Expertise is a problem.

[Xanrn]

Simple fix.

 

1. Fix Class Balance, bring Pyrotechs and Operative Healers, down from their Cloud Bases. Bring Sage healers, DPS Scoundrels/Ops, Dps Comm/Mercs up from their sewers. Balance Maurader/Sent defensive cooldowns.

 

2. Implement X-server PVP, this fixes local Faction Imbalances.

 

3. Add Solo Ranked Warzones, X-server should allow to not place PUGs against premades ever.

 

4. Limit Normal Warzones to Battlemaster level gear only, War Hero etc would get stats reduced down.

 

5. Split the Daily/Weekly, 1 Daily/ 1 Weekly for Normal Warzones that only rewards WZ Comms, same for Ranked WZ that only rewards Ranked Comms. Don't remove trading comm types.

 

6. Profit. you have now improved balance, improved pvp progression and improved happy feelings.

 

People hit lvl 50, get Recruit Gear, go into normal Warzones against max Augmented BM, then they have a choice grind full BM and then jump to Ranked or grind full War Hero (or part) in Normal then jump across.

 

Thought frankly, Bioware will probably just use the Level Cap rise to hit the reset button. Lvl 55/60 free Recruit War Hero gear, then new 55/60 PVP Gear (1 or 2) to grind with new Comms.

[Tankqull]

expertise just needs to get rid off - in compensation put some easy reachable stat caps into the WZ trauma debuff. wich would neglect any advantage a pve guy would have by better gear...

 

balance is easier to achieve, dmg would be more controlable etc...

Edited July 26, 2012 by Tankqull

[Quinlynn]

I agree with OP and gear should be gear.

 

No one should have to change gear just to do PVP or PVE.

 

Many more MMOs operate this way and they tend to be the better games.

 

This game lacks incentives for PVP'ers to do PVE and for PVE'ers to do PVP.

 

IMHO.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Quinlynn

[Astarica]

It's really amazing that most people can't seem to grasp that Expertise exists so that you have to PvP to be the best at PvP in terms of gear.

 

If there is no Expertise we'd see a thread titled "Campaign Gear is a problem" and it'd talk about how people with that gear are too powerful.

[Quinlynn]

It's really amazing that most people can't seem to grasp that Expertise exists so that you have to PvP to be the best at PvP in terms of gear.

 

If there is no Expertise we'd see a thread titled "Campaign Gear is a problem" and it'd talk about how people with that gear are too powerful.

 

This is just being daft.

 

Removal of expertise is not to imply that current PVP gear would not be brought in line with PVE gear.

 

Expertise is nothing more than a way of making players grind more than they should hvae to. It's an idiot developers short cut to creating grind content.

[Astarica]

This is just being daft.

 

Removal of expertise is not to imply that current PVP gear would not be brought in line with PVE gear.

 

Expertise is nothing more than a way of making players grind more than they should hvae to. It's an idiot developers short cut to creating grind content.

 

So you seem to imply it takes too long to grind PvP gear because of Expertise. If they're no better than PvE which, according to you, takes less time, why even have PvP gear at all? And if they do take as long (or longer) than PvE gear to get, why is it less effective to gear for PvP by playing PvP than PvE?

 

Saying Expertise is a way to cut corner shows a staggering lack of understanding of how game design element works. There are any number of ways to create more artifiical grinds without needing Expertise. Expertise exists as a solution (maybe not a good one, but it's at least one) to make PvP and PvE gear both meaningful. I consistently see people complain about PvP gear are the guys who don't have it, but yet I don't see the same guys supporting the guys who complain they shouldn't have to do PvE for the best PvE gear.

[DarthOvertone]

Look...I don't think anyone in SWTOR PvP is really an advocate for Expertise. Sure there might be a minority of peeps that love it, but ya know...they are a small and strange group.

 

Most of us wouldn't mind seeing it removed from the game entirely. Personally, I don't think there needs to be a distinction between PvEers/PvPers at endgame. Just let everyone gear up how they want, play the game how they want, and just kill each other. There will still be a gear race, peeps will still be min/maxing and have plenty to do, there just won't be this extra stat to throw things off.

 

A lot of people QQ about a lack of balance in PvP and they say there is class imbalance. I disagree. A lot of what we perceive as imbalance, is in fact, Expertise being applied by the Devs incorrectly. Just look at Maras/Sents and PTs/Vans. These classes didn't change that much from 1.1.5 to 1.2. Yet now peeps are QQing OP across the board concerning these classes and the trail of tears never stops. The only thing that really changed in 1.2 was Expertise and how it functions in WZs.The classes didn't change much at all. Expertise changed dramatically. Suddenly TTK becomes a short sliver of time and now peeps are raging that there is class imbalance. Fail.

 

Anyway...the opportunity already exists in game for us all to be on a fairly level playing field in PvP even with Expertise. We could all just use Recruit Gear when we PvP. It's free and available to all. If everyone really wanted balance like they say, there you have it...near insta-Expertise balance in seconds. But, of course, nobody will do that will they...

[Akatoshia]

Personally I think that expertise is a way for the PvP devs to control PvP gear progression separately from the PvE progression. In this way, the devs can create the kind of PvP environment that can be modified without screwing up PvE balance.

 

What would happen in a WZ if everybody was wearing campaign gear? TTk would go way down, healers would be under powered, and the general feel of PvP would be waaaaaay off. With expertise, the devs can impose artificial buffs/nerfs/caps that keep our skills in check and keep the competition fresh and fun.

 

As someone posted before, expertise cancels with itself at similar levels. Even +- 250 exp only amounts to ~1-2% of a difference in the numbers... PvP gear progresses just like PvE gear, and everyone here would be whining just the same because without expertise, it would still be just like tionesse vs campaign...

[Ybini]

Once after a couple of months of grinding it out everyone has full war hero auged then expertise won't matter. Edited July 26, 2012 by Ybini

[Astarica]

If everyone wore Campaign gear instead of WH the TTK and everything else would be mostly the same because gear is meant to have equal offense/defense gains. Any discrepency would just be due to that particular set of gear being too heavily itemized for offense or defense. For the purpose of PvP, WH is more potent on offense and defense so there's absolutely no conclusion you can draw about what happens if everyone wears Campaign instead.

 

Expertise is a necessary tool to keep PvP and PvE separate. Now you can argue is it even a good idea to keep PvP and PvE gear separate and that I don't know but it's not something I have any say on. It seems like MMORPGs in general have their mind pretty set on "PvP gear must be different from PvE gear" so that part is not up to debate. Within this framework, of course Expertise is necessary. If some ambitious dev wants to blow away previous held beliefs about gearing, I'm all for it but I doubt SWTOR is where you'll find this.

[Foenixz]

Today, there are many people who want Expertise removed from the game. Right now in SW:TOR's PvP it's not based on the player's skill or technique, no it's based on some stupid system WoW thought was an excellent idea. A real life situation is an Operative and a Tank Powertech engage in combat. The Tank Powertech has 1095 expertise, the operative has 1290. The operative vanishes uses his only 5 attacks that do damage and brings the Powertech's health to 40 or 30%. Then a teammate walks in to finish the job. and it's GG! The Powertech had no chance, not to mention the fact that Expertise can dominate the whole team in a warzone. It's not even player versus player, no it's expertise versus expertise. SWTOR just copied another one of WoW's ideas. GJ Bioware!

 

expertise was introducd to create differences in PvE and PvP gear.

 

'nuff said

 

PS QQing about a PT going to down is laughable

[Scritchy]

expertise was introducd to create differences in PvE and PvP gear.

Expertise was created because a bunch of people who never made a game with PVP decided to copy another game without knowing why or how things worked and botched it up incredibly badly.

[Macabrae]

Today, there are many people who want Expertise in the game.

 

 

Fixed for ya no need to thank me........

Edited July 26, 2012 by Macabrae

[Senatorial]

There is a problem with the idea of "PvP gear progression."

 

In PvE:

 

If you just hit 50, go play some dailies.

If you have daily gear, play some HM's and get some Tionese/Columi.

If you have Tionese/Columi, play some Ops and get full Columi.

If you have full Columi, play some HM Ops and get Rakata.

If you have Rakata, go play EC and get full Rakata/BH.

If you have full Rakata/BH, go play EC and get campaign.

 

Nice progression, right?

PvP version:

 

If you have nothing, get Recruit.

If you have Recruit, fight some full augged WH Sages.

If you have partial BM, fight some full augged WH Operatives.

If you have full BM, fight some full augged WH PT's.

If you have partial WH, fight some full augged WH Maras.

...

 

Not so much progression as mindless grinding at an inescapable disadvantage.

 

The problem isn't expertise, it's the gap between beginners and people with too much time on their hands and subscriptions. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but they shouldn't get a free ride at the expense of, for instance, people who just transferred of a dead server. Sure, you have to PvP to get PvP gear, but the progression above is not PvP, it's idiocy.

 

I kind of liked the idea of autocapping gear at BM in unranked Warzones. Though, since people really don't like to be artificially debuffed, I'd say autobuff Recruit-geared people up to BM level.

[Daikeru]

There is a problem with the idea of "PvP gear progression."

 

In PvE:

 

If you just hit 50, go play some dailies.

If you have daily gear, play some HM's and get some Tionese/Columi.

If you have Tionese/Columi, play some Ops and get full Columi.

If you have full Columi, play some HM Ops and get Rakata.

If you have Rakata, go play EC and get full Rakata/BH.

If you have full Rakata/BH, go play EC and get campaign.

 

Nice progression, right?

PvP version:

 

If you have nothing, get Recruit.

If you have Recruit, fight some full augged WH Sages.

If you have partial BM, fight some full augged WH Operatives.

If you have full BM, fight some full augged WH PT's.

If you have partial WH, fight some full augged WH Maras.

...

 

Not so much progression as mindless grinding at an inescapable disadvantage.

 

The problem isn't expertise, it's the gap between beginners and people with too much time on their hands and subscriptions. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but they shouldn't get a free ride at the expense of, for instance, people who just transferred of a dead server. Sure, you have to PvP to get PvP gear, but the progression above is not PvP, it's idiocy.

 

I kind of liked the idea of autocapping gear at BM in unranked Warzones. Though, since people really don't like to be artificially debuffed, I'd say autobuff Recruit-geared people up to BM level.

 

Only problem with that is then those who min max will still have the advantage. There isn't just main stat and endurance on those gear

Also, I like how you're always against a full team of full WH w/ augs. One side never has recruit gear.

[Astarica]

Expertise was created because a bunch of people who never made a game with PVP decided to copy another game without knowing why or how things worked and botched it up incredibly badly.

 

Except WoW is copying Expertise to replace Resilence.

[funkiestj]

There is a problem with the idea of "PvP gear progression."

 

In PvE:

 

If you just hit 50, go play some dailies.

If you have daily gear, play some HM's and get some Tionese/Columi.

If you have Tionese/Columi, play some Ops and get full Columi.

If you have full Columi, play some HM Ops and get Rakata.

If you have Rakata, go play EC and get full Rakata/BH.

If you have full Rakata/BH, go play EC and get campaign.

 

Nice progression, right?

PvP version:

 

If you have nothing, get Recruit.

If you have Recruit, fight some full augged WH Sages.

If you have partial BM, fight some full augged WH Operatives.

If you have full BM, fight some full augged WH PT's.

If you have partial WH, fight some full augged WH Maras.

...

 

Not so much progression as mindless grinding at an inescapable disadvantage.

 

The problem isn't expertise, it's the gap between beginners and people with too much time on their hands and subscriptions. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but they shouldn't get a free ride at the expense of, for instance, people who just transferred of a dead server. Sure, you have to PvP to get PvP gear, but the progression above is not PvP, it's idiocy.

 

I kind of liked the idea of autocapping gear at BM in unranked Warzones..

 

 

 

An alternate solution is to have cross server queuing and a match making algorithm that never pits the weakest teams against the strongest.

Edited July 26, 2012 by funkiestj

[Quinlynn]

So you seem to imply it takes too long to grind PvP gear because of Expertise. If they're no better than PvE which, according to you, takes less time, why even have PvP gear at all? And if they do take as long (or longer) than PvE gear to get, why is it less effective to gear for PvP by playing PvP than PvE?

 

Saying Expertise is a way to cut corner shows a staggering lack of understanding of how game design element works. There are any number of ways to create more artifiical grinds without needing Expertise. Expertise exists as a solution (maybe not a good one, but it's at least one) to make PvP and PvE gear both meaningful. I consistently see people complain about PvP gear are the guys who don't have it, but yet I don't see the same guys supporting the guys who complain they shouldn't have to do PvE for the best PvE gear.

 

Gear should be gear regardless of the game activity.

 

Has nothing to do with what is harder or easier to get. As far as I am concerned PVE is harder to get.

 

The reason for keeping both, even without expertise, would be to pull mods and make the suit that you really want.

 

Both PVP and PVE gear are god awful ugly so would not change the desire for players to purchase crafted stuff to put pulled mods in.

 

Expertise is nothing more than a crutch for those that suck at PVP so that they can fight those that don't have it and win, and a reason to grind.

[Daikeru]

The reason for keeping both, even without expertise, would be to pull mods and make the suit that you really want.

Both PVP and PVE gear are god awful ugly so would not change the desire for players to purchase crafted stuff to put pulled mods in.

Expertise is nothing more than a crutch for those that suck at PVP so that they can fight those that don't have it and win, and a reason to grind.

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I know some people, and I personally, that like how some of the PvE/PvP gear looks. Expertise is nothing more than a crutch for those that suck at PvP? How'd you come to that conclusion?

[Quinlynn]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I know some people, and I personally, that like how some of the PvE/PvP gear looks. Expertise is nothing more than a crutch for those that suck at PvP? How'd you come to that conclusion?

 

The twinks in 10-49 WZs that have geared out with purple and pulled expertise from the lower level weapons and put them in that gear. Granted not much expertise, however enough to make a difference when fighting in the 10-49 WZs.

 

People that were rolling me before I had same amount of expertise now get rolled by me. I'm not that good and do this on my hybird sage.

 

Expertise is a stupid game mechanic that encourages one form of game play over another. If gear was gear with no expertise, more peeps would PVP that generally only PVE and vice versa.

 

IMHO

[RefugeASSASSIN]

All these threads ever amount to is that some peope grinded out War Hero and augmented their gear and you dont want to put the time in to do it yourself.

 

If I want to PVE I have to invest the time to gear up.

 

If you want to PVP, you have to invest the time to gear up.

 

Every MMO has this basic principle so if you dont like it or think its unfair, your simply in the wrong game Genre.

[Bladeprophet]

Should people be allowed to use columni gear and down explosive conflict hard mode? No. There is always a gear tree.

 

[if anything, its the dying population and the lack of people in warzones. Bioware needs a system where gear scores and team rating factors into the team of opponent you play. But with a dying population, obviously badly geared people trying to do rateds are then paired against the top levels of competition simply because there is barely anyone queueing.

 

^^^ Missing the point, and making wrong assumptions. The population on my server is the same as it was 2 months ago, judging by who's on the fleet (as far as I can tell, the common conception that the server population is dying is a myth). BUT, people are avoiding PvP because it isn't fun. The fact is there are plenty of WH-geared players in regular war zones, at least some of which are clearly pre-mades. A team of PuGs in recruit gear going up against a team of players who both outclass you and outgear you is the exact opposite of fun.

 

I'm not sure that removing expertise is a useful solution to the problem, but to restore the fun of PvP, something needs to be done to get players into matches with people of similar gear and skill levels. Some possible improvements might be:

 

- have different queues for different gear tiers

- different queues for premades vs. pugs

- (if not different queues) the ability to opt out of opposing premades

- naked warzones (while in zone, everyone is auto-fitted with the same gear)

 

Honestly, I've never understood the appeal of gear tiers. They basically force you into grinding out the same content over and over again, to get the magic tokens to get the gear (or your chance at a gear drop, or whatever your game does). That's fun? No. Then the result is that a bunch of players who play as close to 24x7 as they can have all the best gear quickly, and no one else can compete with them until they find the time to do all that other unfun garbage (or, commonly enough, never). So when you end up in a PvP conflict with them, the fight is not even close to balanced; and that my friend is also the opposite of fun... even if I'm the one with the best gear. If it's not a challenge, what's the point?

 

Premades vs. PuGs just make it worse... premades generally play together, know each other's styles and tactics, and are very well coordinated, usually connected via some voice chat. PuGs are the exact opposite of that, and stand no chance against the premades. It's a painful slaughter with an outcome that's predetermined the moment the teams are formed.

 

How does any of this add up to fun, regardless of which side you're on? If you're the hardcore player, winning is easy and boring. If you're the casual PuGer, winning is frustratingly impossible. I'm not sure the OP has the right solution, but I definitely feel the same frustration.

[supafreak]

There is a problem with the idea of "PvP gear progression."

 

In PvE:

 

If you just hit 50, go play some dailies.

If you have daily gear, play some HM's and get some Tionese/Columi.

If you have Tionese/Columi, play some Ops and get full Columi.

If you have full Columi, play some HM Ops and get Rakata.

If you have Rakata, go play EC and get full Rakata/BH.

If you have full Rakata/BH, go play EC and get campaign.

 

Nice progression, right?

PvP version:

 

If you have nothing, get Recruit.

If you have Recruit, fight some full augged WH Sages.

If you have partial BM, fight some full augged WH Operatives.

If you have full BM, fight some full augged WH PT's.

If you have partial WH, fight some full augged WH Maras.

...

 

Not so much progression as mindless grinding at an inescapable disadvantage.

 

Yep, playing 1000's of matches to be able to start real PVP is ridiculous

[EdratLightindark]

Today , 03:26 AM | #20

 

 

Report PostQuote

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote: Originally Posted by Kilikaa

 

But my point is we should not need expertise at all. There should be no separation between pve and pvp gear. The same separation in the pve gear can be used for all gear. Expertise should be removed. I know why it is there but it's not a smart system and neither is the pve/pvp separation. I just don't understand the need for it. I believe the game would be a lot better off without it. Just my opinion.

 

Then the people who did more PVE, would have an advantage over those who played only PVP, in PVP.

 

 

Actually no. You could go buy the armor you needed off a vendor. PVE and PVP players all bought the same armor. It didnt require you too do anything but aquire credits to buy it. The seperation in this game between the two is total crap. No expertise should be needed. If you were good you would not need any gear gap, you would be OK with having the same gear across the board.

Edited July 26, 2012 by EdratLightindark
forgot to quote.....

[Renita]

There is a problem with the idea of "PvP gear progression."

 

In PvE:

 

If you just hit 50, go play some dailies.

If you have daily gear, play some HM's and get some Tionese/Columi.

If you have Tionese/Columi, play some Ops and get full Columi.

If you have full Columi, play some HM Ops and get Rakata.

If you have Rakata, go play EC and get full Rakata/BH.

If you have full Rakata/BH, go play EC and get campaign.

 

Nice progression, right?

PvP version:

 

If you have nothing, get Recruit.

If you have Recruit, fight some full augged WH Sages.

If you have partial BM, fight some full augged WH Operatives.

If you have full BM, fight some full augged WH PT's.

If you have partial WH, fight some full augged WH Maras.

...

 

Not so much progression as mindless grinding at an inescapable disadvantage.

 

The problem isn't expertise, it's the gap between beginners and people with too much time on their hands and subscriptions. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but they shouldn't get a free ride at the expense of, for instance, people who just transferred of a dead server. Sure, you have to PvP to get PvP gear, but the progression above is not PvP, it's idiocy.

 

I kind of liked the idea of autocapping gear at BM in unranked Warzones. Though, since people really don't like to be artificially debuffed, I'd say autobuff Recruit-geared people up to BM level.

 

I have a better recommendation. Pvp a lot in lowbies. Save up coms.

 

Start out, full recruit plus 2 pieces of BM and one warhero.

 

Every week you should be able to earn at least 2 to 3 pieces of BM just by finishing the dailies and weeklies. Assuming you don't pvp so much you get nearly full BM within one week. Yes this takes a lot of matches so it's not the norm.

 

Every time you get a piece of BM you should augment it. You will have it for awhile, what are you waiting for?

 

This gear progression is just as fast if not faster than you can get columi, since you can only do each op once per week, but you can do several fps to get columi faster, but it takes a lot of fps or good rng

 

Yes it then takes a long time to get warhero, but it takes a long time to get campaign gear too unless you have good rng.

 

The difference here is that you sometimes have to fight really hard against stronger pvpers, better gear, but you also sometimes fight against really terrible pvpers. That's just how pvp is, and that is why you always get coms as opposed to in pve of you spend the entire night wiping all you leave with is a heafty repair bill.