Orange Modable items and Loot Rolls

[Lance]

Again, NOBODY is debating whether you can "need" for cosmetic items... /sigh

 

In this example, the player is cleared for the armor type, i.e. heavy, med, light. The armor rating is an upgrade, and the defense stat is an upgrade. Its only that the loot has endurance and power instead of endurance and aim for example.

 

This loot in an upgrade in nearly everyway NOT COSMETIC. And in the ways that its not, its easily modded.

 

Friend 1: I have some cookie-dough ice cream if anyone wants it.

 

Friend 2: Oh man I love me some cookie-dough ice cream, awesome!

 

You: Well, I don't like cookie-dough, but I can pull that out and just enjoy the ice cream, which I really like.

 

Friend 1: I only have enough for one person.

 

You: I still want it because I like ice cream.

 

Is this how you would conduct yourself or would you tell Friend 2 to go for it since he happens to love cookie-dough ice cream and this is in fact, cookie-dough ice cream?

[Matty-Wan]

Friend 1: I have some cookie-dough ice cream if anyone wants it.

 

Friend 2: Oh man I love me some cookie-dough ice cream, awesome!

 

You: Well, I don't like cookie-dough, but I can pull that out and just enjoy the ice cream, which I really like.

 

Friend 1: I only have enough for one person.

 

You: I still want it because I like ice cream.

 

Is this how you would conduct yourself or would you tell Friend 2 to go for it since he happens to love cookie-dough ice cream and this is in fact, cookie-dough ice cream?

 

Lance, bro... Analogies.... are not for you.

[Spraks]

Following some of the logic presented on this topic it would NOT be cool for the Sith Warrior to "Need" on an orange item if he was going to change out 1 mod. Maybe it was "for him" but he has a better mod sitting in his stash to make it even better.

 

That is no different than the BH Needing on the same piece for the same reason. With modable gear it can be a Needed upgrade for multiple players.

 

To get a true evaluation would require an analysis about the amount of increase for each player... does a +10 in the 2 specs the BH is going to keep get trumped by a +1 in all 3 for the Sith Warrior. Or even more complex would be a combination of +/-.

 

That is obviously a ridiculous expectation and IMO can be simply boiled down to:

Plan on using it = Need

Plan on selling it or giving away = Greed

 

I'm sure there will be flaming and blacklist threats but maybe the expectations will evolve to reflect this new commonality inherent in the modable gear.

[HerrAwesome]

My opinion exactly. I have a feeling this will be shared by all in time. I wonder though if the folks who are stuck in "it dosent have your stats!" may take some time to come around.

 

A Bounty hunter rolled on a Sith Juggernaut orange dress.

 

I was pissed. I'm tired of looking like an imperial officer.

[Lance]

Lance, bro... Analogies.... are not for you.

 

If you're greedy, just admit it. You're taking gear specifically designed for someone else and creating reasons why it's acceptable. The ability to change out mods is secondary to what's included.

[VicSkimmr]

That is obviously a ridiculous expectation and IMO can be simply boiled down to:

Plan on using it = Need

Plan on selling it or giving away = Greed

 

Exactly. It's not like armor is difficult to find in this game anyway. To me, if there's an orange piece that drops and I love it, I don't give a crap about the stats if I'm planning on using it for a long time. How is my wanting to use it for it's moddable quality less important than someone who intends to use it for the stats and then dump it 2 levels later?

 

Moddable gear is meant to be our appearance tab. The only reason to use it is primarily for cosmetics.

[Matty-Wan]

If you're greedy, just admit it. You're taking gear specifically designed for someone else and creating reasons why it's acceptable. The ability to change out mods is secondary to what's included.

 

This is where you are getting caught up in your bad thinking. Modable gear isn't "designed" for someone else. A BH style boot could drop with a sick armor rating and nasty defense bonus and have 2 randomly generated stats that neither a BH or Sith warrior could use. It can be worn by either and would be an upgrade to both because of the 2 of 3 stats it has that do work.

 

PLEASE stop thinking about this as if it is a one track, one class, hard stated loot item.

Edited December 19, 2011 by Matty-Wan

[Cortechs]

Yeah sure I mean, Bioware made that gear to drop on that mob and put in the exact mods needed by a certain class but you should still be able to take it because it looks good on you. I mean youre not 100% satisfied by what you have, so obviously thats reason enough to go and take a dump on someone else so that YOU can have full , 100% satisfaction. It is, after all, all about YOUR satisfaction. Who really gives a **** about other people that arent you.

 

/sigh ... Am I the only person here that thinks its people with this kind of attitude towards anyone who isnt them, which are at the root of the worlds problems?

 

So, let's see. I'm using modifiable gear, so I'm not rolling on regular gear, which you are. And you're also saying I'm not allowed to roll on orange gear. So I guess I just don't get ANY gear?

 

Orange gear was put into the game specifically for the looks, so you COULD take the mods out and put others in. The regular gear is there for you to play your WoW games with.

 

And really, if you aren't using modifiable gear, and thus having put in the effort to keep your mods and such up-to-date, why are you even rolling on mod gear anyway? Some of us chose our crafting class, and have kept it up-to-date, specifically so we COULD take advantage of the mod system. Now you want to ensure the only chance we have of getting orange gear is to hope someone puts one on the AH at an absurdly inflated price (you know, one of YOU guys who really needed it for the "stats" ).

 

And for your information, the only thing I have rolled need on thus far is a pair of gloves, though I've only done three flashpoints. Mostly to avoid the people who feel like they deserve every piece of gear that drops, such as yourself.

Edited December 19, 2011 by Cortechs

[Lokai]

I do not come from WoW so I have only read about your views on "need and greed". From what I can tell the majority feel that it is absolutly wrong to need for an item if it doesn't have your stats. With that said...

 

I am a BH and a super cool looking piece of orange heavy armor drops. Turns out it has great armor too but it doesn't have my stats in it. However, all I need do to make it my stats is open it up and pop in the right mod.

 

I am of the belief that any heavy armor that drops which is orange is a "need" for me as a BH since I can make the stats as I wish. I just am wondering what others think.

 

Thanks

 

i made a huge post about this on day 1...and was basically laughed at and ridiculed for warning folks that modable gear was pretty much going to be fair game no matter what stats it has in it or what weapon it is.

 

my own example was seeing the modable double bladed lightsaber in BT and winning that roll i realized i could pull mods out for my saber... so yes i can see myself rolling on those sabers... just for the mods or rolling on some armor just for the looks

 

modable gear is pretty much fair game to anyone can use it.

[universeman]

What you guys are discussing here is etiquette. That doesn't exist in game

 

Ran Esseles over the weekend and some guy was racing through it (with sprint) and clicking NEED for every piece of equipment Made me so mad for the players who were doing this for the first time and were lower level. I ended up turning my sprint off to stick with the lowbies and let the #$^@^ die once (accidentally, of course)

[Baizak]

This is where you are getting caught up in your bad thinking. Modable gear isn't "designed" for someone else. A BH style boot could drop with a sick armor rating and nasty defense bonus and have 2 randomly generated stats that neither a BH or Sith warrior could use. It can be worn by either and would be an upgrade because of the 2 of 3 stats it has that do work.

 

PLEASE stop thinking about this as if it is a one track, one class, hard stated loot item.

 

Primary Stats for each class:

Aim gives 0.2 ranged damage

Strength gives 0.2 melee damage

Cunning gives 0.2 tech damage

Will power gives 0.2 force damage

 

If you are rolling on an item with one of these stats and that stat does not benefit your class, but it benefits somebody else you are grouped with, modable or not then you are a ninja. You are depriving somebody of an upgrade, to satisfy your fashion sense. There is no justifying that sort of behavior.

Edited December 19, 2011 by Baizak

[Matty-Wan]

How can you quote me and still think I made an argument for a "cosmetic need"? please go back and read. Reading comprehension is not your friend. Edited December 19, 2011 by Matty-Wan

[borghe]

this is really the inherent problem with the mod system as it exists... you really ARE rolling on the mods in a moddable item.. if you get a piece of heavy armor with a ton of end and cun, why shouldn't a smuggler be able to roll on it? he doesn't care about the armor, but the blue and purple mods in there are a massive upgrade in his current mods.

 

IMHO BW should just fix it by NOT pre-populating orange items with mods. wow has socketed items, these are basically socketed items. BW needs to not reinvent the wheel here and just add lower base stats to orange items, and then make those need-able by the classes they are suited for and their value comes from that they can be modded.

 

fwiw, I disagree with the original OP based on all of this alone. You are in essence rolling on the mods.. the cosmetic aesthetic of the actual armor is secondary to the stats it boosts. allowing the BH to roll on end/cun gear because of the looks essentially is no different than smugglers rolling on light armor because it has cun/end mods on it. that they can extract and use. both are equally dickish, but equally valid with the way BW has implemented the mods system.

 

Again, NOBODY is debating whether you can "need" for cosmetic items... /sigh

 

In this example, the player is cleared for the armor type, i.e. heavy, med, light. The armor rating is an upgrade, and the defense stat is an upgrade. Its only that the loot has endurance and power instead of endurance and aim for example.

 

This loot in an upgrade in nearly everyway NOT COSMETIC. And in the ways that its not, its easily modded.

 

in most (all?) cases mods and such will have two stats on them... one of them almost always being endurance... to say the item already has mods on it for endurance AND armor is like saying a piece in WoW already has armor and sta... of course, almost every piece in wow has armor and sta... it's that third stat and armor type that determines what class it's for.

 

like I said, BW brought a lot of this on themselves by basically pre-populating gems/mods, removing all base stats from the items, and then allowing everyone to roll on them based on armor/weapon type... I get that they didn't want to openly ape wow... but in this case it opens up cases like this, where it's possible for everyone to out-need a jedi tank on a light armor piece because of its mods or aesthetics.

Edited December 19, 2011 by borghe

[esnoble]

If it were my group, I would be fine with him rolling need on it if he told us why he was rolling need. After all, mods are cheap and I replace them at the end of each planet anyway.

[VicSkimmr]

fwiw, I disagree with the original OP based on all of this alone. You are in essence rolling on the mods.. the cosmetic aesthetic of the actual armor is secondary to the stats it boosts. allowing the BH to roll on end/cun gear because of the looks essentially is no different than smugglers rolling on light armor because it has cun/end mods on it. that they can extract and use. both are equally dickish, but equally valid with the way BW has implemented the mods system.

 

why should the stats be more important than the cosmetics on it? If someone intends to take it, remove the mods and dump the item, how is that any different than me wanting it so that I can dump the mods and keep the armor? the answer is they're both equally important, which makes moddable gear fair game for anyone who wants it.

[Jest]

So, let's see. I'm using modifiable gear, so I'm not rolling on regular gear, which you are. And you're also saying I'm not allowed to roll on orange gear. So I guess I just don't get ANY gear?

 

You're choosing not to roll on "regular" gear. He's choosing to roll on gear that's an upgrade. He's not limiting you, you are.

 

Orange gear was put into the game specifically for the looks, so you COULD take the mods out and put others in. The regular gear is there for you to play your WoW games with.

 

Orange gear was made that way to bring more depth and meaning to the crafting system as well as offer cosmetic options. However, that doesn't change the fact that if the gear is an upgrade for someone without being altered, their need is greater than yours. That is the essence of Need vs. Greed.

 

And really, if you aren't using modifiable gear, and thus having put in the effort to keep your mods and such up-to-date, why are you even rolling on mod gear anyway? Some of us chose our crafting class, and have kept it up-to-date, specifically so we COULD take advantage of the mod system. Now you want to ensure the only chance we have of getting orange gear is to hope someone puts one on the AH at an absurdly inflated price.

 

They ARE using Modifiable Gear, which is why they're upset you're rolling on Gear with their stats on it already. And no they're not forcing you to have to go to the AH. If you want a specific piece of gear and it drops, but it suits someone else moreso, then you run the Flashpoint/OP again until you get it. That is the proper etiquette.

 

And for your information, the only thing I have rolled need on thus far is a pair of gloves, though I've only done three flashpoints. Mostly to avoid the people who feel like they deserve every piece of gear that drops, such as yourself.

 

If the gear is an upgrade and it has their stats, they have the right to Need it. If the gear doesn't have your stats, it's NOT an upgrade until you alter it, putting you in the Greed category. It's a very basic concept. Some groups you'll get, the person whose class the gear is intended for won't want it and you'll get it. Some groups they will want it and you won't. That's how running PUGs works.

 

You'll quickly find that in a game with no Cross-Server queues, if you don't abide by proper loot etiquette, you can and will get blackballed on the server. If you want the easiest time getting what you want when you want it, join a Guild and run Flashpoints and Ops with them instead of PUGs. It's that simple.

[Matty-Wan]

this is really the inherent problem with the mod system as it exists... you really ARE rolling on the mods in a moddable item.. if you get a piece of heavy armor with a ton of end and cun, why shouldn't a smuggler be able to roll on it? he doesn't care about the armor, but the blue and purple mods in there are a massive upgrade in his current mods.

 

IMHO BW should just fix it by NOT pre-populating orange items with mods. wow has socketed items, these are basically socketed items. BW needs to not reinvent the wheel here and just add lower base stats to orange items, and then make those need-able by the classes they are suited for and their value comes from that they can be modded.

 

fwiw, I disagree with the original OP based on all of this alone. You are in essence rolling on the mods.. the cosmetic aesthetic of the actual armor is secondary to the stats it boosts. allowing the BH to roll on end/cun gear because of the looks essentially is no different than smugglers rolling on light armor because it has cun/end mods on it. that they can extract and use. both are equally dickish, but equally valid with the way BW has implemented the mods system.

 

I like the way you think but i disagree on two points.

 

First, BW should not have to dumb down the system because the WoW players cant get used to it and its gets them all worked up.

 

Second, in my OP example 2 of the 3 stats were a major upgrade for me. In fact, the "shell" helmet was not cosmetically desirable. The armor rating on the other hand...

[borghe]

why should the stats be more important than the cosmetics on it? If someone intends to take it, remove the mods and dump the item, how is that any different than me wanting it so that I can dump the mods and keep the armor? the answer is they're both equally important, which makes moddable gear fair game for anyone who wants it.

 

my argument was in fact that they were/are both equally STUPID, but alas it's a situation that exists because of how bioware basically implemented their gemming system.

[Xfraze]

Whelp, on master loot rolling, they let you view characters in your part from each class. From there, the master looter can decide who to give the item to based on stats. Alternatively, they can randomly give the item to any of the players in the group.

 

The problem with master looter though is that while you can randomly give the item to anyone in the group or op, you can't randomly give the item to a certain class or group of classes.

 

This wouldn't be an issue if there was a /roll command in the game or something similar. I had to alt+tab out of the game and run a RNG for my pug op in order to determine who got what loot.

 

To make matters worse, sense only I could see the results, it possibly damaged my reputation on my server since as far as everyone knows, I could have just favored a particular person.

 

TL;DR

Please add /roll into the game.

[Jest]

why should the stats be more important than the cosmetics on it? If someone intends to take it, remove the mods and dump the item, how is that any different than me wanting it so that I can dump the mods and keep the armor? the answer is they're both equally important, which makes moddable gear fair game for anyone who wants it.

 

You're assuming that they're dumping the Orange... which isn't a likely assumption to make. If they need the upgrade in stats, it's much more likely they'll just wear the item. Of course their can be exceptions to this, however it's unlikely.

 

People into looks are more likely to roll with lower stats to achieve a look.

 

People into stats are more likely to wear whatever it is, just to get the stat boost.

 

Some people are into both, however standard loot etiquette is the piece goes to whichever class benefits most from the stats on the gear. If two people benefit equally, they both Need.

 

Edit:

Also.. Stats literally affect whether you live or die in playing the game. The argument of Looks being Equal to Stats makes absolutely no sense unless you're playing a game where you ONLY RP and never actually have to fight against anything.

Edited December 19, 2011 by Jest

[borghe]

I like the way you think but i disagree on two points.

 

First, BW should not have to dumb down the system because the WoW players cant get used to it and its gets them all worked up.

 

Second, in my OP example 2 of the 3 stats were a major upgrade for me. In fact, the "shell" helmet was not cosmetically desirable. The armor rating on the other hand...

 

first, I don't agree that it's dumbing it down. on the contrary, it implements it in a way that causes less needless ambiguity and makes the need/greed system much more straight forward.

 

second, those "two out of three stats" are going to be on every item in that class (i.e. armor, blaster, blaster rifle, etc). but beyond that, each of the mods are typically going to have both attribute stats on it as well (endurance and other [other_stat]). so every piece in this line will have endurance, but to regem the cunning to aim on it, you basically have to remove all of the cunning AND endurance, and repopulate it with aim AND endurance.

[Carolius]

A Bounty hunter rolled on a Sith Juggernaut orange dress.

 

I was pissed. I'm tired of looking like an imperial officer.

 

That... would be awesome. I'd love to seem my BH dressed as a sith.

[Baizak]

How can you quote me and still think I made an argument for a "cosmetic need"? please go back and read. Reading comprehension is not your friend.

 

My comprehension and I are getting along splendidly thanks.

 

You started this thread by saying you wanted the item because it is "heavy armor and super cool looking, but it does not have my stats."(paraphrasing here, because I am to lazy to go back and quote your first)

 

Every one of your posts following has been you trying to justify your logic behind it. I quoted your most recent post so you would know I was talking directly to you. Not for the context of your most recent statement. Sorry if i committed a forum faux pas.

[Guaritorr]

If there's a juggernaught in there and the stats match up better for him then I'd say let him have it... assuming the chestpiece as a whole is an upgrade for both of you, it's likely more of an upgrade for him since it has 3 better mods in it, where as yours will only have 2 better mods and one mod from either your old chest, or a vendor, etc.

 

Basically, whoever the item's stats match gets more use out of the item, and should have priority on it... if they don't want it, then take it over the people just greeding for cash.

 

Thats my opinion anyways.

[Matty-Wan]

first, I don't agree that it's dumbing it down. on the contrary, it implements it in a way that causes less needless ambiguity and makes the need/greed system much more straight forward.

 

 

As the Orange Item stands now It is a new loot system mechanic that is more far diverse than a hard stated loot. It has 5 tiers of user interest. 1) armor restriction 2) cosmetics 3) Armor Rating 4) stat bonus 5) defense bonus.

 

By definition, if you were to remove the mods you would make this a far less complex loot drop and thus "dumb it down".

 

In fact this new mechanic is really very interesting and I am not the least bit afraid of it. Further more, to every one claiming it is greedy to roll on a Orange Mod item if it doesn't have your stat I would say that YOU are the greedy ones! Why?

 

You liked it better when loot rolls were restricted to just your class because your odds of winning a roll are better with less competition. Now with 5 different attractions on an item, you have more competition and thus less chance to win. This is what you really hate you greedy little rats.

 

So you try to stop it by claiming blacklist and what ever other weird nonsense your up to. Mark the time, I have taken your measure!

Edited December 19, 2011 by Matty-Wan