Sage/Sorc do you think you are underpowered?

[JeffIncredible]

lol an you always dont have line of sight... they have roots... and they have immune to CC with hunker down and just as many CCs... you play bad snipers point taken.

 

If you don't have LOS of a sniper you just force run out of his range. Snipers are the only class I smile at when I engage. If the sniper wastes his CC immunity on a sorc then your job is already done.

[Aurelin]

I thought I'd chime in as a sorcerer healer. I enjoy this class - the spells, mechanics, and overall flavor (tastes like green apple). I've played a smuggler and mercenary healer well into level 50 and for some reason, neither class has "fit" me as well as my sorcerer. For this reason, I can't see myself re-rolling or quitting. Regardless, I've tried to be as objective and neutral in my assessment as possible.

 

Despite this, I'm frustrated with my survivability in warzones. Many players on our server are established and privy to the "kill the sorcerer first" tactic. I find myself constantly on the move to LOS objects and meticulously managing escape and crowd control cooldowns to survive.

 

I'm pounced by dps every time I respawn in a warzone, and I feel like this has forced me to become a better player. I can, when timed right, narrowly escape death as the rest of my team lazily twirl around their glowsticks, eventually poking the enemy team to death.

 

I would say this is just a healer issue. I'd say, "Oh, this is to be expected. This is PVP, right?" And then, while watching from the safety of a blinking force field, I watch an operative healer wade through dps, shooting kolto probes into her teammate's backsides, everyone at high health - the enemy dps frothing with frustration at their inability to glowstick the healer to death.

 

In my experience, mercenary healers or operative healers don't have to work as hard as I do, not only to survive, but also to support their teams. This is not just an observation, it's also after playing the three classes in similar situations.

 

In rateds, in pugs, it doesn't matter -- I'm squishy. Everyone tells me this. I even specialized and geared to maximize survivability. I can handle being trained and dying a lot. I don't expect to be guarded or baby-sat. I can swallow my 14 deaths and 600k+ damage taken and queue back up with optimistic determination.

 

What does bother me, though, is the fact, my rated team wants to replace me with a mercenary healer since they are guaranteed some uptime, where I am guaranteed nothing. And according to them, queuing without an operative healer is "retarded". Please don't lop my head off for this analogy, but I feel like a discipline priest without the pain suppression. Sorry, it was the only thing I could think of. In other words:

 

Where's my one opportunity to actually participate in the match? (if you remember, it was often a tactic to switch targets once the pain suppression was cast on a player. No, I'm not asking for a "pain suppression". It's just an analogy.)

 

As far as DPS sorcerers are concerned, I understand they're in a woeful state. Our rated team also wants to prune them away and two have already rerolled with, in their words, much better results (powertech and sniper). And that's sad, because those sorcerers were not only heftily geared, but great players.

 

I hope this post does not leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth. This is just my experience and my boss is not here, so I want to play around on the computer like everyone else.

[Jaiyne]

sorcs are fine as long as you try harder and are better geared than anyone you expect to beat.

 

qft

[Jaiyne]

I thought I'd chime in as a sorcerer healer

 

Your entire post is spot on. The entire experience is represented exactly as it is in WZs - rated or otherwise. Operative healers can basically be in the fight - while we are confined to running most of the fight.

[Annex]

I thought I'd chime in as a sorcerer healer. I enjoy this class - the spells, mechanics, and overall flavor (tastes like green apple). I've played a smuggler and mercenary healer well into level 50 and for some reason, neither class has "fit" me as well as my sorcerer. For this reason, I can't see myself re-rolling or quitting. Regardless, I've tried to be as objective and neutral in my assessment as possible.

 

Despite this, I'm frustrated with my survivability in warzones. Many players on our server are established and privy to the "kill the sorcerer first" tactic. I find myself constantly on the move to LOS objects and meticulously managing escape and crowd control cooldowns to survive.

 

I'm pounced by dps every time I respawn in a warzone, and I feel like this has forced me to become a better player. I can, when timed right, narrowly escape death as the rest of my team lazily twirl around their glowsticks, eventually poking the enemy team to death.

 

I would say this is just a healer issue. I'd say, "Oh, this is to be expected. This is PVP, right?" And then, while watching from the safety of a blinking force field, I watch an operative healer wade through dps, shooting kolto probes into her teammate's backsides, everyone at high health - the enemy dps frothing with frustration at their inability to glowstick the healer to death.

 

In my experience, mercenary healers or operative healers don't have to work as hard as I do, not only to survive, but also to support their teams. This is not just an observation, it's also after playing the three classes in similar situations.

 

In rateds, in pugs, it doesn't matter -- I'm squishy. Everyone tells me this. I even specialized and geared to maximize survivability. I can handle being trained and dying a lot. I don't expect to be guarded or baby-sat. I can swallow my 14 deaths and 600k+ damage taken and queue back up with optimistic determination.

 

What does bother me, though, is the fact, my rated team wants to replace me with a mercenary healer since they are guaranteed some uptime, where I am guaranteed nothing. And according to them, queuing without an operative healer is "retarded". Please don't lop my head off for this analogy, but I feel like a discipline priest without the pain suppression. Sorry, it was the only thing I could think of. In other words:

 

Where's my one opportunity to actually participate in the match? (if you remember, it was often a tactic to switch targets once the pain suppression was cast on a player. No, I'm not asking for a "pain suppression". It's just an analogy.)

 

As far as DPS sorcerers are concerned, I understand they're in a woeful state. Our rated team also wants to prune them away and two have already rerolled with, in their words, much better results (powertech and sniper). And that's sad, because those sorcerers were not only heftily geared, but great players.

 

I hope this post does not leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth. This is just my experience and my boss is not here, so I want to play around on the computer like everyone else.

 

Excellent post, this sums up my feelings too.

 

The class is playable, just not optimal. A good player on a sorc healer < a good player on another heal class. In high end PvP mobility and defence is king, not output.

[SlimsPicken]

All I know is that after playing my sorc/sage I usually am mentally exhausted from all the micro management and running for my life.

 

No other class do I run as much as on the sorc/sage....how fun... my defense is run away from everyone, everytime I get attacked. Most classes snare you 30-50%, and many can reapply nearly instantly, making cleanse near useless. Force speed can be rooted, which it is 95% of the time its used. The bubble lasts one hit and has a 17-20 sec cooldown... all in all its really alot of work to even stay alive, much less contribute healing/dps under pressure.

 

mentally exhausting, and all you do is die tired running.

[Calogerus]

Sorc (wall if text warning)

 

From my own experience I tend to find myself running away more than anything. I love being a caster (obvious why I made a sorc) casters since the dawn of dawn have been hard hitters with low health and armor we all know this as a Glass Cannon.

 

Was that design intent for the Sorc? Sometimes I wonder what our design really is. If we were designed to well... die then I'd say Bioware did a pretty good job. I've had my fair share of MMO experiences and while I'm not an elite on everything I do I like to think with the amount of time I put into my class, gearing it and learning my spec and learning other classes (in pvp you can't survive as a caster unless you know the other classes dmg/defense CD's and such duuuuh)

I'm pretty good at what I do.

 

In SWTOR what I do is DoT run Dot run Force Lightning. That's it. I hear the argument for Rock Paper whatever I'm sorry have you played an MMO? This isn't how it works. Melee should beat a caster/ranged if they get close caster/ranged should beat a melee at ranged. In between is where player skill comes into play. At this point it takes no player skill to kill a sorc and if you say it does your either the PVP happy class or a very very elite sorc and I must say congrats on that.

 

Bottom Line- We should be designed to die in a few hits but have some dmg mitigation/escape cds AND put out massive damage. So far we are just designed to die.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Calogerus

[Evil_Santa]

1.1 seconds is an eternity. Any decent gamer who plays anything other than an RPG has much faster reactions.

 

Starcraft? Reaction time is milliseconds.

First Person Shooters? Reaction time is milliseconds.

 

 

I guarantee you I will interrupt you in 1.1 seconds.

 

You're confusing reaction time with prediction abilities.

 

In Starcraft you scout to gain information on what your opponent is doing in order to predict their movements as best as you can, and react based on those.

 

In FPS games you're shooting based on prediction of where your opponents will be.

 

There is a reaction time that goes into the above two examples, but you're reacting based on predictions to react quickly.

 

When dueling me, you don't know when i'm going to hit you with that setup, and more then likely i've stunned you before popping reckless/polarity shift, and while you're debating about hitting your CC breaker, i've just took out 6k from your health.

[Thanatus]

Well, clearly not every class can solo any other class but as a full war hero (fully augmented) sorc dps the max single hit damage I get is around 3.5k on a 15s CD when I'm hit by multiple 3-5k damage by virtually everyone else is kinda ridiculous.

[Nocadoj]

Well, clearly not every class can solo any other class but as a full war hero (fully augmented) sorc dps the max single hit damage I get is around 3.5k on a 15s CD when I'm hit by multiple 3-5k damage by virtually everyone else is kinda ridiculous.

 

Try 9k. These guilds are on my server, both of which are really good and all have full war hero gear.

 

http://i.imgur.com/datDs.jpg

 

Almost full War Hero Balance Sage, my biggest hits are 4k (Force in Balance). This guy is an Assassin.

 

Ive never seen it for myself, but I hear Slamtard Guardians/Juggs can crit up to 10k, which is obviously AoE too. We somehow are the squishiest class, but have the least burst by half, it doesnt make sense to me at all.

 

Lastly, this pic is of the best PvP guild on my server. They are like 80-1 or something like that. Notice their comp? Powertech, Maurader, 2x Sniper, Sorc Heal, OP Heal, Assassin DPS/tank. No merc dps, no Sage dps, no OP dps. I find this to be the case with most high end PvP teams. Of coarse, there is no imbalance according to Bioware.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Nocadoj

[Yeochins]

You're confusing reaction time with prediction abilities.

 

In Starcraft you scout to gain information on what your opponent is doing in order to predict their movements as best as you can, and react based on those.

 

In FPS games you're shooting based on prediction of where your opponents will be.

 

There is a reaction time that goes into the above two examples, but you're reacting based on predictions to react quickly.

 

When dueling me, you don't know when i'm going to hit you with that setup, and more then likely i've stunned you before popping reckless/polarity shift, and while you're debating about hitting your CC breaker, i've just took out 6k from your health.

 

I can tell you're nowhere near Platinum/Diamond level in starcraft. If you don't think engagements are about reaction time to your units getting EMP'ed or changes in their unit positioning then you obviously aren't skilled.

 

In FPS games you react to to something coming around the corner. You have map awareness once you see them. Up until that point you have no map awareness. The people who are good at FPS'es can enter a room with no knowledge of what is waiting for them and react to enemy locations upon discovery. Quick-draw kills happen quite a bit in FPS'es.

 

I know exactly whats going to hit me in PvP. If you dont then you're a non-factor. You stunned me? Bad choice. If I see you popping recklessness (and it is very blatantly visible), as well as polarity shift I can already tell that you're one of the lightning tree baddies. I can even tell ahead of time by reading how you use affliction.

 

If you're not well versed in the other class rotations and damage dealing combo's then don't come here telling me I wont know how to shut-down your poorly blatant attempt at burst damage with a sorcerer.

[Thanatus]

Try 9k. These guilds are on my server, both of which are really good and all have full war hero gear

 

Yes, of course, the record high is around 10k but I'm talking more about regular dmg other classes make. Why for example can guardian/juggernaut hit me with 4-5k stun+dmg when its purpose is protection (and my biggest single hit with crit is around 3.5k); shouldn't DPS be dealing dmg? It seems I do anything but that (of course PVE is something different)

Edited July 27, 2012 by Thanatus

[Nocadoj]

Yes, of course, the record high is around 10k but I'm talking more about regular dmg other classes make. Why for example can guardian/juggernaut hit me with 4-5k stun+dmg when its purpose is protection (and my biggest single hit with crit is around 3.5k); shouldn't DPS be dealing dmg? It seems I do anything but that (of course PVE is something different)

 

It is poor class design.

[Ssfbistimg]

Yes, of course, the record high is around 10k but I'm talking more about regular dmg other classes make. Why for example can guardian/juggernaut hit me with 4-5k stun+dmg when its purpose is protection (and my biggest single hit with crit is around 3.5k); shouldn't DPS be dealing dmg? It seems I do anything but that (of course PVE is something different)

 

again I many times crit Force in Balance for 5k. If i use Force potency before i use FiB i very well can crit 3 people for 5K at same time.

[MidichIorian]

again I many times crit Force in Balance for 5k. If i use Force potency before i use FiB i very well can crit 3 people for 5K at same time.

Maybe with +850 force damage + recklessness on severely undergeared players. Go into a wz right now and do it! It's not like doing it on some other class where it can happen several times per game. I'm sitting on 825'ish force damage and I have recklessness macroed to death field but I have as far as I remember never hit 5K. I wouldnt even say that +4K hits are common, it's usually in the 3,8K area.

 

Add to this that it's a hella wonky ability to use while kiting.

Edited July 27, 2012 by MidichIorian

[Ssfbistimg]

Maybe with +850 force damage + recklessness on severely undergeared players. Go into a wz right now and do it! It's not like doing it on some other class where it can happen several times per game. I'm sitting on 825'ish force damage and I have recklessness macroed to death field but I have as far as I remember never hit 5K. I wouldnt even say that +4K hits are common, it's usually in the 3,8K area.

 

Add to this that it's a hella wonky ability to use while kiting.

 

i get 4K all the time. I will see 4k to 4.6k atleast 15 times a warzone and 5K crits like 3 times a warzone. I have 925 bonus damage. Im 7-3-31 spec so as to get the 10% bonus damage to my AOE. I use Stalker Gear to get the extra charge of force potency. Lol kiting. Im sorry I dont get into many 1 vs 1 in my warzones. I cant Kite 5 people trying to kill me. I just try and change locations in crowd.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Ssfbistimg

[djrobb]

I would have to say more burst damage would be nice.

 

But a side note I think a saber reflect CD would be awesome to have. Just think 3 maras and a PT come at you, you pop that and down they go lolsy.

 

but for real we need something to help us not be the red headed stepchild of RWZ.

[alexsamma]

I feel like sage healers need a reduced cast time on deliverance, or a buff to benevolence; having to stop and hard cast a 2+ second heal can be fatal to a class that depends on kiting.

 

I also think that the seer tree is designed around the AOE, which is useless against good teams, and unnecessary against bad teams.; there is a reason that the pvp spec for sages is seer/tele hybrid, and I honestly enjoy playing the hybrid spec more than full seer, but when my main heals are the bubble, rejuvenate (which is really only useful for the proc...), and the spec'd cleanse I feel like their is an issue. I do use benevolence and deliverance, but the time to cast/resource cost vs output combined with the fact that a good team can melt me if I stop moving makes them questionable.

 

Sage dps is just an odd bird, we're not designed for focus damage, but I think we bring a lot of utility to groups, so it's meh.

[MidichIorian]

I have 925 bonus damage. .

There. You're like super min/maxed in WH and basically a minority. Other classes can hit 5K in recruit/BM.

 

You're lucky if you don't have to kite, I'm not doing anything other than kiting all games. I will turn in to the main objective as soon as they spot me. I'm starting to think that there's more to it than just my class. Could be the guild tag.

Edited July 27, 2012 by MidichIorian

[Evil_Santa]

I can tell you're nowhere near Platinum/Diamond level in starcraft. If you don't think engagements are about reaction time to your units getting EMP'ed or changes in their unit positioning then you obviously aren't skilled.

 

In FPS games you react to to something coming around the corner. You have map awareness once you see them. Up until that point you have no map awareness. The people who are good at FPS'es can enter a room with no knowledge of what is waiting for them and react to enemy locations upon discovery. Quick-draw kills happen quite a bit in FPS'es.

 

I know exactly whats going to hit me in PvP. If you dont then you're a non-factor. You stunned me? Bad choice. If I see you popping recklessness (and it is very blatantly visible), as well as polarity shift I can already tell that you're one of the lightning tree baddies. I can even tell ahead of time by reading how you use affliction.

 

If you're not well versed in the other class rotations and damage dealing combo's then don't come here telling me I wont know how to shut-down your poorly blatant attempt at burst damage with a sorcerer.

 

 

http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1727821/EvilSanta/season/7

 

Trolling 1v1's is fun, but i gave up on the 1k wins with zerg after about 750. It would take me a few weeks of solid playing to get to Diamond in 1v1's though.

 

Anyways, you don't understand how human reactions work and that's ok. You're practically proving my point when you state that you "know everything about what imma be doing, based on me using affliction" You're making a prediction and then going to react based on that prediction - however right, or wrong, it is.

 

I'm not even going to go into how FPS games are actually played, since i used to gamecast them and am well versed in 1v1 strategies. You don't even know that twitch based gaming is part of the overall FPS picture, and that map/power-up control is more important then anything else, second to situational awareness and predicting where your opponent is going to be. Pro gamers fire rockets at spawn locations after they frag someone.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Evil_Santa

[Ssfbistimg]

There. You're like super min/maxed in WH and basically a minority. Other classes can hit 5K in recruit/BM.

 

You're lucky if you don't have to kite, I'm not doing anything other than kiting all games. I will turn in to the main objective as soon as they spot me. I'm starting to think that there's more to it than just my class. Could be the guild tag.

 

I agree they are all over me thats why im saying kiting is sort of silly when you are being attacked by 3 to 5 people. plus i cant trust my teammates enuff to leave the objective point even if for a second since I like to pug. In a 1 vs 1 I will kite all day. But I don't see the point in kitting when there are 3 or more enemies near me. Force speed is useless except in a 1 vs 1 situation. Everyone has Roots/Stuns. So i just more or less slow/root and move closer to a team mate and hope they pick someone off me.

[Daiyukie]

Maybe with +850 force damage + recklessness on severely undergeared players. Go into a wz right now and do it! It's not like doing it on some other class where it can happen several times per game. I'm sitting on 825'ish force damage and I have recklessness macroed to death field but I have as far as I remember never hit 5K. I wouldnt even say that +4K hits are common, it's usually in the 3,8K area.

 

Add to this that it's a hella wonky ability to use while kiting.

 

I got hit by an Assassin for 5796 on Death Field two days ago. Is yours that much crappier?

[Evil_Santa]

I got hit by an Assassin for 5796 on Death Field two days ago. Is yours that much crappier?

 

Assassins and Sorcs have different madness trees

[Ykicka]

the key to sorc/sage DPS is to move. It's really that simple they leap at you you move, they run after you you move...

 

Vs's Mara/ sents Always dot the living hell outta them, you have 3, always use force slow then force sprint get distance and pew pew them for the insta proc for Crushing Darkness, then bail once again. If your maddness always drop your death field on cd, even single target!

 

tbh it doesn't matter whether it's vs a mara/sent or any other class it's the same, you only stay in range to do what you gotta do to get insta procs then bam your on the move again. & tbh I've found stabby stabby ops & scroundrals to be more of a pain than sents/mara's.

 

 

 

at the end of the day the most annoying things I've found for a sorc is

 

A) Grav round from commando's (not the 1st one but the 2nd and 3rd ones I can't interupt)

B) Me being silly and not playing the way I should

C) Melee up in my face.

 

Can Sorc's /Sages do with some more burst? I wouldn't say no to it, but they have to be careful how they do it.

 

Can Sorcs / Sages do with some more defence to combat those pesky melee classes? Again I wouldn't say no to it, and again they need to careful how to impliment it, but we are a ranged class and should not expect the defences of those melee folk who are up in peoples faces all wf long.

 

Think of it like this.

 

Melee = Pawns on a chess board in the front lines,

Sorcs / Sages are the Bishops we hang back to play our role.

[MidichIorian]

I got hit by an Assassin for 5796 on Death Field two days ago. Is yours that much crappier?

What class are you and how were you geared at the time?

 

On another note, isnt it somewhat peculiar that the more melee'ish AC out of sorcs and shadows has the higher force lightning damage output, significally higher even? That's something I¨ll never understand.