Bioware - When are you going to fix the class imbalance in PvP?

[shegoy]

First, for all you haters out there, don't tell me I don't know how to play my class especially since you don't know what it is. This is not qq'ing, this is a fact. A majority of the classes in PvP now are either Sentinets, Marauders, Powertechs or Vanguards. Everyone knows that since the patch before last, that these classes are way to over-powered. Bioware - is this what you intended, just to have those classes in PvP? Because the other classes are dwindling away because they feel it's a waste of time going into a warzone, when you can get two or three shotted by one of these classes. Either nerf these classes or find that a majority of the people that didn't choose these classes wil quit the game because of an extreme imbalance in PvP.

 

Ok haters, provide a detailed explanation in your response, not just that I'm QQ'ing and don't know my class. Bring it on.

 

Here goes im not a Hater but i do believe your not completely correct the patch before last buffed marra/sent not Powertechs.

 

1.2 patch Notes :

 

Pyrotech (Powertech)

Prototype Particle Accelerator now requires Combustible Gas Cylinder to trigger. The chance to trigger this effect has been increased significantly but cannot trigger more than once every 6 seconds. ( this put a damper on Railshot spamming).

 

There is no reason why PT are more OP than prior to 1.2 legacy possibly the problem was either there all along or a result of other classes taking the nerf bat.

 

The patch itself and all successive patches following have not buffed in the slightest PT/Vangaurd Pyro/Assault specs ( the specs that are highly controversial in PVP).

Edited July 24, 2012 by shegoy

[Gidoru]

I have stated multiple time that I feel like they are definitely 2 of the strongest DPS classes but NOT greatly over powered.

 

If you admit that they are the 2 strongest DPS classes then they must be stronger than the other DPS classes in the game.

The goal of any game is to be fair and balanced where every class is equally powerful. Therefore you are necessary saying that Marauders and Powertechs are overpowered.

[Sinsavz]

I'll just quote myself

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=482234

top dmg, sorc

PT pyro, 4th

 

i guess we're all balanced, your job is done, BW!

 

and please, please, please, someone argue that must be because we have horrible PT on the server - that'd be awesome.

Well sorry but evidently you do have horrible PT's on that server. I have a PT guildie who I've seen do 900k+ plenty of times, he would fill all the top 5 DPS slots in your list by himself. And that's just the games I've seen, from one dude.

[UGLYMRJ]

Here is a list of your claims from this one post alone that can be considered claims that something is the case and not merely your opinion that it is.

1.They scream PT is OP since it's one of the easiest classes to play

2. however they just don't understand how to properly utilize the other classes in order to compare them in a logical manner.

1 & 2 was one sentence... and that's cute how you tried to make it 2 different points. You also left out the part where I started the sentence with "I think"

3. This is an MMO... it will never be perfectly balanced...

I would laugh if anyone can truly try to argue this...

4. Balance is a matter of perspective. Simple as that.

Oh... there's that word Perspective again... It definitely sounds like I'm trying to portray that statement as fact.... right?

 

Here are 4 claims you purport to be facts not opinions. This is just one post, shall i look through your others and do the same?

 

I'm not surprised by this at all... I see a ton of sorcs/sages putting up some impressive numbers. I think the imbalance calls come from players who are simply not top tier nor completely understand the mechanics of the game. They scream PT is OP since it's one of the easiest classes to play however they just don't understand how to properly utilize the other classes in order to compare them in a logical manner.

 

I would bet a 6 month sub that the majority of people calling for nerfs are not top tier players and that's where these nerf calls come from.

 

On the other end of that. This is an MMO... it will never be perfectly balanced... EVER! WoW has been out near 10 years... go to those forums and you'll see the same cries for nerfs. Balance is a matter of perspective. Simple as that.

 

Like I said earlier today.... just because it's ones opinion does not make it fact. Even if there are a lot of you on these forums. Millions of people believe scientology and the book of Mormon to be fact. Just because millions of people believe it to be true does that mean it's fact? No... that's called a perspective.

 

This is the reason nerf threads are so damn annoying to me.

 

Let's compare these quotes PROPERLY... I 'll edit yours for accuracy.

 

You can stop now... you're embarrassing yourself.

[UGLYMRJ]

If you admit that they are the 2 strongest DPS classes then they must be stronger than the other DPS classes in the game.

The goal of any game is to be fair and balanced where every class is equally powerful. Therefore you are necessary saying that Marauders and Powertechs are overpowered.

 

Wait for the next patch... and complain about the next class.

 

Welcome to MMO gaming.

[oredith]

So a class that uses a lot of aoe got top damage? Oh no. Too bad PTs come close or beat that damage with mostly single target.

Also your server must be pretty bad as those numbers are low.

so, you're ignoring the 2 OTHER single target dps that are doing more than the PT on that same post?

 

cherry picking?

 

how about YOU back up what you're claiming, with some post 1.3 numbers (post adrenal nerf, which is what all the numbers from my linked thread are).

[oredith]

Well sorry but evidently you do have horrible PT's on that server. I have a PT guildie who I've seen do 900k+ plenty of times, he would fill all the top 5 DPS slots in your list by himself. And that's just the games I've seen, from one dude.

 

perfect, i'm sure you have (or can easily get) plenty of screen shots then.

[Gidoru]

And I love this edit even more... thank you for making yourself look like even more of a fool.

 

You mean factual information like the numbers and statistics recorded from each server to determine if the classes are performing on par with each other???

 

You mean something like THAT factual information.... Yeah... I sure wish Bioware would have something like that.

 

I am making myself look like a fool and yet you are clearly incapable of understanding the subtlies of the english language?

 

You made this statement that opinions are not necessary facts. This is generalized statement that all opinions are not necessary facts, not just those opinions presented on the forums and about SWTOR.

 

To this i responded that while it is true that opinions are not necessary facts, they can also be based on facts and therefore have truth value. Once again, my response is a generalized statement that refers to opinions in general and not just those presented on the forums.

I made this statement because you seemed to be suggesting that any opinions can merely be dismissed, given that they are not necessarly factual.

 

Having laid this out, you now proceed to note specific types of anecdotal evidence that people usually provide on this forum and imply that i was somehow affirming the truth and credibility of such evidence. I however made no mention or reference in my original argument to these types of evidence as being factual information. My statements refered only to general opinions. It is you who drew completely unwarranted and ridiculous implications from my statements.

 

So you not only lack reading comprehnsion, but a basic understanding of the english language. Clearly i am the fool.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Gidoru

[UGLYMRJ]

Well sorry but evidently you do have horrible PT's on that server. I have a PT guildie who I've seen do 900k+ plenty of times, he would fill all the top 5 DPS slots in your list by himself. And that's just the games I've seen, from one dude.

 

I've got a sorc in my guild that will do the same... top damage all day... or top heals. Whatever he specs.

 

Key words there are ONE DUDE. There are so many bad sorcs, bad PT's, bad everything. I feel like the main difference is it's much easier to be a good PT since the class is pretty damn easy to play from my experience when compared to other DPS classes.

 

So your boasts about one good PT in your guild doesn't say much...

 

And anyone else that wants to bring up my old posts. (Gidoru) Why don't we bring up the one DPS merc and sorc in my guild that I use for example over and over. Top DPS all day.... if they can do it... well then, it's most likely a L2P. Only difference I see is that the PT is just easier to L2P.

 

Btw... these guys are still wearing a lot of BM gear.

[Gidoru]

Wait for the next patch... and complain about the next class.

 

Welcome to MMO gaming.

 

I see, so rather than address my argument in any substantive or meaningful way, you attempt to deflect by typing out some irrelevant and off topic information. Nice.

[skotish]

Ugly is getting L2played ahahah

[UGLYMRJ]

I am making myself look like a fool and yet you are clearly incapable of understanding the subtlies of the english language?

 

You made this statement that opinions are not necessary facts. This is generalized statement that all opinions are not necessary facts, not just those opinions presented on the forums and about SWTOR.

 

To this i responded that while it is true that opinions are not necessary facts, they can also be based on facts and therefore have truth value. Once again, my response is a generalized statement that refers to opinions in general and not just those presented on the forums.

I made this statement because you seemed to be suggesting that any opinions can merely be dismissed, given that they are not necessarly factual.

 

Having laid this out, you now proceed to note specific types of anecdotal evidence that people usually provide on this forum and imply that i was somehow affirming the truth and credibility of such evidence. I however made no mention or reference in my original argument to these types of evidence as being factual information. My statements refered only to general opinions. It is you who drew completely unwarranted and ridiculous implications from my statements.

 

So you not only lack reading comprehnsion, but a basic understanding of the english language. Clearly i am the fool.

 

 

1. If you're going to try to sound smarter than me.... spell check.

 

2. YOU were the one who came after me and started twisting my words.... don't be upset that I called you out and made you look silly. The solution is simple. Just don't try to attack me again. It's a losing battle.

Edited July 24, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[Sinsavz]

perfect, i'm sure you have (or can easily get) plenty of screen shots then.

 

I don't screenshot other peoples numbers funnily enough , but why would I lie? Do you think Pt's aren't capable of consistently pushing out 900k+?

 

Here's a DPS one I found of another guy though, who I'm pretty sure is not even full war hero yet. 1453 DPS. The highest on your server by anyone was 1085..

 

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g158/leesolo/dpsclear.jpg

[UGLYMRJ]

I see, so rather than address my argument in any substantive or meaningful way, you attempt to deflect by typing out some irrelevant and off topic information. Nice.

 

My point is... and always has been. That there will never be a perfectly balanced MMO so these nerf threads and all the crying done over them are useless. Why don't you pull up my many comments and find that about 50 times. I've said it over and over and it's the only reason I comment on these threads and THAT is fact! Statistically and mathematically it is impossible. And speaking of the SUBTLETIES of the English language... you obviously missed my point in my last comment. Maybe this here will break it down into terms you can understand...

 

There is no way to balance an MMO where everyone will agree it is balanced.... impossible. No matter how you look at it. Look at the last 6 months, the "balance" has shifted so many times already, damn near with every patch. Every class will get it's turn and it's not the crying on the forums that get's that accomplished... it's the developers constant battle for NEAR balance. So it shifts from class to class.

 

So... these threads are useless. Roll a class you enjoy and wait your turn to be moderately above average.

Edited July 24, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[oredith]

I don't screenshot other peoples numbers funnily enough , but why would I lie? Do you think Pt's aren't capable of consistently pushing out 900k+?

 

Here's a DPS one I found of another guy though, who I'm pretty sure is not even full war hero yet. 1453 DPS. The highest on your server by anyone was 1085..

 

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g158/leesolo/dpsclear.jpg

it was only 500k dmg, meaning the dps is pure burst, and without a full SS, we can't tell what wz its in (looks like VS), nor if it was pre 1.3 nerf (which i'm sure it was). we can't see how badly the other group was, if they were all in pve gear.

 

basically, your strategically cropped SS is useless.

 

and why would we want to see SS? the simple truth? because i think you're a fanboi liar and would love to be proven wrong?

[Gidoru]

1 & 2 was one sentence... and that's cute how you tried to make it 2 different points. You also left out the part where I started the sentence with "I think" .

A single sentence can have multiple points or arguments. Your sentence did infact have two seperate points. Given that i was counting your total number of claims, and this sentence had two, i fail to see the problem. The fact that you are unaware of this suggests to me that you are not very educated and do not understand english very well.

You also left out the part where I started the sentence with "I think" .

False, you started the sentence prior to that one with I think. Good to know you do not even know what a sentence is.

^I would laugh if anyone can truly try to argue this... .

What does this have to do with the fact that this is purported to be factual and not an opinion. Where is your evidence that this is the case. Unless you can prove that this is true, you are making a baseless claim.

Oh... there's that word Perspective again... It definitely sounds like I'm trying to portray that statement as fact.... right? .

The word perspective refers to balance. It does not indicate that the entire sentence is your perspective or opinion. Once again learn basic english.

 

Let's compare these quotes PROPERLY... I 'll edit yours for accuracy.

 

You can stop now... you're embarrassing yourself.

Please go back to school or take some english courses, because honestly you are embarassing yourself.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Gidoru

[Temeluchus]

 

The reason Sentinel/Marauder and Vanguard/Powertech classes are over-powered is because they are relatively easy to play so it's simpler to produce higher numbers. Hence if someone is bad at playing Sentinel compared to someone bad at playing Guardian, the Sentinel will produce higher damage just because of the simplicity of its rotation. I started to play Sentinel>Watchmen spec to see what all the fuss was about and I found myself doing a very high amount of damage with so few abilities compared to other DPS classes I played. Their combination of burns, self-heals, and defensive cooldowns allowed me to solo Heroics above my level (with help from a ~360 Presence companion) because I could last just long enough and do enough damage to kill the toughest of enemies. When playing my Operative or Gunslinger I couldn't defeat two Elites on my level without my companion dying after burning all my cooldowns. This ease makes it so advanced players who really know their class could greatly excel on the battlefield making it the class "OP." I recently ran a Story Mode Explosive Conflict on my Rakata/Black Hole geared Gunslinger>Sharpshooter and we had our tank respec to Assault. He was wearing full Battlemaster armor and still hitting about 40k higher than me on the parser at then end of each encounter. He knows how to play the class very well so it permits him to produce very high numbers even when not in the proper gear.

 

TL;DR I don't think the classes need a nerf but more so a re-working to make their play-style either a bit more complex or a bit slower to fully execute a complete rotation. Sure a nerf is simpler but it's not nearly as fun.

 

The underlined part made me laugh and then stop reading. PTs might be easy/easier than some classes, but Sent/Maras have more keybinds than others classes/ACs by a large margin and also have to manage Rage and Fury stacks.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Temeluchus

[Sinsavz]

it was only 500k dmg, meaning the dps is pure burst, and without a full SS, we can't tell what wz its in (looks like VS), nor if it was pre 1.3 nerf (which i'm sure it was). we can't see how badly the other group was, if they were all in pve gear.

 

basically, your strategically cropped SS is useless.

 

and why would we want to see SS? the simple truth? because i think you're a fanboi liar and would love to be proven wrong?

 

I didn't crop it, thats how it was on the forum I found it, You seem really angry and tense, chill out a little.

 

It was 4 days ago, not pre 1.3.

 

I find it funny how you say "it was pure burst", as if that's not the most important damn thing in pvp DPS?!

 

Man some people are absolutely DESPERATE for their class not to get nerfed..this place is worrying.

[oredith]

I didn't crop it, thats how it was on the forum I found it, You seem really angry and tense, chill out a little.

 

It was 4 days ago, not pre 1.3.

 

I find it funny how you say "it was pure burst", as if that's not the most important damn thing in pvp DPS?!

 

Man some people are absolutely DESPERATE for their class not to get nerfed..this place is worrying.

angry and tense? if that makes you feel better about yourself, then sure, that's me!

 

4 days ago? sure, link that too. i'd love to see it and question the person who posted it.

 

DPS by definition depends on the duration of the fight. anyone can burst 2k DPS over 30 seconds, but it gets to be hard to maintain that over 15 minutes. that's why the background matters.

 

it's good that you're completely avoiding the aspect of providing some sort of evidence (screen shot) of you and your friend, showing that you have the slightest incline to what reality is though, rather than just parroting what others have rumored before you.

[foxmob]

. Commandos and Mercenaries also still hit really hard in either of their DPS specs if played correctly.

 

complete bs. commando/merc dps has nothing to do with how one plays them (they are ridiculously easy "rotations" in both dps specs). their dps numbers depend entirely on whether or not (anyone on) the opposing team thinks that they're threatening enough to shutdown. they're gimped to high heaven. they have no interrupts. their core abilities and procs all depend on casts that are easily interrupted, and any vanguard/mara/op will have uncorked 4 attacks for every 1 from a commando/merc.

 

I disagree with the op in that assassins are highly valuable pvpers and both ops and sorcs are popular healers. yeah. vans/sents are a little too far ahead of the other dpsers, but what really needs to change is to ungimp some of the others.

[Sinsavz]

angry and tense? if that makes you feel better about yourself, then sure, that's me!

 

4 days ago? sure, link that too. i'd love to see it and question the person who posted it.

 

DPS by definition depends on the duration of the fight. anyone can burst 2k DPS over 30 seconds, but it gets to be hard to maintain that over 15 minutes. that's why the background matters.

 

it's good that you're completely avoiding the aspect of providing some sort of evidence (screen shot) of you and your friend, showing that you have the slightest incline to what reality is though, rather than just parroting what others have rumored before you.

Was gonna go dig for those screenshots, then I checked your post history and realised you're a 50 pyro pt who has only just done 500k damage :D Absolutely wasting my time talking to someone so uniformed and inexperienced on the subject, daym. I genuinely thought you might be serious player who can't see that powertech damage is insane, but I'll put that down to naivety on your part then.

 

Come back when you know more about the top level gameplay. Until then, you really shouldn't try to voice your opinion so loudly.

[oredith]

Was gonna go dig for those screenshots, then I checked your post history and realised you're a 50 pyro pt who has only just done 500k damage :D Absolutely wasting my time talking to someone so uniformed and inexperienced on the subject, daym. I genuinely thought you might be serious player who can't see that powertech damage is insane, but I'll put that down to naivety on your part then.

 

Come back when you know more about the top level gameplay. Until then, you really shouldn't try to voice your opinion so loudly.

ahh.. another "i'm more experienced because i took 5x longer to learn the same lesson" type of guy.

 

i've pvp'd for 2 weeks.

 

if you can't argue with solid numbers, go back to the kiddie pool.

 

i'm pulling 500k in BM gear, solo queuing, without a healer, in a pug.

 

where's your SS of you doing better? that's how you measure if you know more than me, right?

[Sinsavz]

ahh.. another "i'm more experienced because i took 5x longer to learn the same lesson" type of guy.

 

i've pvp'd for 2 weeks.

 

if you can't argue with solid numbers, go back to the kiddie pool.

 

i'm pulling 500k in BM gear, solo queuing, without a healer, in a pug.

 

where's your SS of you doing better? that's how you measure if you know more than me, right?

 

This is exactly my point, you've pvp'd for 2 weeks. You do not understand the balance right at the top of the game. Anyone can do decent damage in pug games, especially a pyro pt.

 

So how are you doing in rated warzones? What's your win loss ratio?

 

I'm not trying to insult you or call you bad, brag about my own skills or damage. What I'm saying is that you just don't realise the difference between say, a PT and a Merc in the rated warzone environment where everyone is full augmented war hero with voice coms for quick target focus and a high skill level amongst every single player. Where PT blows Merc out of the frigging water to the extent that Merc DPS are not even welcome in a ranked team anymore.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Sinsavz

[Gidoru]

^My point is... and always has been. That there will never be a perfectly balanced MMO so these nerf threads and all the crying done over them are useless.

1. Since you like to point out spelling and grammar mistakes, i find it funny that you have a fragmented sentence and split what should have been a single sentence into two.

2. There is no way to verify whether or not this claim is true as you have niether played every MMO that exists today nor have you played every MMO that will exist in the future. Furthermore the concept balance is somewhat ambigious where MMOs are concerned.

^ Statistically and mathematically it is impossible.

Really are you a statistician or mathematician? IHave you done work to determine this? If so id really like to see it, in fact why dont you just post it for everyone here to see?

 

^And speaking of the SUBTLETIES of the English language... you obviously missed my point in my last comment. Maybe this here will break it down into terms you can understand...

 

There is no way to balance an MMO where everyone will agree it is balanced.... impossible.

Since you seem to be implying here that balance requires a concensus, I would like to point out that this is entirely false. Things do not need a concensus in order for them to be true or for them to be the case. The fact that you seem to think that a concensus has anything to do with truth is quite frankly laughable.

^No matter how you look at it. Look at the last 6 months, the "balance" has shifted so many times already, damn near with every patch. Every class will get it's turn and it's not the crying on the forums that get's that accomplished... it's the developers constant battle for NEAR balance. So it shifts from class to class.

So... these threads are useless. Roll a class you enjoy and wait your turn to be moderately above average.

This is fallcious reasoning. Simply because something has not happened, does not mean it will never happen.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Gidoru

[foxmob]

Merc DPS are not even welcome in a ranked team anymore.

 

this is very true. I don't see many dps ops either. slingers/snipers are there. iunno what's up with the commandos. they're the only AC I know of that is the least desirable in every possible role.