Can any MMO really succeed today?

[Aricus]

They have... and nobody buys them.

 

IE. The Secret World

 

I can't comment to omuch on the Secret World, but the reason why I had no interest in it was because the game didn't look very appealing, animation were clunky and so was combat.

 

For an MMO to succeed it has to have fluid game play that is first and foremost and it's one of the things WoW has done so well. While other games including this one fell short.

[Wolfninjajedi]

WoW really is only doing so well because its in china, where theres millions of people that can play for pennies a day thats where the large portion of their subs come from. If they weren't there, then WoW wouldn't be lasting as long as it does now.

 

But to those saying that they need to do something new, well....everybody doesn't like the new thing they want something that is easy and isn't so complicated. So how are you suppose to do something new, without it having be complexed and difficult to understand?

[Aricus]

WoW really is only doing so well because its in china, where theres millions of people that can play for pennies a day thats where the large portion of their subs come from. If they weren't there, then WoW wouldn't be lasting as long as it does now.

 

But to those saying that they need to do something new, well....everybody doesn't like the new thing they want something that is easy and isn't so complicated. So how are you suppose to do something new, without it having be complexed and difficult to understand?

 

But even without China WoW still has about 4 million subs in NA/EU. No other MMO ever came close to 4 million subs in NA/EU market only.

[Briq]

Rift follows option 1 more than 2. The only thing trion added differently was the spec system and the rift events. However, outside of that you pretty much have WoW written all over it. The Pvp gear grind, and the pve gear grind from raids and dungeons. However, I cannot speak for the recent updates since I stop playing a year ago, but at launch Rift was pretty much WoW.

 

re-read it... familiar elements are in both categories.... the key differences with the options that I was pointing out are budget and intention. the budget required to take on WoW will be HUGE.. SWTOR had a huge budget and placed the lions share of that on the story and voice over aspect on their game... they gambled on that to be the wow killer and lost.

 

rift on the other hand never intended to be the wow killer but instead made a very solid game that every gamer could play with little/no learning curve and then offered something very few people had ever seen in the way of specs and dynamic world events(which was lifted from warhammer)

 

now you see how rift is an option 2 game.....

[Aricus]

re-read it... familiar elements are in both categories.... the key differences with the options that I was pointing out are budget and intention. the budget required to take on WoW will be HUGE.. SWTOR had a huge budget and placed the lions share of that on the story and voice over aspect on their game... they gambled on that to be the wow killer and lost.

 

rift on the other hand never intended to be the wow killer but instead made a very solid game that every gamer could play with little/no learning curve and then offered something very few people had ever seen in the way of specs and dynamic world events(which was lifted from warhammer)

 

now you see how rift is an option 2 game.....

 

$50 million budget is a little above average for MMOs. In fact that was bigger than Vanilla WoWs budget and even Vanguard's budget. SWTOR is an extreme example of an over budget MMO or game for the matter.

 

In other words Trion's budget wasn't small like you're implying.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Aricus

[Sowwy]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned WoW's timely entry into the market. It is my opinion that if WoW had been released later, in the saturated market we have today, it would not have matured into the behemoth we all know it to be.

EQ, despite all its flaws, was stirring broader chatter. While it wasn't "new", it certainly broke the proverbial cultural ice and shined some light on MMO's. WoW released a few short years later, and it was relatively polished, it had cartoony but charismatic art, was easy and branded with the Blizzard name, but most importantly, it had no real competition (EQ/DAoC targetted niche markets, aka traditional gamers). Once the revenue stream became a deluge, development gained some serious upward momentum ensuring enough content could be generated to please current subscribers while savvy marketing kept fresh numbers coming in. WoW is a well made game, and I cannot imagine it failing regardless of market conditions, but I'm doubtful that it could have mustered such incredible momentum if it hadn't released in 2004, when the iron was hot.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Sowwy

[Wolfninjajedi]

But even without China WoW still has about 4 million subs in NA/EU. No other MMO ever came close to 4 million subs in NA/EU market only.

 

While true, its still a drastic drop in subs when you take China out of the equation.

[Dystopic]

I think new mmos can succeed. There are several things developers need to understand about players and the market right now though.

 

1) The market is saturated. If you overhype and lie we will notice and leave. We have choices.

 

2) Be realistic about the number of players you plan to attract. WOW is an anomaly and a dying anomaly at that. You will not get 10 million subscribers. You may get 2.5 million. If you do, you are successful. Hugely successful. But also need to understand that a sub fee is not free money. We bought the game and servers have almost no fee for maintenance. I paid 20$ for left for dead 2 on steam and have not paid a penny since and I play online almost every day. Your servers are not worth 15$ a month. That sub fee is for content. Content should be coming out at least every 3 months. Rift figured this out and is still around and doing very well, well enough to have an expansion coming out.

 

3) Copying another games mechanics can work if you use moderation. If your game is basically an entire copy players will notice and not be happy. They will also likely be bored. WOW may have kept me interested for 2 years but once I burnt out I burnt out, do you really think replacing a sword with a lightsaber will fix that? It won't. The deja vu kicks in quick.

 

In short, think smaller and don't be afraid to try new things. Don't spend 100 million developing a game hoping for 10 milling subscribers. Start smaller with the hopes of building bigger later on. Most companies don't do this though. They want the cash cow wow has been and they want it now.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Dystopic

[Moatcarp]

I can't comment to omuch on the Secret World, but the reason why I had no interest in it was because the game didn't look very appealing, animation were clunky and so was combat.

 

For an MMO to succeed it has to have fluid game play that is first and foremost and it's one of the things WoW has done so well. While other games including this one fell short.

 

So in other words... make WoW.

[Vellem]

Actually no WOW hate.

 

You read it how you wished to preceive it.

 

Again, I spoke nothing but FACTS.

Not fandom fiction

Not hater fiction

 

WOW was a marketing showcase

WOW was also a watered down MMO on training wheels (I didnt create that tagline btw, if you have been around as long as you claim, then you saw multiple sources using that tag line during the beta and at release for WOW. If you didnt, then you didnt pay half as much attention as you claim to the genre. WOW was not well received at beta and at launch. It was well received after a brilliant advertising campaign started, after Mila Kunis name dropped the game on Letterman (along with other celebrities that clearly never played the game and were being paid to advertise via social media) and yes after South Park made it famous.

 

Why on earth would I claim WOW was better, harder, more polished then it was?

 

Personally I beta tested game, found it insultingly easy and also got head aches from the cartoonish graphics and color usage. Game wasnt for me and I didnt play.

 

But that doesnt change fact that WOW was not innovative, WOW was not creative, WOW was not the creation of MMORPG competition.

 

WOW was simply EQ with saturday morning cartoon graphics and a insanely easy leveling curve.

 

As for your market research,

 

Ill say it again and Ill speak slower this time

 

If you ask 10000000000000000000000000000000000 WOW players what they want out of a MMORPG, they will tell you WOW.

 

HOWEVER, WOW players are already playing WOW so they are not the audience developers should be aiming for because THEY ALREADY LIKE THEIR GAME THEIR PLAYING.

 

Aion, TOR, Rift all targetted WOW players with the WOW market research and all of them (plus many others) have failed because THEIR customer base is not covered by the WOW marketting research.

 

Cant say it any more clear then that

 

You ask 1000 kids in McDonalds who makes the best burgers and they will most likely say McDonalds

Its not true, the reseach isnt valid, yet every person who agrees with the research outcome will try to use it like it is valid and usefull.

 

There is a reason people commonly refer to WOW as the McDonalds of MMORPGs.

High profit, high fan base numbers, LOW PRODUCT QUALITY

 

And like McDonalds, cheap knock offs dont end up very successfull (geee like cheap knock offs of WOW, amazing how it all comes togather.)

 

And lastly, the OPs post was COMPLETELY WRONG

He gives WOW credit where MMORPG titles that came 14 years before WOW launched were already developing ideas and mechanics and standards!

 

I dont hate McDonalds, but you will never convince me to set culinary standards and practices by what McDonalds serves and prepares.

 

And you will never convince me WOW was the be all and end all of creative design in the MMORPG genre.

 

Because neither (McDs or WOW as high quality products) are true.

They both are fast and sloppy, just the way the new generation likes things!

 

Let me try it again more slowly so maybe you can understand....

 

Basically your whole post is invalid because you start by saying everything you say is a FACT. Maybe you need a reminder of what a fact actually is.

 

fact

   [fakt] Show IPA

noun

1.

something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.

 

What you've been spouting off is your Opinion and is completely Subjective Am I going slowly enough for you? Let me Help...

 

sub·jec·tive

   [suhb-jek-tiv] Show IPA

adjective

1.

existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought ( opposed to objective).

2.

pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation.

3.

placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions, etc.; unduly egocentric.

 

o·pin·ion

   [uh-pin-yuhn] Show IPA

noun

1.

a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

2.

a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

 

When you say something silly like WoW is like McDonalds and has a lot of players but is low quality, that is you stating your subjective opinion and not a fact. Got it? Glad we could clear that up. Let me give you an example. My opinion is that you are laughably flat out dead wrong and that WoW is actually a high quality MMO.

 

Also, there is a finite number of MMO players so if you are making a new one you can't say "Yeah, just ignore all the WoW players, we don't need any of them. We will get a whole new market."

 

You think because WoW had a few commercials that was the reason for their success? You bias is still showing. EQ which was the most popular MMO before WoW came along had TV spots that ran during prime time. Remember those "Time to kill the dragon" or whatever they were called commercials? At it's most popular EQ never even had a fraction of the playerbase of WoW. They did something differentand I already said what that was. They took the punishment part out of MMO's and made it more fun.

 

The cartoon graphics you keep whining about were carried over from the Warcraft RTS series because it was a continuation of that story and had the bonus of letting people with mid to lower end PC's still play the game. Having more players = more subs = more money. Not a bad plan. You say no hate but every word you type about the game is barely concealed rage about it. Get over it.

 

For a MMO to succeed today I think I needs to have more than one element to it. It has to be a blend of sandbox and themepark. It can't just be about raiding or pvp at endgame, it should have a ton of things to do that all don't have to be tied to character advancement. swtor has a casino in it with no playable games for example. Missed oppertunity there.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Vellem

[Vellem]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned WoW's timely entry into the market. It is my opinion that if WoW had been released later, in the saturated market we have today, it would not have matured into the behemoth we all know it to be.

EQ, despite all its flaws, was stirring broader chatter. While it wasn't "new", it certainly broke the proverbial cultural ice and shined some light on MMO's. WoW released a few short years later, and it was relatively polished, it had cartoony but charismatic art, was easy and branded with the Blizzard name, but most importantly, it had no real competition (EQ/DAoC targetted niche markets, aka traditional gamers). Once the revenue stream became a deluge, development gained some serious upward momentum ensuring enough content could be generated to please current subscribers while savvy marketing kept fresh numbers coming in. WoW is a well made game, and I cannot imagine it failing regardless of market conditions, but I'm doubtful that it could have mustered such incredible momentum if it hadn't released in 2004, when the iron was hot.

 

I did mention that in an earlier post.

[Aricus]

So in other words... make WoW.

 

No, in other words make the game's combat fluid. I doesn't really matter how you do it, just make sure it's responsive.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Aricus

[Briq]

No, in other words make the game's combat fluid. I doesn't really matter how you do it, just make sure it's responsive.

 

I don't know what game introduced us to the global cooldown but that is one change that could have been left out of the market.

 

DAOC had no GCD, the ability speed was determined by stats, you didn't have to wait until the icon lit up again on every ability.... the the combat was super responsive because of the lack of the GCD

[Aricus]

I don't know what game introduced us to the global cooldown but that is one change that could have been left out of the market.

 

DAOC had no GCD, the ability speed was determined by stats, you didn't have to wait until the icon lit up again on every ability.... the the combat was super responsive because of the lack of the GCD

 

I am not referring to the GCD. I am referring to when you press a button the server or client response is instant. You don't press the skill button then see the skill active 1/2 second later. So once again i am referring to responsiveness, not combat mechanics.

 

Also WoW had GCD but the response was still very good. Unlike other games such as Warhammer, AoC, and even here (Though SWTOR's has improved a bit since launch).

Edited August 11, 2012 by Aricus

[zeron]

$50 million budget is a little above average for MMOs. In fact that was bigger than Vanilla WoWs budget and even Vanguard's budget. SWTOR is an extreme example of an over budget MMO or game for the matter.

 

In other words Trion's budget wasn't small like you're implying.

 

Thats because the development cost has increased over the years in tech, the amount of time and modeling of textures, models, and programing is alot more then the time of vanilla wow. Just look at the polygon count and text res of rift compare to classic wow

 

also what wow did was just polished and refined what many mmo did before Raids EQ1, Instances AO, pvp daoc etc

Edited August 11, 2012 by zeron

[Cavell]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned WoW's timely entry into the market. It is my opinion that if WoW had been released later, in the saturated market we have today, it would not have matured into the behemoth we all know it to be.

 

The market is saturated because of WoW. Everyone saw WoW's numbers - they've earned over 10 billion from that game alone - and figured they wanted a slice of the pie. Hence, why everyone and their dog got into the MMO market.

 

As others have said, you cannot just reskin WoW and expect the money to roll in. No one is ever going to out-WoW WoW, yet that is what everyone - almost - has tried. The few exceptions are, on the balance, actually doing fairly well.

 

TOR set itself up to fail. It cost a ludicrous amount of money to make, and it had no hope of ever earning it back and becoming a profitable game unless it was an amazing piece of development. It wasn't.

[Briq]

$50 million budget is a little above average for MMOs. In fact that was bigger than Vanilla WoWs budget and even Vanguard's budget. SWTOR is an extreme example of an over budget MMO or game for the matter.

 

In other words Trion's budget wasn't small like you're implying.

 

 

by comparison to SWTOR(which was trying to be the WoW killer), it was.

[Briq]

The market is saturated because of WoW. Everyone saw WoW's numbers - they've earned over 10 billion from that game alone - and figured they wanted a slice of the pie. Hence, why everyone and their dog got into the MMO market.

 

As others have said, you cannot just reskin WoW and expect the money to roll in. No one is ever going to out-WoW WoW, yet that is what everyone - almost - has tried. The few exceptions are, on the balance, actually doing fairly well.

 

TOR set itself up to fail. It cost a ludicrous amount of money to make, and it had no hope of ever earning it back and becoming a profitable game unless it was an amazing piece of development. It wasn't.

 

exactly.

[boxfetish]

It just seems like any MMO that comes out today eventually loses so many of their subscriptions and popularity from when it first comes out. I get the impression that this is the worst genre to make a game for. It seems impossible to satisfy today's MMO players. I blame WoW for this. WoW came out during a time when MMO competition wasn't as fierce, and a lot of MMO concepts hadn't been established yet. Eventually it took off to massive popularity. As time went on, they continually dumbed the game down more and more, and continually added features. Somehow it still remains the most popular MMO.

 

Every MMO that has launched since WoW has not seemed to fare that well, with the best doing "ok" in the market. It is a cycle that I have seen constantly for years. People get all excited about a new MMO coming out. They set their expectations impossibly high. They expect the MMOs to have everything that WoW has. Thing is WoW has had so much time to add these features, and people have stuck with that game all this time. It seems MMO players today are not willing to do that. They want a ridiculous amount of features in their MMO and they want it NOW. So people always say the next MMO will kill WoW, and when it doesn't have this ridiculous amount of features that they expected, they quit the game. Then the cycle continues and people say the next MMO will be the one to "kill WoW" and then they are disappointed once more.

 

I guess my main question is... Is there even any point to making an MMO in today's market? Is there any profit in it? Do you really think GW2 will do any better than SWToR, or Rift, or the other MMOs that have come out since WoW? IMO this game seems to be dying, but can any MMO besides WoW really thrive in today's market? I assure you, GW2 will not be the WoW killer or the end all be all to MMOs. I feel that the problem lies with the market and not the games. The MMO crowd is now impossible to satisfy, impossible to satiate. It's not only this game that is dying, it is the genre itself.

 

Didn't even read the OP, but the answer is "yes". If you are not a huge gaming conglomerate hoping against hope for the next WoW, expecting to make everyone filthy rich. It used to be that "success" was thought to be a few hundred thousand active subs. There is no reason why that couldn't still be true. I would call EvE online quite a success. Of course, if I were human excrement and I only cared about other people or things in the terms of how much money I could take them for, I guess I wouldn't call it success.

[Sowwy]

The market is saturated because of WoW. Everyone saw WoW's numbers - they've earned over 10 billion from that game alone - and figured they wanted a slice of the pie. Hence, why everyone and their dog got into the MMO market.

 

As others have said, you cannot just reskin WoW and expect the money to roll in. No one is ever going to out-WoW WoW, yet that is what everyone - almost - has tried. The few exceptions are, on the balance, actually doing fairly well.

 

TOR set itself up to fail. It cost a ludicrous amount of money to make, and it had no hope of ever earning it back and becoming a profitable game unless it was an amazing piece of development. It wasn't.

 

My point wasn't that WoW was a catalyst, only that factors were stacked in its favor.

 

And I disagree that swtor was itself up to fail. Not at least in regards to the game itself. TOR is still rife with potential. Unfortunately, it has been mismanaged into the ground.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Sowwy

[Xarlelso]

I played WOW for years and quit last November to get ready for this game. When SWTOR announced F2P I decided to start my WOW client up again and get the updates I have missed out on. Guess what.. there where NO updates! Everyone is complaining here about the lack of NEW CONTENT.. well WOW hasn't even done a patch in this whole time. The only update I had was a launcher update to fix a small bug with launcher failing to load sometimes.

[Goretzu]

You realise theres dozens of MMO's released every year that does exactly what you say.....and no one notices.

 

I dunno about dozens, but I do know they don't have a $200 millon budget and a top rate IP behind them.

[kevlarto]

What is your definition of success? What are some current mainstream MMOs that actually died and shut down their servers? Sure some are more successful than others, but that doesn't mean the others weren't successful.

 

Too many people think that success means dethroning WoW and that's just a bad way of looking at it. I'm reluctant to say it, but I feel WoW is an anomaly. It happened in a period of time with lack of alternatives (social gaming and social media wise) and was accessible enough to attract millions upon millions. For many that will be their one and only MMO! For many others, they are already so vested (in time put in) in WOW that they will not leave that behind until it dies of natural causes (old age).

 

Success in its most basic form? Player enjoyment enough to keep logging back in while maintaining enough profit to keep the lights on?

 

I agree 100% wow is an anomoly, in fact a leaking sub one now.. I am not going to say we will never see another game do what wow has done, I doubt we will, even blizzards new mmo Titan will most likely not do as well as wow, times have changed since wow released, we have a ton of games and options out there today when wow launched you could count all the mmo's on your fingers, plus wow taped the casual player market that was pretty much left out of mmo's by thier hardcore mechanics, wow was at the right place right time with the right product.

 

To me there is only one kind of success or failure that is how it does in the industry, many games out there to today have a good niche market and will keep making money for years to come, they don't need millions of players to be a hit in thier eyes. You see far more niche games than wow type games thats for sure.

 

One thing the mmo industry needs is some diversity in the game play for new mmo's, for them to be able to grab that niche of the market, we need hybrids, Theme\Sandbox\RTS\FPS what ever combo works.

 

It's a tough crowd out there and for the new mmo to make it they need to think outside the box and not just offer up another eq or wow clone, that model is getting old and it is starting to show as wow lost 1.1 million subs last quarter some will come back for MOP, no doubt, but the mmo industry as a whole has grown stale.

My toon does not feel like it lives in the game world just playing through it these days, and for a mmo to be a succses on what ever level players need to have options and feel like that toon is part of the world.

[Listerman]

^ This. Swag.

 

Swag is for little boys. Class is for men.

[Kalfear]

Let me try it again more slowly so maybe you can understand....

 

Basically your whole post is invalid because you start by saying everything you say is a FACT. Maybe you need a reminder of what a fact actually is.

 

.

 

Stopped reading there, talk as slow as you normally do (dont worry, practice will help the words form faster for you)

 

I tried to speak facts to you

Tried to explain how this genre works

Tried to show you WOW didnt create, found, evolve this genre

 

You are one of the new brand

 

"I played WOW, it must be the best and first and greatest"

Let me guess, you dont think the American Civil war happened either because you were not alive to see it

 

Hate kids with no respect for what came before them and you clearly fit the bill so im done.

 

You have no clue what your speaking about.

 

I gave you the FACTS, rest is up to you.

 

Long and short is MMORPGs can work and the subscription MMORPG can work when Developers stop targetting YOUR GENERATION of instant gratification meme's and start putting quality before quantity.

 

When they start understanding that one paying long term customer is better then 10 whiny short term customers, they will succeed.

 

Or as others have said, stop coping WOW and stop pandering to its spoiled customer base of instant gratification meme's.

 

Let me guess, you disagree (rolls eyes, of course you do, your not that special little flower in the answer who is more important then everyone else....tough).

 

FACT, I cant explain it all any more clear for you and yours.

FACT, You should not be the target audience outside of WOW because you have no respect for anything but WOW (no matter if it came before or after the Golden Archs of MMORPGs)

FACT, you can argue a fact all you want, its still a FACT. YOU dont get to redefine its meaning

FACT, Have a nice day and enjoy your weekend, in time and with experience you will come to understand the MMORPG genre and how ALL THE GAME AND TITLES (and not just WOW) influenced and developed the genre. Till then, best to let the adults speak.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Kalfear