Diminishing Returns on Expertise????

[homeloard]

OK I have looked at a number of threads but a definative answer still eludes me. Is there a DR on expertise and if so what are the factors that determine what it is. I play a Gunslinger and am at 19722 health with 1722 experience and 1861 cunning for the basics with everything augmented endurance and cunning. I have not equiped the full War Hero due to the lack of accuracy and was thinking on getting non expertise gear instead so I can balance things out my way.

 

Any thoughts or data will be greatly appreciated.

CB

[Kawiki]

Yes there it. However it is very gradual.

 

Once your experitse exceeds 1100 you can start swapping out PvP for PvE gear. I personally like to keep my expertise around 1200 however as I feel squishy with any less.

[Pvtcarnage]

My understanding is expertise is King after changes made in 1.2

[islander]

Kawiki is correct as far as I know.

 

I dont know about when (if ) there is a right time to swap out pve for pvp gear though. Although I am now thinking I'll swap out my WH crystal for my power one tonight and see if I notice a difference (1255 versus 1215)

Edited August 8, 2012 by islander

[Ghostuka]

Over 1000 it has a soft cap. It gradually has more diminishing returns over 1100. Over 1200, adding more expertise barely does any benefit.

[stendarrs]

Over 1000 it has a soft cap. It gradually has more diminishing returns over 1100. Over 1200, adding more expertise barely does any benefit.

 

I'm not saying this isn't true or "pics or didn't happen", I'm just curious if you have any links to the data behind this statement. Thanks

[Kawiki]

Here is a link that shows the stat benefits. Graphs at bottom of first post

 

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-998.html

 

As you can see the benefit from expertise scales quite well past 2500 (not that you can get that high).

[Pvtcarnage]

Over 1000 it has a soft cap. It gradually has more diminishing returns over 1100. Over 1200, adding more expertise barely does any benefit.

 

I would also like to be pointed at said information

[Ghostuka]

No pics or anything. I just started removing my gear and checked the expertise level. Until 1000 if you divide your expertise by the damage bonus, you will get some linear number. Over 1000, the ratio slightly changes. Over 1100, it gradually keeps changing. I think at 1200, you should have like... 24% more damage due to expertise. And in 1328 expertise, I think it is 24.34% (okay I may be remembering these % bonuses wrong, but the difference should be in the ball park). At 1000 expertise you should have slightly over 21%. The difference between 1000 and 1200 is much greater than the difference between 1200 and 1300+. So, I drew my conclusion from there.

 

It is a simple test really. Remove your pvp gear and check your PVP bonus from expertise. Slowly put them on and check how much it goes up.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Ghostuka

[Ghostuka]

Here is a link that shows the stat benefits. Graphs at bottom of first post

 

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-998.html

 

As you can see the benefit from expertise scales quite well past 2500 (not that you can get that high).

 

Hmm... Perhaps I remember it wrong then. I will check the expertise differences when I get home again.

[islander]

No pics or anything. I just started removing my gear and checked the expertise level. Until 1000 if you divide your expertise by the damage bonus, you will get some linear number. Over 1000, the ratio slightly changes. Over 1100, it gradually keeps changing. I think at 1200, you should have like... 24% more damage due to expertise. And in 1328 expertise, I think it is 24.34% (okay I may be remembering these % bonuses wrong, but the difference should be in the ball park). At 1000 expertise you should have slightly over 21%. The difference between 1000 and 1200 is much greater than the difference between 1200 and 1300+. So, I drew my conclusion from there.

 

It is a simple test really. Remove your pvp gear and check your PVP bonus from expertise. Slowly put them on and check how much it goes up.

 

He's right. That line does curve - ever so slightly - starting at 1000. That slight curve is consistent, at least through 1300 that's as far as I looked. Whether or not replacing expertise with pve stuff is more beneficial is a different question.

[Darth_Philar]

He's right. That line does curve - ever so slightly - starting at 1000. That slight curve is consistent, at least through 1300 that's as far as I looked. Whether or not replacing expertise with pve stuff is more beneficial is a different question.

 

Expertise is multiplicative whereas other stats are additive (with respect to damage). This means that at specific levels of of Expertise, specific levels of other stats will result in a net DPS gain.

 

For example:

 

If I have an Expertise boost of 10% and deal 1000 damage I will do 1100 damage.

If I increase my Expertise boost to 11% I will deal 1110 damage for a net gain of 10 damage.

If I were to keep my Expertise boost of 10% and increase my damage to 1010 I will deal 1111 damage for a net gain of 11 damage.

 

Granted, this is a very simplified example, but it illustrates the concept.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Darth_Philar

[Theology]

~40 expertise around 1200 continues to add .50% damage against players until you hit the cap at 1332.

[islander]

Expertise is multiplicative whereas other stats are additive (with respect to damage). This means that at specific levels of of Expertise, specific levels of other stats will result in a net DPS gain.

 

For example:

 

If I have an Expertise boost of 10% and deal 1000 damage I will do 1100 damage.

If I increase my Expertise boost to 11% I will deal 1110 damage for a net gain of 10 damage.

If I were to keep my Expertise boost of 10% and increase my damage to 1010 I will deal 1111 damage for a net gain of 11 damage.

 

Granted, this is a very simplified example, but it illustrates the concept.

 

Indeed, and it's only one half of the equation (the other half being extra damage received). This is where/why I get hesitant to do so. Especially being I'm not a pure DPSer but a 21 point corruption.

Edited August 8, 2012 by islander

[Darth_Philar]

Indeed, and it's only one half of the equation (the other half being extra damage received). This is where/why I get hesitant to do so. Especially being I'm not a pure DPSer but a 21 point corruption.

 

Mixing PvE with PvP gear is feasible for some ACs, but not for others. I wouldn't recommend it for any of the Sorcerer/Sage trees as you won't live long enough for that extra DPS/HPS to be worth it. You are squishy AND a primary attack target.

[islander]

You are squishy AND a primary attack target.

 

Oh so true. I'll mess around with the power crystal though tonight and see how it does a couple nights. I've got a pretty good baseline of damage/healing done now in various warzone/scenarios. Voidstar's always the easiest one to compare/contrast.

[funkiestj]

~40 expertise around 1200 continues to add .50% damage against players until you hit the cap at 1332.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by hitting a cap here.

 

1332 exp => 24.4848 dmg boost

1372 exp => 24.9951 // delta 0.5103%

 

1500 exp => 26.5605%

1540 exp => 27.0293% // delta 0.4687%

further along we have:

 

1800 => 29.8561%

1840 => 30.2590% // delta 0.4028%

 

at 1800 expertise, another 40 points gives us 80% as much return as it did at 1332 expertise. I'd hardly call that capped but perhaps I do not understand the theory crafting meaning of this word.

[xstortion]

I'm not sure what you mean by hitting a cap here.

 

1332 exp => 24.4848 dmg boost

1372 exp => 24.9951 // delta 0.5103%

 

1500 exp => 26.5605%

1540 exp => 27.0293% // delta 0.4687%

further along we have:

 

1800 => 29.8561%

1840 => 30.2590% // delta 0.4028%

 

at 1800 expertise, another 40 points gives us 80% as much return as it did at 1332 expertise. I'd hardly call that capped but perhaps I do not understand the theory crafting meaning of this word.

 

I just think he means 1332 is the most you can get out of current gear. At least thats what I am sitting at with full WH.

[Totaltrash]

The graphs really say it all:

 

Yes, expertise has a slight DR, but not enough to justify exchanging expertise for anything else - especially since expertise (unlike any other stat) affects BOTH your damage and your survivability.

 

At full augmented and modified WH, substituting PVE items gains me very little, hence I go with max expertise.

 

FYI:

1332 (no moddable off-hand) / 1372 (with moddable off-hand)

i.e. sniper vs. gunslinger (so much for mirror classes being mirrors)

[kamikrazy]

The graphs really say it all:

 

Yes, expertise has a slight DR, but not enough to justify exchanging expertise for anything else - especially since expertise (unlike any other stat) affects BOTH your damage and your survivability.

 

At full augmented and modified WH, substituting PVE items gains me very little, hence I go with max expertise.

 

FYI:

1332 (no moddable off-hand) / 1372 (with moddable off-hand)

i.e. sniper vs. gunslinger (so much for mirror classes being mirrors)

 

Yup, i'm at 1370 (muahahaha!)

Definitely do not understand how "BW" decided to mirror the classes. Loads of things just seem arbitrary.

[foxmob]

I just think he means 1332 is the most you can get out of current gear. At least thats what I am sitting at with full WH.

 

some wh mods/enh have more exp than others. I think it's a 5 exp swing for an extra side stat. I don't remember exactly. but there are minor decisions like that to be made (mind you, main stat and end also swing on said mods, so you *might* exchange hp for exp).

[Kawiki]

Hmm... Perhaps I remember it wrong then. I will check the expertise differences when I get home again.

 

I believe it was 1.2 that changed the expertise "curve". Prior it scaled very bad at a certain point.

[Kawiki]

You do gain DPS with Campaign/BH mods etc once your past 1000, however you do lose the healing/DR part of expertise so there is a trade off.

 

I always tell the white lie of 1100 as I think anyone with only 1000 expertise is very squishy and the added DPS is never really realized in actual game play.

 

Also you really can't go wrong with all PvP gear as the difference is really very slight.

[Akatoshia]

I think that those graphs outline stat data from before 1.2. Could be wrong though.

[islander]

I dont have the numbers on me now, but when I switched out 40 power for 40 expertise at 1250 starting expertise, the gain in DPS was only about 1.1%.

 

The hit from expertise, if you factor in both outgoing damage and incoming damage, was like 1.25% combined. Of course there was a slight hit to incoming healing too.

 

So yeah, at least at 1250 expertise, swapping 40 for 40 is a net loss. I forget what my force damage bonus was, like 830? My healing bonus is exactly 600 though, I know this. It went to 607 with the power crystal.

Edited August 9, 2012 by islander