not to mention that Chiss mature faster than humans, being physically and mentally adults by twelve or so. I wouldn't want to be one of the kids in the same class as one of them on Korriban, that's for sure.

 

The Inquisitor is an Imperial slave who was forced to become Sith, something the treaty between the Chiss and the Empire probably wouldn't allow, and the Warrior was raised from birth in the Empire, something again unusual for the Chiss.

 

Correct. From the in-game storyline point of view, Chiss don't make much sense. I'm coming at it more from a roleplayer's point of view., so I guess I'm approaching this from the wrong angle. My Chiss SW has an entirely different backstory to that presented in the class storyline. Of course, it wouldn't make sense for him to be from a respected Sith lineage, so he...isn't. (Yes, there's an element of me justifying one of my own character choices here, I'll admit it...) It's certainly understandable why Chiss aren't initially available as either Sith class, but I dispute that they could never, ever become Sith.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Eleuril

[PaerisKiran]

Here's the quote from Tim Zahn, just for the record:

 

"If I had to hand-wave this one, I'd probably say that over the thousands of years between SWTOR and HttE the Chiss pulled back to their own territory and the records of them were lost.

 

From another point of view, of course, the fact that the game designers thought the Chiss popular enough to include is a wonderful compliment. However we have to work things to make the the continuity shake out, it's an honor to have Thrawn's people kicking butt and taking names.

 

Now if only someone could get them to ask me to write a side adventure ... <G> "

 

Get on that one, Bioware

 

How fortunate that there already exist an explanation... New Sith wars that gradualy concluded by 7th battle of Ruusan- (cca 1000 before battle of Yavin) where what was left of Sith Brotherhood of Darkness and Jedi´s Army of light clashed against one another.

 

Sith survivors within galaxy could be counted on fingers of one hand and Jedi looses were terrible. (They would be no better of than Sith but for once Valenthine Farfalla did heed Jedi Lord Hoth and left Ruusan with his forces before thought bomb sealed Hoth, his men and Sith under Kaan within what was leter called "Valley of the Jedi" (presumably only "grey" nexus of Force ever)

 

However if you look at the state of galaxy- Sith Empire fell appart completly, Sith Archives suffered by centuries of neglect and disrepair, Republic effectively was governing Coruscant and nothing else in the galaxy, technology fell to point that bows and arrows were common since blaster was just to expensive and rare to give to common soldier.

 

General CHAOS within the galaxy was so large that they were lucky to not have to reinvent space travel which became limited.

 

I can easily see Chiss Ascendancy botling itself up, and going for expansion deeper into unknown regions, rather than toward this mess. (which very well may acount for it in the end having superior (albeit not by much) technology than rest of galaxy. (Hyperdrives being prime example as unknown regions are bi... to navigate and fly through)

 

Not to mention that Chiss may wery well have put up "China like" isolation from middle ages where they simply decided that mainstream galaxy was too uncivilized to even speak about it. (and truth be told at that time they would be right) so Thrawn would not learn much about it if it was deliberatly purged...

General Chiss sentiment as expressed by Thrawn "Chiss do not embrace other people´s ideas without careful consideration." may have very well applied.

 

Chaos of 7th battle of Ruusan can effectively cover up almost ANY loss of knowledge about virtualy anything.

Edited August 12, 2012 by PaerisKiran

[Eleuril]

I can easily see Chiss Ascendancy botling itself up, and going for expansion deeper into unknown regions, rather than toward this mess. (which very well may acount for it in the end having superior (albeit not by much) technology than rest of galaxy. (Hyperdrives being prime example as unknown regions are bi... to navigate and fly through)

 

Not to mention that Chiss may wery well have put up "China like" isolation from middle ages where they simply decided that mainstream galaxy was too uncivilized to even speak about it. (and truth be told at that time they would be right) so Thrawn would not learn much about it if it was deliberatly purged...

General Chiss sentiment as expressed by Thrawn "Chiss do not embrace other people´s ideas without careful consideration." may have very well applied.

 

I had similar ideas about the whole thing. I wonder what direction the story is going to take and if the Chiss' experiences with the Empire and the Sith might not reinforce their ideas of isolation and xenophobia.

 

"Now if only someone could get them to ask me to write a side adventure ... <G> "

 

Oh, please do this, Bioware. Please. A little nugget of Chiss story written by Mr. Zahn would make me so happy.

[chuixupu]

Sure, I agree, I kind of figured something like that makes an adequate explanation....though it's still a little odd that the Chiss would have *completely* forgotten everything about the Empire and have no knowledge of droids, Basic, etc.. (even if you can more easily see Empire/Republic forgetting about the Chiss)

It's still a retcon....but Star Wars lives on retcons.

 

But then you can figure that somewhere, some archive has some hidden records somewhere.

 

Maybe even in that big old library Car'das ended up building.

 

If Bioware ever does go more into Chiss culture, like actually have players go into Chiss space, I hope they do keep all of this under consideration and don't just pull stuff out of their butts.

Edited August 12, 2012 by chuixupu

[Mutive]

I'd love to know where people are getting it from that Chiss Force-sensitives are very rare. It's something I've seen repeated all over the internet, along with "Chiss cannot be Force-sensitive", but I haven't seen a canon source stating as much. Does anyone have such a source? Not meaning to stir up trouble or anything, just curious. I couldn't find anything on Wookieepedia.

 

I thought I'd found something on the Wookieepedia that stated they were rare. (Or possibly a source book.) But there certainly are canon Chiss force-sensitives. So it's possible, just not as likely as for, say, Sith purebloods or Miraluka. (Not sure how common it is compared with, say, humans. Or Miralan. Or cyborgs, etc.) It's possible, too, that it's reasonably common, just not something prized by society. (So a fair number are like Temple - able to do little tricks, but not trained to the extent that they could do much more than have hunches about stuff.)

[Kaisernick]

my chiss sage has a rp backstory that links to this.

 

the short version is:

when my agent found out his son was force sensitive, he sent him off the cisila rather than him being made a sith yet his ship was ambushed on the way to chiss space by republic forces and a jedi who found the young buy sent him to typhon.

he sent him to chiss space because as part of the treaty, the empire cannot force any chiss to become sith without the consent of the family.

[Myrmicus]

Having a Sith Chiss is easy enough : my Chiss Inquisitor background is as follow :

She was from an assassin family (since political assassination is a part of Chiss political life). Her family, doing a lot of dirty work, are accepted by other more honorable families and, as such, are mostly ignored. The Kata (my chiss family) take advantage of this by allowing the Force Sensitive within their ranks to express their power, as long as nobody knows.

 

My Inquisitor used he powers to climb the Chiss hierarchy, which would prove to be her downfall : even though most CHiss look the other way when a Kata do something, this also means they can't become important political figures... and when one Kata enters the Nuruodo house (one of the ruling family) through adoption, everyone freakout. Soon, her powers are discovered but, since the Kata know a lot of dirty secrets, she isn't executed for her transgression and is, instead, exiled with the whole Kata family.

 

From there, she end up being sold as a slave to the Ascendancy ally : the Sith. And we have a force sensitive slave, just like the Inquisitor backstory.

[MikeCobalt]

"Better to reign in *** than serve in ******" and all that. Throughout History smaller less capable nations/groups have aligned themselves (More or Less) with the "Bad Guys" then to take the loss's of resisting like everybody else does. It would *Greatly reduce the "Butchers Bill" to go in with the Empire if the Chiss felt they (as a standalone sect) couldn't stand the inevitable defeat and death toll. The Chiss lack friends among the Many other species so they may have felt alone. A sense of "Aristocracy" typically sets off other more casual members, that alone would make people Not want to *Associate with them thus leading to suspicion, scrutiny and awkwardness. Once it was known widely the Chiss had aligned with the Empire that further separated them from the rest of the Galaxy. They have few "Sith Capable" but plenty of what the Empire likes.