The bottom line is no matter how you want to dress this up it is EA that will cross the line there starting to do it with all their online games EA itself is endorsing more and more F2P games especially browser games for example Command & Conquer Tiberium Alliances , Battlefield Play 4 Free etc now those games are understandably made purely on a F2P model however EA have been forcing this model onto some if not all of their other On-line titles especially BF3 where its almost Pay to win purchasing the game and paying for expansions was not enough now you are basically forced to pay another £30-£40 on premium membership with loads of perks that put you at an advantage if you can afford it not to mention you bypass all the hard work required to unlock items if you can afford to it's a joke. What should make us think EA will break the mould exclusively for SWTOR?

I warned of this the moment there was a hint of F2P and i was shot down by a protest that it was only free trial haha i was right after all. Initially what seems now to be a definite separation between subscribers getting all and F2P player being limited etc, however like many games before, as the F2P experiment gains popularity that line will quickly get thinner due to major expansion into micro transactions and loss of subs to F2P and BW resorting to easing off restrictions. Not to mention there will come a time where even subscribers are going to have to pay more than their sub in order to have everything and be competitive with each other. Those who defend BW due to being self proclaimed SW fans, that's what BW have put all their chips on that you will blindly follow them into the abyss with this project all in the name of George Lucas and the SW's Universe. Eventually even you people will realize turning something into a turd with SW's branding on it aint going to cut the buck, but if not well that's your choice no one can make it for you.

Thats what im doing i love the BH class it suits my play-style i shelved my Merc arsenal spec until they get some sort of adjustment made to even things out a little so no choice but play a PT Pyro.

Here goes im not a Hater but i do believe your not completely correct the patch before last buffed marra/sent not Powertechs. 1.2 patch Notes : Pyrotech (Powertech) Prototype Particle Accelerator now requires Combustible Gas Cylinder to trigger. The chance to trigger this effect has been increased significantly but cannot trigger more than once every 6 seconds. ( this put a damper on Railshot spamming). There is no reason why PT are more OP than prior to 1.2 legacy possibly the problem was either there all along or a result of other classes taking the nerf bat. The patch itself and all successive patches following have not buffed in the slightest PT/Vangaurd Pyro/Assault specs ( the specs that are highly controversial in PVP).

Like iv said many times to these threads i would happily trade some burst and all my taunts if only for better survivability. For a Nerf to burst and DPS alone would break the spec without sufficient trade off in that respect. Pyro have no escape mechanism or variable defence cd's associated with other DPS it's an all in or bust situation. Gunnery/Arsenal spec on Mercs and commando took a fair hit and left them squishy as hell and now under represented because people think it is no longer a viable PVP spec. PT pyro's share the same defensive abilities except we don't have a knock back as the above and would ultimately share the same fate although i admit the above have it much worse due their lack of mobility or lack of.

Yes part of a full picture and only a part , if we where to say nerf PT Pyro and Marauders are we guaranteed not to have more than 2 of a certain class show up regularly... ? No it doesn't always work that way in fact that would mean another class/spec would possibly become over represented and start the cycle again. I flipping hate people quoting from post WZ reports that do not provide the full picture in the first place and people who do not take the time to enable combat logging but still insist their version of events and theory's are correct regardless. I would love to be able to have for once a time where one of these threads are equally constructive and not biased and we can dissect combat logs etc to build up a proper picture of what areas if any need to be adjusted/fixed

It's boring for them to hang around only getting a few hundred defense points now and again especially when the majority really want to be noticed on the leader board with kills and get shiny medals = more commendations. The PVP system stinks in that sense favoring those who are in the thick of it over those poor souls trying to play the objective and defend their cap.

The people have only truthfully figured what is best in their own interests. People have also not done the math etc because we are still lacking anything but end of match screenshot's wheres the combat logs/ data to support ? The only conclusive info is the people's ability to QQ " i cant kill this class or die to quickly, there are too many in Rated WZ's that says they are OP threads. You have to honest with yourself the majority of the community does very little in helping BW help us, we fail regularly to back up with anything other than personal experience, then we believe ignoring threads discussing the subject already and create more duplicate posts all over the forums just to vent our frustration and not being constructive in the slightest in the process just because our plight wasn't center of attention.

I play a PT Pyro in the 10-49 bracket and although i frequently hit the top of the leader board for DPS at lvl 40, in no sense do i feel im greatly influencing the outcome of a WZ. On average i tend to not have a problem in 1v1 situations unless up against another pyro or assualt vanguard who gets the jump on me and merc commando healers. The concept that even a monkey can play this class makes me laugh, people talk about grapple and slow preventing them from kiting us it takes a smart pyro to resist the temptation to pop grapple off to start a fight too many times iv been grappled by fellow pyro/assualt on an opener only for me to successfully kite them to their doom because they have blown the main gcd to close the gap when i stun and run. Healer's chain healing each other is another issue in PVP the amount of times iv ran into brick walls because i cannot take ether one down but merely distract them, take away burst and Healers will once again rule PVP. Armour is irrelevant in PVP due to the over reliance of internal/elemental damage favored in pvp by many AC's wanting to be competitive due to its armor avoiding nature in most cases it is Internal/elemental bleed effects that are OP and not the AC's using them because they are the silent killers no one notices. I went 1v1 with a Gunslinger last night and i applaud him/her for their handling of the situation they apparently knew my class as well as they knew their own and gave me a run for my money i found myself stunned i broke it to face another then slowed couldn't grapple as he/she where bunkered down found myself down to 30% health before being finished off by one of his team m8's who came to his aid. The only time i feel i have sufficient up-time to gather big DPS numbers is stalking the fringes looking for people isolated on their own and maximizing my up-time, the minute i try to lead a charge or mix into the fray im down faster than a blink of an eyelid i think the community exaggerates the actual survivability of a PT Pyro we effectively gain very little if anything defensive wise from a supposed tank class that you claim , Shield Tech and AP offer those options due to Hydraulic overrides for AP etc. We have the same defensive cool downs if not less than a Mercenary Pyro due to them having a knock back and healing abilities we get better burst as a trade off. Prove to me other than the ability to taunt that doesn't effect us anyway what makes us Pyro's able to tank/ absorb/ deflect more damage than Pure DPS AC's in PVP, I look like a tank i may think im a tank at times but in all fairness i am anything but a Tank and would happily trade all of my taunts and some of my DPS for better defense.

BW gave us Combat logs for more than just admiring our own DPS output. I would like to see more people actually making these type of threads based off facts and gathered data. All we can take from the original post was you encountered 2 PT's one must have been Pyro as you recall receiving a Thermal Detonator to the head and that's about it as far as fact goes you are assuming and expecting others to assume your plight was unjustifiable off the back of the general feeling Pro/Assault are OP. The community needs to dissect your combat log to even get a glimpse of truly what went on in those few seconds you claim to have lived for. Can i make a note to everyone who wants to make a similar claim on what is wrong and what isn't by enabling combat logging and backing up your claims with more than speculation. If you fail to do that you have as much weight in your argument as someone apposing a change on PTS notes and kicking up a stink on the forums without even taking the time in testing the content yourself and gathering the facts.

My first character was a Merc and since iv had a PT Pyro It would appear from cross referencing it is mobility itself that is gimping the class, with both specced Pyro this is the defining difference between the classes they both have the same defensive abilities the 25% reduction in damage shield, you have a knock back that does very little in giving you sufficient breathing space as a DPS to get a rotation going . Your survivability is linked to your mobility standing around having to channel an ability or wait for cast time is leaving you a sitting duck as is for sorcs and any other static caster but you do a fraction of their total damage output. A PT's attacks are almost all instant allowing the class to operate on the move, PPA procs off an insta flame burst or rocket punch where mercs need two seconds of charging up a powershot or channel an unload to gain the same effect and gain a chance of a free railshot. More mobility should be offered to mercs not involved directly in Healing it would be a different case if DPS mercs could keep up but because they don't i feel the extra mobility in the DPS tree's could alleviate the problem.

The problem here is BW Nerfed and buffed classes before dealing with the actual causes of the imbalance in the first place making things worse by refusing to accept a need to revise and back pedal on some of those changes. whatever metrics they used ( as they so far do not want to disclose the factors and formula they use to justify changes they make in fear of having their results challenged) did not take into effect where the real problems lay for example Operatives appearing OP because of a screw up with Rakata stims offering too much surge, Sorc healers also exceeding because of same reason and an additional force bending bug that allowed us to double dip it and benefit 2 abilities rather than one and similar bugs in the DPS trees made them destroy hybrids etc Im pretty sure and although this is only speculation without evidence that if the metrics where run without the above factors and whatever other bugs classes had that where present before the nerfs and buffs we would have been possibly facing a different result when it came to viability. In fact in some cases they really screwed some classes with their metric fixes Mercs lost barrage procs for a while and the reigning in of the radius of death from above meant centering it over a group of mobs left you with only getting one tic of damage off due to the first tic knocking all mobs out of radius of the remaining procs, well at least they back pedaled on that one.

I play a Pyro PT as an alt and tbh skill does play apart as well as situational awareness and teamwork in being successful winning WZ's is not about kills,damage etc. Success is based on objectives If the members of your team cannot apply themselves correctly and in a way that compliments each other you will fail. I have yet to have found a situation where i could just mindlessly charge into a group of people spamming my so called easy kill rotation and not die within a few seconds. If i try to take down healers against a good team they close in and defend that healer The community has already found away to balance out things already every-time i show my face with my flame icon im focused down to keep me out of the fight iv now become a 3-4 sec meat-shield for my team so that appears to be my new role currently to form a distraction for my team as i have no real defensive capability 25% damage reduction gives me an extra second or two under heavy assault. And honestly if that is what i have to do now then so be it i don't care about my skill rating etc i aim to support my team in the best way possible to get a win not lone wolf it ,there is no gratification in me hitting big numbers and leading the board when my team fails and everyone's complaining in ops chat how s... we are

Reduce DPS if you want in return we require more defensive options in the trade off . because as it stands now we have to have burst to kill anything we engage or anything that engages us as there is no way to back out of a fight for PT/Vangaurd once its started It's a kill or be killed scenario unlike most other classes who have some form of exit strategy at their disposal. The views of everyone claiming to balance this class with a DPS reduction and offering no real proper trade off to keep the class viable in combat shows me how Narrow minded and insensitive to overall balance most of you all are. In my eyes as having a PT Pyro myself is if there really is a requirement to soften our damage capability BW might as well do away with the concept of a pure offensive tree in the Tank AC's , Improve viability of full tanking specs in PVP other than having them as dedicated huttball carriers making them more attractive outside of PVE, and creating a new offensive tank tree specializing in offering lower dps than before but inherit more defensive capability in the trade off , do away with shared trees whats the point sharing a tree with another AC when the other can take fuller advantage of that tree,the tree's should be unique to their AC As it stands now PT pyro inherits grapple and taunts from Tank AC and very little else it does not even have the off-tanking capability in PVE due to its lack of any real defense measures. You can say but this is PVP not PVE well yeah however BW do not change things in half measures whatever effects PVP inevitably effects PVE and vice versa . Id much rather see a better use for a so called PT or other tanking dps spec who given tanking abilities such as taunt and grapple etc regardless has a more specialized role than taking up either a tanking or DPS role. That way there is not a feeling of your supposed to be a tank not a proper DPS you shouldn't be able to that as well as DPS etc.

Offence forms allot of a PT pyro's defence Nerf our Dps if you please but give us defensive abilities in return PT Pyro is pure Offensive spec and the trade off was no real defensive capability even other DPS like maras and snipers have a few at their disposal especially more so the snipers.

Yet again your overreacting a little Stun break is on 120 sec cd follow up with a mezz and you can get away you assume that everything you encounter on the field you can kill, our interrupt is a 4m ability so cannot be done at range grapple itself unlike sith warriors force leap doesn't do a 1 sec stun unaffected by resolve and grapple is on a 45 sec cd so how unfortunate are you to find yourself up against a pyro with all gcd off id take a 50% slow over a stun followed by a mezz anyday. Powertech pyro/ Vanguard assualt are pure offensive specs with very limited defensive capability as the trade off on the other hand snipers and marauders have the best of both worlds more so Snipers. so any form of reducing our damage would require providing more defensive capability to these specs to balance the table.

Putting flame burst on a cd without reworking the heat/ammo system would lead to a heat management imbalance effectively making them have much better up time as spamming flame burst is the big over heater with railshot proc having now an internal cd of 6 sec to proc and so reduce heat by 8 its an overreaction to assume we can spam railshot it requires a 45% chance from flame burst and 60% from Rocket punch that itself is on a 9 sec cd and only then were limited to a once every 6 sec chance if we meet the criteria to proc it, leaving us with spamming flame burst and overheating in the process. Secondly putting a cd on the slow effect exclusively cripples PT/Vanguard unlike most classes especially pyro spec mercs these classes do not have a mezz and any form of cc is of rather short duration electro dart 4 sec on 60 sec cd, carbonise Aoe stun 2sec duration on 45 sec cd, flame burst talented gives 50% slow 2 sec all effected by the resolve system. In low lvl pvp that makes playing these classes even more un viable with only a 4 sec stun that can be broken out of and a 2 sec 50% slow you want to put on cd, you cant use carbonise until lvl 46. Any changes made have to take into consideration the viability of the class spec throughout the level brackets of 10-49 not just 50 as it very well could have a domino effect on other aspects of gameplay.

Has the Creator of this thread checked the forum before making this thread ? There are already a good few threads discussing this stuff making another just to keep this topic at the top of the forum is pointless and will only end in trolling. PT's took a nerf back in 1.2 when the QQ was about sorcs and tracer spamming mercs Pyrotech (Powertech) Prototype Particle Accelerator now requires Combustible Gas Cylinder to trigger. The chance to trigger this effect has been increased significantly but cannot trigger more than once every 6 seconds. ( that effected the use of Rail shot our biggest hitter) Apparently people are more upset now than before with PT/Vanguards, with no apparent buff to the class. Stop making Threads that offer no insight to what exactly is wrong with the classes you complain of, making a plain Nerf this thread is idiotic and deserves a good trolling. people make these posts thinking BW will agree with them with enough weight behind them it doesn't matter how many people agree with you because it requires a healthy debate with two sides present cross referencing gathered data before BW can then go back and use that data to weigh up what is acceptable and what is not.

Healers in numbers in a WZ are a problem due to cross healing each-other which probably fuelled the QQ about them in the past by them keeping themselves alive whilst stil offering heals to team m8's you need Maras/PTs because they are the only ones with burst strong enough to shut healers down

Were here basing our opinions off total dps/ class/spec numbers. What about all the other factors can we assume all the other classes involved in the matches have their gear and stats optimised to the best it can be in regard to everyone involved? are these so called OP classes breaking the damage board with sub par gear stats , Are healers being marked and focus dropped making them appear to be more squishy than they are? No we cant unless someone sets up an experiment to gather full data including class/spec numbers gear and stat break downs for each class involved who did what damage, who was being healed and buffed etc. I have a lvl 32 PT Pyro who iv levelled up through PVP, and although i can be in the top 3 damage dealer wise if im left alone to single out targets, the leader board itself doesn't show the full picture. I don't personally feel my sole contribution is capable of turning the tide of a battle against competent player/s that know what their doing and have good teamwork and i surely don't have an easy time attempting to either, Sorc healers can be my easiest targets however i can struggle to take down a Commando Healer by locking him out of his heal rotation it becomes impossible if he is being supported, un-supported myself i go down pretty quickly the minute the flame icon above my head is spotted im focused down and dead within 3-4 sec. There are two sides to every Argument and until you can broaden your mind as too look outside of the tunnel vision you have acquired against the damage dealing capability and numbers and see the factors that make up that damage and why that person was allowed to accumulate such numbers i.e being ignored on the battlefield as you where all focusing on healers etc, maybe his survivability was exceptional along with his dps due to him being supported with heals,shielded etc. the one thing we can not record from stating numbers is team play and strategy I don't worry about the total damage done at the end of the match any more as it does not reflect mine or anyone else's contribution to playing the objective and prefer to give my nomination of MVP to the best healer or objective/protection score and so do not see myself as a pvp breaking class either as WZ's are won based on objectives rather than damage dealt, i too have many bad days in pvp and it will be the same at 50, it has all to do with the competence and teamwork of the opponents i face.

Well done the person above We too easily get tunnel vision and take things for face value without understanding all the factors. All it takes is a bit of misinformation or lack of clarity on gathered facts a few others who share our view and a witch hunt begins.

So what next? we all roll your main pvp class/spec and get it nerfed to the ground also then you rage and come on here defending your class just like us. Like peace, Balance is a lie you may get close to it through years of tweaking that Bioware haven't had time to do yet but in the end you will never fully achieve it. Balance is where were all playing the same class and spec and it only takes one person to be different and roll another class and were all OP again lol. So whilst your here today expressing your sarcasm and objections to certain classes a few months down the line you will be on the opposite side of the argument defending your class and possibly becoming one of the migrants searching for the next best thing, so good luck with that.

I still happily play my full 31 corruption sorc in PVP after the constant QQ made about our easy life although i believe it falls down to how many of each class and spec is present rather than it being OP Imagine if their was lots of PT shieldtech's on a team the majority of your pvp warzones we would all be complaining how OP they where stomping around together firing taunts everywhere reducing our dps and shoveling in protection medals not to mention taking vital people off objectives to try and focus down just handful of them. Nerfing a class just because the view is they are too popular for whatever reasons you predict will not fix balance like the above mentioned people will just re-roll to the next best thing that offers them enjoyment and start the cycle again. Let's face it people you wont be on the offensive when it's your class that becomes the target for over populated class/spec of the month and you become the next target for community complaints, and by the way this community behaves every class is going to suffer no matter how balanced you think your class/spec is

There's too much flaming of the OP for at least trying to record numbers here, at least he has taken the time to form an argument based on some facts if even they in some eyes are flawed and could do with more info. Every one else wants to just QQ that class is OP because i and others say so Bioware will not listen to you until you give them them the data to support your argument and that's a fact. Some people's arguments in this thread are rather narrow minded and ill informed, If your trying to take down a PT/Vanguard their taunts dont work on themselves, switching cylinders to guard somebody in pyro/assault takes them out of the fight dps wise and can't be done in combat. Heavy Armor my backside, internal elemental dmg dodges armor there's allot of those forms around and mostly every class has access to a tree with it. pyro and Assault go down in seconds when focused and that's what you should be doing letting them roam free and causing havoc on the sidelines of course leads to upset because they can 1v1 quite well, iv met my match a goof few times against jedi guardians who can put up a good fight and drop me if they get the advantage.

It's starting to get really frustrating lately to see people join a pug group for HM FP's through the group finder and Ninja roll need on Items they themselves cant use for their class and another party member needed the item just because the other person wanted it for their companion. I just experienced a BT run where a marauder rolled need and so did a sniper on Columi bracers for an agent and the marauder won the roll it left the sniper furious and i don't blame him either, especially since the marauder was very rude and had the cheek to explain "if you want to gear up group with your guild or friends, i don't even know you so why should i pass when my companion can use it" Change the Loot system please so a party member who can use an item for his/her class get's priority if he/her rolls need for the item and provides a fair roll otherwise we might as well change the name of the Group finder to Ninja Loot Finder.