Remove gear stats from PvP please.

[ZudetGambeous]

You know, everyone had to grind for they're gear right?

 

Actually all the "best" players exploited Ilum to get their gear...

[KiranK]

To the OP:

 

Give up. You will convince no one. MMO players do not understand nor do they wish to understand the concept of competitive player vs. player. They dont pvp for the enjoyment of pvp or for the spirit of competition. They do it for gear. If there was no gear, they wouldnt do it. They are not interested in competition. They are interested in making their characters as strong as possible.

 

What they and developers fail to realize is that gear progression pvp is only going to attract a certain amount of people. Even the mighty World of Warcraft could not sustain viable pvp through gear progression. Veteran players will always punish newbs because they have the advantage. They've been playing and grinding gear. Newbs get pummeled and have two choices: 1. Grind the gear also or 2. Stop playing.

 

What MMO PvPers dont realize is that, especially with the console market becoming more and more versatile, most players are going to take Option 2. The truth is right in front of you. Rated PvP que times are terrible. SWTOR PvP on a whole is frowned upon by the community. MMO subscriptions ACROSS THE BOARD are down. Only a handful of games are able to maintain thier playerbase without going F2P.

 

FPS shooters sell in the hundreds of millions. There are tens of millions of players. Because despite their flaws(cheaters, exploits, etc) the PvP is based on your performance, not how long you grinded gear.

 

But you arent going to convince the MMO community(at least not this one) of this. So stop trying. Play until you stop having fun. When its no longer fun, quit. Talk with your money. But you are wasting your time here.....

 

Sad, but true. I had a lot of hope for this game, but they just wanted to make a fail WoW clone in the end. Well, Bioware, mission accomplished. You've created a fail WoW clone that has folded into the F2P model in record time. You couldn't even give us one good year. Hell, I don't think you gave us even one good month. It was just fail cascade after fail cascade. PvP in your game is a joke. PvP gear grinds TURN OFF THE COMMUNITY. How can you not see that? Has the failure of WoW PvP not convinced you? Could you not even at least learn from WoW's mistakes? You had to repeat them yourself. Unfortunately for you, you don't have the massive subscriber base to fall back on to try to turn things around when you mess up. Between this game and Mass Effect 3, my faith in Bioware has been completely destroyed.

[Roiz]

To the OP:

 

Give up. You will convince no one. MMO players do not understand nor do they wish to understand the concept of competitive player vs. player. They dont pvp for the enjoyment of pvp or for the spirit of competition. They do it for gear. If there was no gear, they wouldnt do it. They are not interested in competition. They are interested in making their characters as strong as possible.

 

What they and developers fail to realize is that gear progression pvp is only going to attract a certain amount of people. Even the mighty World of Warcraft could not sustain viable pvp through gear progression. Veteran players will always punish newbs because they have the advantage. They've been playing and grinding gear. Newbs get pummeled and have two choices: 1. Grind the gear also or 2. Stop playing.

 

What MMO PvPers dont realize is that, especially with the console market becoming more and more versatile, most players are going to take Option 2. The truth is right in front of you. Rated PvP que times are terrible. SWTOR PvP on a whole is frowned upon by the community. MMO subscriptions ACROSS THE BOARD are down. Only a handful of games are able to maintain thier playerbase without going F2P.

 

FPS shooters sell in the hundreds of millions. There are tens of millions of players. Because despite their flaws(cheaters, exploits, etc) the PvP is based on your performance, not how long you grinded gear.

 

But you arent going to convince the MMO community(at least not this one) of this. So stop trying. Play until you stop having fun. When its no longer fun, quit. Talk with your money. But you are wasting your time here.....

 

I agree with you. I started playing this games because they promised bolster system where all level from 10 to 50 can participate in same warzones. The fail of this game was due to the fact that bolster didn't provide fair competition. They started segregation and divided players for two bracket 10-49 and 50. Later they introduced WH gear. Grind started.

 

I play for fun not for gear, I cannot play one class for 3 months non stop just to be competitive in PvP. The real PvP is there you can create toon and immediately join rated with your friends without spending months for leveling and gearing.

 

I will QQ here for few weeks, if nothing changes I will move to GW 2.

[kweassa]

To the OP:

 

Give up. You will convince no one. MMO players do not understand nor do they wish to understand the concept of competitive player vs. player. They dont pvp for the enjoyment of pvp or for the spirit of competition. They do it for gear. If there was no gear, they wouldnt do it. They are not interested in competition. They are interested in making their characters as strong as possible.

 

What they and developers fail to realize is that gear progression pvp is only going to attract a certain amount of people. Even the mighty World of Warcraft could not sustain viable pvp through gear progression. Veteran players will always punish newbs because they have the advantage. They've been playing and grinding gear. Newbs get pummeled and have two choices: 1. Grind the gear also or 2. Stop playing.

 

What MMO PvPers dont realize is that, especially with the console market becoming more and more versatile, most players are going to take Option 2. The truth is right in front of you. Rated PvP que times are terrible. SWTOR PvP on a whole is frowned upon by the community. MMO subscriptions ACROSS THE BOARD are down. Only a handful of games are able to maintain thier playerbase without going F2P.

 

FPS shooters sell in the hundreds of millions. There are tens of millions of players. Because despite their flaws(cheaters, exploits, etc) the PvP is based on your performance, not how long you grinded gear.

 

But you arent going to convince the MMO community(at least not this one) of this. So stop trying. Play until you stop having fun. When its no longer fun, quit. Talk with your money. But you are wasting your time here.....

 

A **** of bullcrap if I ever heard one.

 

The most competitive players are also the same people who most dilligently pursue ways to improve oneself -- whether be it gear, technique, (or in bad cases) exploits.

 

This 'fantasy' of 'pure skill' is simply a product of fragile egos from incompetitive people who need an excuse as to why they not only are terribad in gameplay, but also stay that way without getting better for a long, extended period of time.

 

Since obviously they are simply too lazy to neither practice PvP nor make efforts to better their chance in survival, they simply choose the easiest things to blame on. "Why you little... if only I had same gear, I'd woop yer arse" type of mentality is evident in all of these gear whines.

 

So go ahead, why not. Abolish gear. Chances are, these same whiners will be whining about something else. They need another excuse.

[Groncho]

Naked PVP!!!!!!

[Darth_Philar]

A **** of bullcrap if I ever heard one.

 

The most competitive players are also the same people who most dilligently pursue ways to improve oneself -- whether be it gear, technique, (or in bad cases) exploits.

 

This 'fantasy' of 'pure skill' is simply a product of fragile egos from incompetitive people who need an excuse as to why they not only are terribad in gameplay, but also stay that way without getting better for a long, extended period of time.

 

Since obviously they are simply too lazy to neither practice PvP nor make efforts to better their chance in survival, they simply choose the easiest things to blame on. "Why you little... if only I had same gear, I'd woop yer arse" type of mentality is evident in all of these gear whines.

 

So go ahead, why not. Abolish gear. Chances are, these same whiners will be whining about something else. They need another excuse.

 

That is a completely absurd argument.

 

Fact is, there are 3 completely separate styles of gameplay which I have already listed. You like CvC, which is fine. But you calling PvP fans names, or even stating that they don't exist is not fine. That's silly. Don't be silly.

 

You like what SWTOR offers. Some people don't. When it comes to personal preferences, "there is no accounting for taste".

[Roiz]

This 'fantasy' of 'pure skill' is simply a product of fragile egos from incompetitive people who need an excuse as to why they not only are terribad in gameplay, but also stay that way without getting better for a long, extended period of time.

 

I actually think opposite, players who cannot play on competitive level in fair environment have to get any kind of gear advantage just to be competitive. But they still do not do well, I've seen plenty WH full augmented players who cannot outdps some players in recruit gear with few BM pieces, but it's another story

[Capt_Beers]

You can have trainers, friends doctors or anything you like but when athletes goes into competition they have equal equipment. In football they have same boots, in box they have the same gloves. There are standards on sport equipment if you don't meet them you will never be qualified, if you deliberately violate standard on sport equipment you 'll be disqualified.

 

Let's say one boxer put a piece of metal inside his gloves to give advantage over other boxers, it's a typical example of cheating. So you support cheating, right?

 

Awesome logic fail.

 

No, they don't all have the same equipment. there are certain parameters equipment must not exceed but if you think that some third work country with 2 athletes in the Olympics has all the same equipment as the American, British or Chinese team you are very mistaken.

[Darth_Philar]

Awesome logic fail.

 

No, they don't all have the same equipment. there are certain parameters equipment must not exceed but if you think that some third work country with 2 athletes in the Olympics has all the same equipment as the American, British or Chinese team you are very mistaken.

 

The best game to use for showing the silliness of gear grinds is Chess.

 

When you and I sit down to play chess we both have the exact same number of each piece. As the playing field is completely even, it is my chess skills versus your chess skills. No outside factors are in play.

 

With gear grinds, MMO developers are saying "you've played chess longer than player B, therefore you get to start every game of chess with 2 Queens intead of 1 Queen. Player C has played longer than you have, therefore he gets to start every game of chess with 4 Queens". Eventually, you all reach the same level (playing with all Queens), but until that happens the people who have played longer will have a distinct advantage over those who have played for a shorter amount of time. Granted, the skill level of each player still plays a pretty significant impact (I don't care how many Queens you have, If you don't know the rules of chess I'm going to take you to school), but that impact is being marginalized by the starting inequality, especially when the guy who knows how to play chess also has the Queen advantage.

 

Gear grinds do not support competitve gameplay, they support grinding, which supports monthly subscriptions. Some players like grinding, and they therefore like gear grinds. They may also like competition. They just aren't going to get it in a grind-based MMO and that is why so many people are complaining about gear on the forums.

 

To analog this concept with the Olympics, a gear-grind system would be "You've participated in more Olympics than Nigeria has, therefore you only have to run 75 meters while Nigeria has to run 100 meters. Greece only has to run 1 meter since they've been here the longest."

Edited August 9, 2012 by Darth_Philar

[islander]

The best game to use for showing the silliness of gear grinds is Chess.

 

When you and I sit down to play chess we both have the exact same number of each piece. As the playing field is completely even, it is my chess skills versus your chess skills. No outside factors are in play.

 

With gear grinds, MMO developers are saying "you've played chess longer than player B, therefore you get to start every game of chess with 2 Queens intead of 1 Queen. Player C has played longer than you have, therefore he gets to start every game of chess with 4 Queens". Eventually, you all reach the same level (playing with all Queens), but until that happens the people who have played longer will have a distinct advantage over those who have played for a shorter amount of time. Granted, the skill level of each player still plays a pretty significant impact (I don't care how many Queens you have, If you don't know the rules of chess I'm going to take you to school), but that impact is being marginalized by the starting inequality, especially when the guy who knows how to play chess also has the Queen advantage.

 

Gear grinds do not support competitve gameplay, they support grinding, which supports monthly subscriptions. Some players like grinding, and they therefore like gear grinds. They may also like competition. They just aren't going to get it in a grind-based MMO and that is why so many people are complaining about gear on the forums.

 

To analog this concept with the Olympics, a gear-grind system would be "You've participated in more Olympics than Nigeria has, therefore you only have to run 75 meters while Nigeria has to run 100 meters. Greece only has to run 1 meter since they've been here the longest."

 

Great post. Bolded the TL;DRversion of it for others.

[Siorac]

I can propose a compromise: remove gear stats from ranked warzones, make them purely about skill. After all, they are supposed to be the real competitive environment.

 

Meanwhile, normal warzones would still have gear progression for those of us who like having something to work towards and aren't super-competitive.

[Roiz]

Awesome logic fail.

 

No, they don't all have the same equipment. there are certain parameters equipment must not exceed but if you think that some third work country with 2 athletes in the Olympics has all the same equipment as the American, British or Chinese team you are very mistaken.

 

Of course they have different equipment, boxers of US team hide in their gloves medals from previous games the more medals they earn on previous games the heavy the gloves are. The jumpers of China team use propellers, the stronger the engine the higher they fly.

[UGLYMRJ]

All arguments on this are invalid.

 

Don't like it... don't play it. There are plenty of games that may suit your play style more.

 

Again, it's like walking into Taco Bell and demanding a Big Mac.

[soldenal]

I have been advocating reducing the WH gear ranked comm price by 1/3 and we are at the right spot.

 

If one person do all PvP normal WZs for daily and weekly, he/she gets about 2000 RWZ commendations a week. The more expensive pieces should be reduced to this price range. Ideally it shouldn't take 2 months to gear up by doing the PvP dailies and weeklies.

[joeypesci]

To the OP:

 

Give up. You will convince no one. MMO players do not understand nor do they wish to understand the concept of competitive player vs. player. They dont pvp for the enjoyment of pvp or for the spirit of competition. They do it for gear. If there was no gear, they wouldnt do it. They are not interested in competition. They are interested in making their characters as strong as possible.

 

What they and developers fail to realize is that gear progression pvp is only going to attract a certain amount of people. Even the mighty World of Warcraft could not sustain viable pvp through gear progression. Veteran players will always punish newbs because they have the advantage. They've been playing and grinding gear. Newbs get pummeled and have two choices: 1. Grind the gear also or 2. Stop playing.

 

What MMO PvPers dont realize is that, especially with the console market becoming more and more versatile, most players are going to take Option 2. The truth is right in front of you. Rated PvP que times are terrible. SWTOR PvP on a whole is frowned upon by the community. MMO subscriptions ACROSS THE BOARD are down. Only a handful of games are able to maintain thier playerbase without going F2P.

 

FPS shooters sell in the hundreds of millions. There are tens of millions of players. Because despite their flaws(cheaters, exploits, etc) the PvP is based on your performance, not how long you grinded gear.

 

But you arent going to convince the MMO community(at least not this one) of this. So stop trying. Play until you stop having fun. When its no longer fun, quit. Talk with your money. But you are wasting your time here.....

 

Agreed. I have 2 50s and stopped playing them and carried on with my Bounty Hunter instead. Had loads of fun in PvP from 10-49. I banked enough comms to get me one War Hero piece and one Battlemaster piece. Rest is Recruit gear. I get rolled over now, so it's become boring. The fully war hero and modded geared players appear to spot I'm in mainly recruit gear and focus fire me. So its become boring. I use my level 50s just to collect resources now (loads of fun? Not really) and the other toons for 10-49 PvP.

[Brool]

All arguments on this are invalid.

 

Don't like it... don't play it. There are plenty of games that may suit your play style more.

 

Again, it's like walking into Taco Bell and demanding a Big Mac.

 

/thread

[Philastra]

OP if you havent noticed this isnt the olympics....

[Nerdcommando]

Having PVP gear is a problem. Gear is irrelevant in the leveling pvp bracket and its extremely fun. I can jump in and just do it and be competitive.

 

However on my 50 its a different matter. I have to grind out so many commendations and approxiametly 1.7 mil for augments - its painful. I am sure that once you get up there its fun again, kinda. Personally I would rather have outcomes which rely on player choices over gear (= # of hours spent gearing).

 

So my fix is to not participate in 50 pvp. I play a few different toons, get to enjoy the variety of playstyles. When they hit cap, I guess I will just delete and restart.

 

Dev's my solution is this, either

 

A) Redesign PVP statistics so that someone in recruit gear has a slight disadvantage to someone in War Hero.

 

or

 

B) Bracket off 50 PVP in terms of expertise or Gear level. Some way of divvying up the population of lvl 50 pvp'ers so that Everyone is competitive.

 

My final point to the devs - if you think that statistically its insignifigant your crazy - I dont care what your metrics say.

[Evil_Santa]

a) I would stop pvp'ing if everything was the same. I dont want my sorc to have the same healing/dmg/health as a tank. It doesnt make sense to me.

 

b) Stop making broad generalizations including people that dont feel the same way as you. You may leave for gw2, but I wont and a lot of people I know and pvp with wont.

 

c) Not every game is made for every gamer. Sounds like this game isnt made for you. I am sure you know where the gw2 forums are Im sure it would be more beneficial to all of us if you headed that way and started getting to know that community.

 

d) I dont want to pvp in sub 50 bracket where everyone is automatically scaled to level 50. Then it wouldn't be sub 50 pvp.

 

Face it. Everyone is welcome to an opinion, and I encourage that. I do frown apon people like yourself stating things as fact like everyone feels that way when it is far far far far far from the truth. I do not agree with/nor support a single idea in you're post.

 

Thank you and have a good day.

 

edit - If you think everything is "fair" in the olympics then you obviously are not watching the whole thing. You think Team USA basketball men or womens is "fair" and "balanced" when playing against other teams from other countries?

 

edit 2 - e-sports. That would be fps games, not mmo games with pvp in them. Go play CoD or Halo for that.

 

HAHAHA Oh wow. you think that e-sports are just fps games? No wonder you like a gear imbalance, you're the dude with 2 kills and 80 deaths in a fps game.

[Larzi]

ROFL i thought the OP's opening line was hilarious, something about seeing the olympics and comparing the "fairness" of the olymics to PvP in SWTOR.

 

 

Ummmmmm, the olyimpics are just as fair as the pvp in SWOTR.

 

I train more than you do so i get more medals, just like the olympics.

 

Im hitting the gym (computer) 4-6 hours a day, you play 1-2 every other day and then come here to complain about how my training has made the game unfair.

 

They should make SWTOR an olympic sport, i breathe this ****! Fyi the only time im posting on the website is when im at work! free time= game time

[Darth_Philar]

ROFL i thought the OP's opening line was hilarious, something about seeing the olympics and comparing the "fairness" of the olymics to PvP in SWTOR.

 

 

Ummmmmm, the olyimpics are just as fair as the pvp in SWOTR.

 

I train more than you do so i get more medals, just like the olympics.

 

Im hitting the gym (computer) 4-6 hours a day, you play 1-2 every other day and then come here to complain about how my training has made the game unfair.

 

They should make SWTOR an olympic sport, i breathe this ****! Fyi the only time im posting on the website is when im at work! free time= game time

 

The Olympics don't give handicaps based on time spent and are therefore not like SWTOR.

 

If the Olympics were like this game, then Greece would only need to run 1 Meter in the 100 Meter Sprint since they've been in the Olympics the longest. Since Jamaica hasn't been in the Olympics as long, Usain Bolt still has to run the full 100 meters.

 

You see, gear progression is supposed to simulate skill increase in the character in PvE. In PvP however you actually have player skill increase and therefore do not need to simulate character skill. By adding gear progression to PvP, you give an unnecessary benefit to players based on time spent. This concept exists solely to reward you for paying your monthly subscription, not to present any kind of fair play or competitive environment.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Darth_Philar

[Larzi]

I was referring to the amount of time you spend playing is like training.

 

The more you train the better you will be, jeez louise! SOME people

[Ravashakk]

Anyone else notice the similarity between this argument and communism vs capitalism?