Master_Nate Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) I am looking to open a discussion in regards to the CD on Cleanse for healers. I poke my head into a lot of forum posts for PvP and see a lot of demands for PT/Vanguards to be nerfed due to their high burst damage. I recently leveled up a Vanguard to 38 just to see what some of the talk was about and see for myself. Though I have not completed this particular character I can say, from my experience, that they do put out a lot of DPS at the low levels. They do put out a lot of damage at the 50 level too but regardless of that, my comments/discussion is based mostly on the debuffs they can put out. They may have more but off the top of my head I was able to put out two debuffs instantly on my Vanguard using Ion Pulse and Incendiary Round. When viewing their tree sets a lot of their power seems to stim from hitting burning targets which makes sense, that is their specialty. You can even debuff your opponent by just Pew Pew'ng at them. Their power has caused a lot of uproar in the forums without many ideas of how to counter them. Mostly what I read is L2P or they are OP. Let me go on record that while yes, they are strong, I do not think they are as OP as everyone makes them out to be. My proposal is to buff the healing trees to reduce the CD on their cleanses. Currently you can spec in the healing tree, if you go high enough, to add a heal to your cleanse. Though this may seem nice, it's pretty pointless for me as it's not a big enough heal to truly use. It is nice as a spot heal but I don't depend on it. The CD for my cleanse on my Operative is 5 secs. I thinkt he Sorc is the same way but it's been awhile since I have been on him and I can't comment on BH as I have yet to play one of them as a healer. What I am getting at is that I can be hit with their ION Pulse, which is instant mind you, but I do have the ability to cleanse it. However, again they have the ability to use Ion Pulse or Incendiary Round instantly again thus my cleanse because ineffective and a waste of energy if being FF. This goes for the team I am healing as well, I can't keep up with all the debuffs out there and maybe I shouldn't but I do try to keep up with the PT/Vanguards and the Lethality ones, but again my cleanse has a CD of 5 secs. Sure it is not long but when there are so many instant abilities that are debuffs it's pretty much a no win contest. My suggestion is to either modify the healing tree to add a reduction in CD on the cleanse, or make it instant and cost more energy but that may be too OP... or maybe even change the set bonus for the PvP gear as 4 piece set only gives you 5 extra energy, which for 4 piece doesn't seem to justify that. The 4 piece set could add the reduction in the CD to cleanse, so it's still something you have to work towards and have it WORTH working for. I am not looking for a nerf or a buff per say, I'm really just looking for an open discussion on what people think about this idea. Such as your concerns and issues with or against it. I know there are angles I haven't thought of so please be constructive with the replies and maybe....just maybe a discussion can take place. Thanks. Edited August 9, 2012 by Master_Nate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luciferhawke Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 cleanse works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvtcarnage Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 No CD on cleanse would hurt watchman dots to much I think, their dots are not instant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Nate Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 cleanse works? I've never seen an issue with it. I seem to be able to cleanse through PT/Vanguard debuffs and Lethality on my Operative as well as leg shot. On my sorc i seem to be able to cleanse though Whirlwind, affliction and things like that. Perhaps I am just cleansing late and the effects are wearing off.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daiyukie Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 My first suggestion for reducing tank spec PT burst is taking away some of the armor penetration, but my second suggestion is to make either the dots harder to apply or easier to cleanse, so I agree with changing the useless deep-healing skill from "small heal on cleanse" to "CD removed". Set bonus isn't a bad idea either, since 5 energy is completely worthless for 4-piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Nate Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) No CD on cleanse would hurt watchman dots to much I think, their dots are not instant. i agree, I don't notice people complaining about sents and marauders for their DoTs but that is one of the reasons I did mention it being OP if instant. This does require healers to look for these DoTs which some do and most do not from what I gather. To me, just this little change for healers could really change some PvP games and even balance out some of the issues people have. As I mentioned earlier, I don't think these two classes, PT/Marauders, are out of whack. I only think there is an issue on how to handle some of the things that they can do. I was just looking for a way to reduce the CD even if it was by 1-2 secs. Sure seems meaningless to some but for me as a healer it's pretty big deal. I am glad you brought this up though as I have never really got through working on my marauder and don't fully understand all that they can do. Thanks for not calling me an idiot as I am looking for real talk about what classes can and can not do Edited August 9, 2012 by Master_Nate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 cleanse works? Not if you're a sorc healer, no. We get to clear DoT's from force classes, ops and mercs get to handle the non force classes. Thus why we have no way to stop a PT/VG from plowing through us (or anyone else for that matter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Nate Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) Not if you're a sorc healer, no. We get to clear DoT's from force classes, ops and mercs get to handle the non force classes. Thus why we have no way to stop a PT/VG from plowing through us (or anyone else for that matter). This could be a whole new discussion but would it be too much if sorcs could cleanse non-force debuffs? Heck, that would be a better spec point spent if the trees were adjusted in that manner to cleanse universally and disregard the "heal" ability the cleanse points currently get you, but I don't want this thread coming off as I'm looking for a buff to healers or anything like that. Simply a discussion on how to balance out some things without nerfs flying all over the place. You are absolutely correct though and this was a big issue to me so I also went and made an Operative healer as I think the ability to cleanse is underrated right now and needs adjusting, but that's merely my opinion. With so many PT/Van currently I wanted to be able to provide teams some protection but as the point of this thread, it's very hard to do with the CD we have and so many debuffs are instant. Edited August 9, 2012 by Master_Nate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistols Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 tank spec PT burst /sigh Amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daiyukie Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 /sigh Amazing. Should I really have to specify hybrid or are there actually masochistic players out there using PTs as pure tanks for PvP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistols Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Should I really have to specify hybrid or are there actually masochistic players out there using PTs as pure tanks for PvP? The fact you put "tank" in your melodramatic post was lulzy enough, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Nate Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) Should I really have to specify hybrid or are there actually masochistic players out there using PTs as pure tanks for PvP? For the record, I knew what you meant and it's fine. That doesn't make what you posted any less valuable to the discussion at hand imo and thanks for your post regardless. Edited August 9, 2012 by Master_Nate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcol Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 The 1 point in Mend (for a sage) is not just a useless heal, it is the reason you can cleanse negative physical effects such as fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brool Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 personally speaking clense should be able to get rid of all dots, not just some dots. Sages should not be only able to clense force debuffs, ect ect ect. I think this would help a lot of the whining. I've leveled up and played 7 AC's. I dont think pt/van or sent/mara's are over powered. I also only feel the only thing wrong with sages is the clense aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 The 1 point in Mend (for a sage) is not just a useless heal, it is the reason you can cleanse negative physical effects such as fire. I'm pretty sure Fire is considered a Tech effect. That extra point lets us cleanse bleeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brool Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 I'm pretty sure Fire is considered a Tech effect. That extra point lets us cleanse bleeds. correct, we cannot clense pt/vanguard fire dots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Nate Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) personally speaking clense should be able to get rid of all dots, not just some dots. Sages should not be only able to clense force debuffs, ect ect ect. I think this would help a lot of the whining. I've leveled up and played 7 AC's. I dont think pt/van or sent/mara's are over powered. I also only feel the only thing wrong with sages is the clense aspect. That is kind of my point too. I think it would cut down on people calling for the PT/VG nerf and then it would be an adjustment for healers to actually understand when to cleanse. I say it in that manner because from personal experience, I don't get teamed up with many in pvp or pve that use cleanse or even have it on their hotbar which always makes me gasp. This could stim from the issue of Sorc's not being able to cleanse Tech debuffs but I'd rather see a change to the mechanics of the healing specs versus a nerf to more classes. I'm not going to correct/tell anyone how to play their class but it kills me sometimes when people go off on rants about being upset bout aspects of the game that other players, or themselves, could "handle" if they used their abilities as they were intended and not unmapped because it's viewed as worthless. Cleanses, IMO, are not worthless...not by a long shot. Edited August 9, 2012 by Master_Nate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luciferhawke Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 The 1 point in Mend (for a sage) is not just a useless heal, it is the reason you can cleanse negative physical effects such as fire. cleansing fire..hoho. good one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trauglodyte Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 THe idea of restricting cleanse was pretty good at the beginning. But, it is hard as hell to tell who has what on them let alone whether you can actually get rid of it. The cool down should probably be 3s but all cleanse should remove everything with a limit of two. On top of that, I'd say that the cleanse talent, instead of healing the target, should probably remove an additional effect. I haven't played a healer in quite some time so I don't know how much of a heal it is but I can't imagine that it is that ground shaking or that healers would miss it. From the stand point of PvP, when you're looking to support your teammates, you can see up to 5-10 debuffs on your target. Knocking off two at a time every 5s doesn't make much of a dent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Nate Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) THe idea of restricting cleanse was pretty good at the beginning. But, it is hard as hell to tell who has what on them let alone whether you can actually get rid of it. The cool down should probably be 3s but all cleanse should remove everything with a limit of two. On top of that, I'd say that the cleanse talent, instead of healing the target, should probably remove an additional effect. I haven't played a healer in quite some time so I don't know how much of a heal it is but I can't imagine that it is that ground shaking or that healers would miss it. From the stand point of PvP, when you're looking to support your teammates, you can see up to 5-10 debuffs on your target. Knocking off two at a time every 5s doesn't make much of a dent. I like your idea of increasing the effects that it removes vs the tiny heal that it produces. From what I have gathered so far, making it instant would be too OP and that is what I expected, but it's interesting to see others that think a reduction in CD could make things better. Tbh, I expected to be blasted when making this thread as this is the first one I have ever started but this has been one of those things I have been wondering about from the PvP community for about a month now. I am waiting to hear a PT/VG player chime in and discuss if it would affect them tremendously or not. A watchmen sent has stated his issue with it and he makes a valid point, all good stuff. Edited August 9, 2012 by Master_Nate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 The "Separation of Powers" with regards to Cleanses may have been a good theory, but due to the way the class populations worked out has failed to be effective in practice. As a Sorc, I can really only cleanse Sorc/Sage effects and those are the least scary DoTs in the game. Since I can't cleanse the actual scary DoTs, my Cleanse is fairly useless making my healer less valuable to a PvP team. They need to make the Cleanse universal with the talent and remove the (super efficient, but far too weak to be effective) heal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenzali Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 cleansing fire..hoho. good one! I know it doesn't work for PT fire, but it should work for Sentinel's blue fire since theirs is physical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonNH Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) Right, the commando can cleanse the PT fire, but it doesn't help much since it gets put right back on and you have a 4.5s wait to cleanse the next one. You get one out of every three DoTs, basically. Add the 100% chance to slow the target when combustible gas cylinder is activated (which seems very often), and field aid is pretty anemic to deal with the DoT from a PT. Seems like the only real solution is to CC the PT or take him out. Doesn't look like the intention is for healers to adequately address it, even if left alone to turret heal. Edited August 9, 2012 by JasonNH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anwg Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Problem is a lot of dots have cooldowns, if you remove the one from dispel, then dot trees like lethality (the only dot spec with some dispel protection) become completely garbage.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daiyukie Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Problem is a lot of dots have cooldowns, if you remove the one from dispel, then dot trees like lethality (the only dot spec with some dispel protection) become completely garbage.. Therefore the solution is to make PT dots harder to apply since they're both powerful and spammable. A short cd or simple combo requirement would be nice, especially since delay causes many times where I have cleansed, they haven't reapplied and instead use their next GCD to Railshot me, despite me not having an actual debuff, just residual visual flames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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