This really is Stunwars - Adjust is needed to keep the game fun

[Steele_dk]

This is a discussion about the PVP resolve system in SWTOR and how it acts with the player stuns giving to the classes through out the game.

 

Now, first of all, i have played this game since launch and i have played alot pvp. I already noticed from start that every class having a stun seemed a bit much but i put my faith in that bioware had worked in a system then like Diminishing returns so that you could not chain stun someone to the point of crazyness and total loss of control on the receiving end.

 

8 months after, my faith is not so much, and the frustration about the resolve system has gotten to me many times.

 

However, it was not until i played another game where the pvp was much better balanced and showed me that without the riduculars amount of time you sit in a stun/cc/mez, you were actually having fun even when you got killed.

 

Before anyone starts with the usually, you cant compare SWTOR to anygame!, no i cant, but can i compare the pvp stun system in two games? Yes i can.

 

In this new game i tried, only a handfull of classes has a stun and the max duration of this is 3 seconds. The usually stun time in this game is 2 second.

Does this new game have DR or resolve system? No. Does it need it? No because the stuns are so short and only a few classes has them that you do not feel any chain stun is build up either.

 

So i come back to swtor after a day in the new game and the experience to say was just midly said horrible.

 

There is so many times in current swtor pvp, where you stand in a stun/cc/mez and cant do nothing because your breaker is on a cooldown or your resolve doesnt help you.

 

This brings me to my point, resolve needs to be adjusted or all stuns in the game needs to be toned down a bit on duration. The resolve system is flawed on many points compared to the DR system. Not only does it allow chain stunning up to multiple times before it hits resolve top, but it also does not dimishing in order of effect when it gets full, meaning that when you have almost full resolve, you can still be cced for those extra 8 seconds full duration.

 

What is the fun of spending half of your alive time in a stun in a fight or before you die not being able to have clicked even just 1 ability? (We are already seing this happening with Sages atm)

 

TL;DR: Too many and too long stuns in swtor, resolve or stuns needs to be adjusted.

[Narblazu]

What is even more horrible is AOE stuns... ffs remove them all.

[babykahna]

i've felt the frustration especially as a healer but what do you hope to achieve in this thread? I've given up hope on Bioware reading forums for customer feedback. I've seen em screw things up over and over and over. I've unsubbed and when my time runs out I won't even be back in F2P. If Bioware wants to kill itself by my guest. But if you're hoping for changes to make pvp fair and balanced again, you're better off looking for a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.

[Daiyukie]

QQ Resolve QQ

 

L2P, snares and all that jazz.

[Steele_dk]

i've felt the frustration especially as a healer but what do you hope to achieve in this thread? I've given up hope on Bioware reading forums for customer feedback. I've seen em screw things up over and over and over. I've unsubbed and when my time runs out I won't even be back in F2P. If Bioware wants to kill itself by my guest. But if you're hoping for changes to make pvp fair and balanced again, you're better off looking for a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.

 

Well, i guess i hope as many others do to raise my concerns to biowares attention.

 

I know its a longshot but that doesnt mean i shouldnt try.

 

I think there is many of us that feels the same way about resolve and stuns/cc/mez in the game.

[johnyangelo]

As I was saying many times.

 

I have no problem with how resolve works now and BW said mayn times, that it works as intended.

[mulzii]

blame WoW really. The whole mentality of 'keep the target stationary in front of you so you can press buttons' was really popularized by Wow. heaven forbid devs code skills to promote good movement and strategy other than 'keep x in front of me, can i cannot press buttons and move at same time'...

[Wainamoinen]

I don't really have a problem with the stuns. I feel some want to be able to keep acting never mind what the opposition does. That's not always possible in this game and I'm fine with that. Edited August 1, 2012 by Wainamoinen

[Darth_Philar]

Resolve and CC mechanics are fine.

 

The most amount of stuns you can suffer in a row (chain) is 2 for a total of 8 seconds, however that requires at least 2 enemies to be attacking you meaning you are going to die anyway so it isn't the stun's fault, it is your fault for walking into an unwinnable situation.

 

This is not Halo, you are not Master Chief, and we are not a horde of EZ mode grunts for you to kill by looking at us. PvP in this game is designed around teamwork and objectives. Your death after suffering 2 stuns is a result of you or your team failing to engage in teamwork while the enemy team succeeds with their teamwork. You simply were outplayed, now you need to determine if it was because:

1. The other guys were better than you.

2. Your team failed you.

3. You failed your team.

[Steele_dk]

Resolve and CC mechanics are fine.

 

The most amount of stuns you can suffer in a row (chain) is 2 for a total of 8 seconds,

 

Stuns are only 4 seconds, but you are leaving out that some mez's last 6 seconds and cc last 8 seconds. The total duration of incapication now amounts to far more than 8s. And even 8s seconds while someone is dpsing you is a long time in this game with the current TTK.

 

however that requires at least 2 enemies to be attacking you meaning you are going to die anyway so it isn't the stun's fault, it is your fault for walking into an unwinnable situation.[/Quote]

 

You say it is the players own fault for walking into a unwinnable situation.

This is first of all wasnt the point of my thread, my point was that stuns/mez and cc last far too long in this game and we have a broken system that doesnt take action on chain stuns/mez and cc.

 

If 3 ppl go into a skirmish vs 3 other ppl, a winnable situation by your example, then what stops the 3 persons from using all their stuns/cc/mez on 1 person? This is where the system is flawed because it doesnt factor this scenario in.

 

 

1. The other guys were better than you.

2. Your team failed you.

3. You failed your team.

 

1. I still fail to see how i can be better at keeping my resolve full to prevent chain stuns. My resolve bar is in my enemies hands.

2. I dunno how they could help me out of my chain stun, and even more so, how they could prevent me from being chain stunned. You could stun them ofc, but thats just the same scenario, instead its chain stun on the other side. And thats also my point of my thread, Stunwars.

3. Same as 2, only active thing i can do is to interupt cc. (minus a few specs/classes with instant cc)

 

And i played wow aswell, and even though you can name a ton of other stuff that was wrong in wow pvp, you still cant rule out that the DR worked in that game. Just think of a Rogue without DR in this game, oh wait

 

 

I still believe that the current duration of stuns/cc and mez should be reduced a bit, as nobody is having fun being out of game control this long. Or resolve should be adjusted abit. How i am not to say but it is so much clearer when you have tried another game where there isnt that many stuns in the game.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Steele_dk

[Daikeru]

I would like to know which game you're comparing this to. Mainly because in certain games burst is much more massive relative to SWTOR.

[Darth_Philar]

Stuns are only 4 seconds, but you are leaving out that some mez's last 6 seconds and cc last 8 seconds. The total duration of incapication now amounts to far more than 8s. And even 8s seconds while someone is dpsing you is a long time in this game with the current TTK.

 

You say it is the players own fault for walking into a unwinnable situation.

This is first of all wasnt the point of my thread, my point was that stuns/mez and cc last far too long in this game and we have a broken system that doesnt take action on chain stuns/mez and cc.

 

If 3 ppl go into a skirmish vs 3 other ppl, a winnable situation by your example, then what stops the 3 persons from using all their stuns/cc/mez on 1 person? This is where the system is flawed because it doesnt factor this scenario in.

 

1. I still fail to see how i can be better at keeping my resolve full to prevent chain stuns. My resolve bar is in my enemies hands.

2. I dunno how they could help me out of my chain stun, and even more so, how they could prevent me from being chain stunned. You could stun them ofc, but thats just the same scenario, instead its chain stun on the other side. And thats also my point of my thread, Stunwars.

3. Same as 2, only active thing i can do is to interupt cc. (minus a few specs/classes with instant cc)

 

And i played wow aswell, and even though you can name a ton of other stuff that was wrong in wow pvp, you still cant rule out that the DR worked in that game. Just think of a Rogue without DR in this game, oh wait

 

I still believe that the current duration of stuns/cc and mez should be reduced a bit, as nobody is having fun being out of game control this long. Or resolve should be adjusted abit. How i am not to say but it is so much clearer when you have tried another game where there isnt that many stuns in the game.

 

First:

Stuns are 4 seconds, except for Force Choke which is 3.

Mezzes are all 8 seconds.

There are some blinds/stuns/mezzes that are shorter, but they are all talented extra effects.

Mezzes are not bad considering any damage will break it and it can be cleansed by your healer.

 

Second:

8 Seconds of stun assumes your Breaker is on CD. If your Breaker is available, you are only stunned for 4 + reaction time. Regardless, if you are in an even matchup, your team's job while you are stunned is to pull/stun the train in order to prevent you from dying. Once again, the stun length is not the issue, it is your team's lack of teamwork.

 

Third:

You WANT the enemy team to burn all of their CC on you. You will gain immunity on your second CC meaning that the 3rd and subsequent ones are wasted. Now your team has the advantage of having more potential CC uptime since you haven't whitebarred your enemy but they have whitebarred you.

 

Fourth:

Maximum amount of potential time spent in consecutive CC in SWTOR: 16 seconds (2 mezzes)

Maximum amount of potential time spent in consecutive CC in WoW: Infinite (Rogue + Mage)

WoW's DR system is one of the worst on the market as there is no way to tell what you are immune to, plus the fact that each type of CC has its own table means that it is very easy to chain CCs and permanently lock down an enemy player (staggering your CC so that the DR refreshes in time for the next cycle).

[Daikeru]

First:

Stuns are 4 seconds, except for Force Choke which is 3.

Mezzes are all 8 seconds.

There are some blinds/stuns/mezzes that are shorter, but they are all talented extra effects.

Mezzes are not bad considering any damage will break it and it can be cleansed by your healer.

 

Second:

8 Seconds of stun assumes your Breaker is on CD. If your Breaker is available, you are only stunned for 4 + reaction time. Regardless, if you are in an even matchup, your team's job while you are stunned is to pull/stun the train in order to prevent you from dying. Once again, the stun length is not the issue, it is your team's lack of teamwork.

 

Third:

You WANT the enemy team to burn all of their CC on you. You will gain immunity on your second CC meaning that the 3rd and subsequent ones are wasted. Now your team has the advantage of having more potential CC uptime since you haven't whitebarred your enemy but they have whitebarred you.

 

Fourth:

Maximum amount of potential time spent in consecutive CC in SWTOR: 16 seconds (2 mezzes)

Maximum amount of potential time spent in consecutive CC in WoW: Infinite (Rogue + Mage)

WoW's DR system is one of the worst on the market as there is no way to tell what you are immune to, plus the fact that each type of CC has its own table means that it is very easy to chain CCs and permanently lock down an enemy player (staggering your CC so that the DR refreshes in time for the next cycle).

 

JK and SW have an AoE Mez whose duration is 6 seconds. Also Sith Assassins and Jedi Shadows get a 4 second mez and they have a 2 second stun they can use in stealth or spec into to use it outside of stealth. Scoundrels and Operatives can spec one of their moves so it knocks their opponent on the floor for 1.5 seconds which is effectively a 1.5 second stun.

[Steele_dk]

First:

Stuns are 4 seconds, except for Force Choke which is 3.

Mezzes are all 8 seconds.

There are some blinds/stuns/mezzes that are shorter, but they are all talented extra effects.

Mezzes are not bad considering any damage will break it and it can be cleansed by your healer.

 

Second:

8 Seconds of stun assumes your Breaker is on CD. If your Breaker is available, you are only stunned for 4 + reaction time. Regardless, if you are in an even matchup, your team's job while you are stunned is to pull/stun the train in order to prevent you from dying. Once again, the stun length is not the issue, it is your team's lack of teamwork.

 

Third:

You WANT the enemy team to burn all of their CC on you. You will gain immunity on your second CC meaning that the 3rd and subsequent ones are wasted. Now your team has the advantage of having more potential CC uptime since you haven't whitebarred your enemy but they have whitebarred you.

 

Fourth:

Maximum amount of potential time spent in consecutive CC in SWTOR: 16 seconds (2 mezzes)

Maximum amount of potential time spent in consecutive CC in WoW: Infinite (Rogue + Mage)

WoW's DR system is one of the worst on the market as there is no way to tell what you are immune to, plus the fact that each type of CC has its own table means that it is very easy to chain CCs and permanently lock down an enemy player (staggering your CC so that the DR refreshes in time for the next cycle).

 

1. I think maybe we have different perceptions of a mez, i catorise all stuns in this game as 4 seconds, and all cc to be 8 seconds and then theres mez like Intimidating Roar, shield blind from lighting sorcs which various between 3 and max 6 seconds. And yes there are in shorter stuns like carbonize and force stun. But i think maybe you got mez and cc mixed up.

 

2. Why would 8 Seconds of stun assume your Breaker is on CD? I dont follow this logic. And again you focus on the team is the fault of you being chain stunned. I am focusing on the stuns are too long. No teamwork will reduce the time of you being stunned. The breaker is on 2 minute cooldown and with every class in this game averages 1 stun, 1 cc/1 mez on half the cooldown you will get stunned alot. Not to mention the specs that gets an extra stun or talented mez.

 

3. Oh yes, ofc i want them to burn all their cc on me but as i said were not the boss of that, and a good team wont waste stun/mez/cc on you fx in huttball if its not gonna turn the tide/down the ballcarrier before he passes etc.

 

4. Agreed, i forgot about DR in wow was on seperate player tables but still meant that 1 rogue wouldnt have full duration on his 2nd and third kidney shot, but perhaps a solution would be to do a DR system with one table for each category, stun/mez/cc but personally i think its easier to just cut down on the durations abit.

 

With the current TTK, 8 seconds of uncontrollable action (and defense) is just too much.

[Jadescythe]

1. I think maybe we have different perceptions of a mez, i catorise all stuns in this game as 4 seconds, and all cc to be 8 seconds and then theres mez like Intimidating Roar, shield blind from lighting sorcs which various between 3 and max 6 seconds. And yes there are in shorter stuns like carbonize and force stun. But i think maybe you got mez and cc mixed up.

 

2. Why would 8 Seconds of stun assume your Breaker is on CD? I dont follow this logic. And again you focus on the team is the fault of you being chain stunned. I am focusing on the stuns are too long. No teamwork will reduce the time of you being stunned. The breaker is on 2 minute cooldown and with every class in this game averages 1 stun, 1 cc/1 mez on half the cooldown you will get stunned alot. Not to mention the specs that gets an extra stun or talented mez.

 

3. Oh yes, ofc i want them to burn all their cc on me but as i said were not the boss of that, and a good team wont waste stun/mez/cc on you fx in huttball if its not gonna turn the tide/down the ballcarrier before he passes etc.

 

4. Agreed, i forgot about DR in wow was on seperate player tables but still meant that 1 rogue wouldnt have full duration on his 2nd and third kidney shot, but perhaps a solution would be to do a DR system with one table for each category, stun/mez/cc but personally i think its easier to just cut down on the durations abit.

 

With the current TTK, 8 seconds of uncontrollable action (and defense) is just too much.

 

...sigh

 

CC or crowd control includes stuns, mezzes, and snares. What you are calling CC is actually a stun. The reason he said 8 seconds assumes CC breaker is on CD is because you should be breaking CC when the second stun hits after 4 seconds. Otherwise you're in a mezz, and why would you break it unless you had to stop a cap or your resolve was full? Perhaps you are misunderstanding what stun means:

 

stun = incapacitates character and cannot use abilities

mezz = incapacitates character and cannot use abilities, breaks on damage

snare = reduces character movement up to 100%, can still use abilities

 

If you use terms interchangeably, people will not know what you're talking about and ignore your argument.

 

 

edit: posted wrong number while rereading

Edited August 1, 2012 by Jadescythe

[Darth_Philar]

1. I think maybe we have different perceptions of a mez, i catorise all stuns in this game as 4 seconds, and all cc to be 8 seconds and then theres mez like Intimidating Roar, shield blind from lighting sorcs which various between 3 and max 6 seconds. And yes there are in shorter stuns like carbonize and force stun. But i think maybe you got mez and cc mixed up.

 

2. Why would 8 Seconds of stun assume your Breaker is on CD? I dont follow this logic. And again you focus on the team is the fault of you being chain stunned. I am focusing on the stuns are too long. No teamwork will reduce the time of you being stunned. The breaker is on 2 minute cooldown and with every class in this game averages 1 stun, 1 cc/1 mez on half the cooldown you will get stunned alot. Not to mention the specs that gets an extra stun or talented mez.

 

3. Oh yes, ofc i want them to burn all their cc on me but as i said were not the boss of that, and a good team wont waste stun/mez/cc on you fx in huttball if its not gonna turn the tide/down the ballcarrier before he passes etc.

 

4. Agreed, i forgot about DR in wow was on seperate player tables but still meant that 1 rogue wouldnt have full duration on his 2nd and third kidney shot, but perhaps a solution would be to do a DR system with one table for each category, stun/mez/cc but personally i think its easier to just cut down on the durations abit.

 

With the current TTK, 8 seconds of uncontrollable action (and defense) is just too much.

 

For the purposes of this thread, I'm going to run down some definitions:

 

CC = Crowd Control. All effects that limit the player's control of the character, or limit the character's movement.

CC is divided into two main categories in SWTOR, which each have different sub types of CC as follows:

 

1. Resolve Effects (these CCs add resolve points and the player is immune to them when whitebarred)

A. Stuns - Incapacitating effects that remove total control from the player. Damage does not break the effect. These add 200 Resolve per second of maximum duration. 4 Seconds is the maximum length.

B. Mezzes - Incapacitating effects that remove total control from the player. Damage breaks the effect and the effect can be purged. These add 100 Resolve per second of maximum duration. 8 Seconds is the maximum length.

C. Forced Movement - These effects forcibly move your character to a new location through hostile initiated pulls, pushes, or knockdowns. These effects add 400 Resolve per incident.

 

2. Non Resolve Effects (these CCs add no resolve points and the player does not receive immunity when whitebarred)

A. Snares - Movement speed reduction.

B. Roots - Total movement loss.

 

 

 

Now that we are on the same page with respect to what everything is called and what it does, I would like to point out that you have already identified the actual problem with CCs in SWTOR. It isn't the length of the CC or the Resolve system, but rather the ridiculous TTK. The problem right now is that burst classes synergize too well, and healing/preventative measures don't.

[Steele_dk]

...sigh

 

CC or crowd control includes stuns, mezzes, and snares. What you are calling CC is actually a stun. The reason he said 8 seconds assumes CC breaker is on CD is because you should be breaking CC when the second stun hits after 4 seconds. Otherwise you're in a mezz, and why would you break it unless you had to stop a cap or your resolve was full? Perhaps you are misunderstanding what stun means:

 

stun = incapacitates character and cannot use abilities

mezz = incapacitates character and cannot use abilities, breaks on damage

snare = reduces character movement up to 100%, can still use abilities

 

If you use terms interchangeably, people will not know what you're talking about and ignore your argument.

 

 

edit: posted wrong number while rereading

 

I know how the mechanics work. Maybe i am just too familar of using the term CC from wow because wow didnt use the term mez.

 

My point still is the same, the duration of these is far to long in this game for it to be entertaining pvp.

 

And again, how does 8 seconds stun assume my breaker is on cd? You could have your breaker on cooldown from previous encounter and a fresh resolve bar once you get back to the a new encounter. 2 minutes is a long time.

[Darth_Philar]

I know how the mechanics work. Maybe i am just too familar of using the term CC from wow because wow didnt use the term mez.

 

My point still is the same, the duration of these is far to long in this game for it to be entertaining pvp.

 

And again, how does 8 seconds stun assume my breaker is on cd? You could have your breaker on cooldown from previous encounter and a fresh resolve bar once you get back to the a new encounter. 2 minutes is a long time.

 

If your breaker is on CD, you will wait out the entire duration of 2 stuns (8 seconds).

If your breaker is off CD, you will use it immediately after your Resolve Bar turns white meaning you will wait out the first stun (4 seconds) and then whatever your reaction time may be of the second stun.

[LarryRow]

Wow, way to start yet another new thread on resolve without adding anything to the discussion. What's the matter, didn't want to post in any of the hundreds of threads about the issue? Somehow your QQ was the best QQ?

 

And now I hate myself a little for bumping this to the top of the list.

[Steele_dk]

For the purposes of this thread, I'm going to run down some definitions:

 

CC = Crowd Control. All effects that limit the player's control of the character, or limit the character's movement.

CC is divided into two main categories in SWTOR, which each have different sub types of CC as follows:

 

1. Resolve Effects (these CCs add resolve points and the player is immune to them when whitebarred)

A. Stuns - Incapacitating effects that remove total control from the player. Damage does not break the effect. These add 200 Resolve per second of maximum duration. 4 Seconds is the maximum length.

B. Mezzes - Incapacitating effects that remove total control from the player. Damage breaks the effect and the effect can be purged. These add 100 Resolve per second of maximum duration. 8 Seconds is the maximum length.

C. Forced Movement - These effects forcibly move your character to a new location through hostile initiated pulls, pushes, or knockdowns. These effects add 400 Resolve per incident.

 

2. Non Resolve Effects (these CCs add no resolve points and the player does not receive immunity when whitebarred)

A. Snares - Movement speed reduction.

B. Roots - Total movement loss.

 

 

 

Now that we are on the same page with respect to what everything is called and what it does, I would like to point out that you have already identified the actual problem with CCs in SWTOR. It isn't the length of the CC or the Resolve system, but rather the ridiculous TTK. The problem right now is that burst classes synergize too well, and healing/preventative measures don't.

 

Again i know how the cc mechanics work in SWTOR I used the wrong term, old habbit

 

TTK could be another way of looking at it yes, but that is much harder to balance i think as it is essential a matter of class balancing everyones TTK. We can see how much difference the relic change did. Sages are still the lowest TTK atm.

[Tkara]

Well, i guess i hope as many others do to raise my concerns to biowares attention.

 

I know its a longshot but that doesnt mean i shouldnt try.

 

I think there is many of us that feels the same way about resolve and stuns/cc/mez in the game.

 

I feel the same way.

 

Stun Wars it is.

[Steele_dk]

If your breaker is on CD, you will wait out the entire duration of 2 stuns (8 seconds).

But ofc mr sherlock?

 

If your breaker is off CD, you will use it immediately after your Resolve Bar turns white meaning you will wait out the first stun (4 seconds) and then whatever your reaction time may be of the second stun.

 

Ofc again! but what does that have to do wether your breaker is on cd or not lol

 

Does using your breaker correct reset the cooldown of it? Did i miss something??

 

I asked why his assumption that breaker would be on cd when youre stunned for 8 seconds and you go into explaining when to use it, jesus some ppl

Edited August 1, 2012 by Steele_dk

[islander]

Resolve and CC mechanics are fine.

 

The most amount of stuns you can suffer in a row (chain) is 2 for a total of 8 seconds, however that requires at least 2 enemies to be attacking you meaning you are going to die anyway so it isn't the stun's fault, it is your fault for walking into an unwinnable situation.

 

.

 

LOL, you do realize that by simply entering a warzone as a healer, you walk into this...right? Yeah, it's our fault for walking into a large battle and getting zerged by 2-4. Riiiight.

 

Could be my team's fault for letting me get smacked around like a pinata, but the reality is these are PUGs we are talking about. Even if you queue with 2-3 great guildmates you still have 4-5 'others' who may or may not be useful.

 

Expecting intelligent warzone play out of anything other then ranked team play is completely unreasonable.

Edited August 1, 2012 by islander

[Darth_Philar]

But ofc mr sherlock?

 

 

 

Ofc again! but what does that have to do wether your breaker is on cd or not lol

 

Does using your breaker correct reset the cooldown of it? Did i miss something??

 

I asked why his assumption that breaker would be on cd when youre stunned for 8 seconds and you go into explaining when to use it, jesus some ppl

 

The explanation provides the reason for the assumption.

If your breaker is on CD (assumption) then you can be stunned for 8 seconds.

If your breaker is off of CD (counter assumption) then you can only be stunned for 4+ seconds (the + being anywhere from reaction time to 4 seconds for a total stun of 4+reaction to 4+4).

[kweassa]

LOL, you do realize that by simply entering a warzone as a healer, you walk into this...right? Yeah, it's our fault for walking into a large battle and getting zerged by 2-4. Riiiight.

 

Yep. You're in a bad team. No peels, no cross-heals, no tank taunts, no guards, and up against 2~4 enemies at the same time. Dying in seconds sounds about right.

 

Could be my team's fault for letting me get smacked around like a pinata, but the reality is these are PUGs we are talking about. Even if you queue with 2-3 great guildmates you still have 4-5 'others' who may or may not be useful.

 

The same goes both ways. The enemy may not be coordinated enough to swarm you adequately. In many cases people just fire off any CCs at any moment and only give out free full resolve at the worst possible moments, making it impossible to intercept crucial healing moments.

 

Ofcourse, whiners tend to always suppose one thing, while totally disregarding the other... and have this nasty habit of portraying themselves always as the victims of the worst possible situations, whereas totally disregarding the same situations that give them the kills and wins.

 

But then again, that's what whiners do. *shrug*

 

 

Expecting intelligent warzone play out of anything other then ranked team play is completely unreasonable.

 

Again, that goes both ways. If your team is full of morons, the odds are, so's the same with the other team, and just a handful of good players can easily turn tides.