Soooo.. GW2 is coming and you do nothing to keep the PvP-Players here?

[Skolops]

Your personal opinion has no bearing on this. The problem is whoever had this happened will call up the game company + EBay + whatever and threaten to sue them. Despite a lot of people thinking EULA signs away your first born and all your rights, usually the game company will attempt to resolve this (and they've actually lost in court in some countries when they tried to ignore the customers). The biggest cost for a MMORPG developer is the human capital, since those guys answering your calls still has to be paid even if it's minimum wage. If you yelled at some minimum wage guy for 2 hours demeanding your $200 sword fund that's 2 hours X minimum wage lost to the game comapny since that guy could be used to solve some other issues. Now multiply by all the guys who do RMT and that can quickly go way up.

 

It's the same way why WoW wants you to buy an authenticator because while they shouldn't be responsible for your account, what invariably happens is when your account gets hacked you call them and blame it on Blizzard and yell at their guys for 2 hours, and that's 2 hours their CR has to spend dealing with you instead of something else. Although losing your account because you downloaded some malware is literally not their fault, it'll still cost them money because they'd be expected to at least talk to you when it happens and time is money to them as well. So just as authenticators reduces cost by eliminating calls related to account thefts, in game currency eliminates calls related to dispute over RMT, because if the game allows it at least the chance of fraud is greatly reduced.

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head here, but backwards: my personal opinion has every bearing on this, because ultimately the question is one of whether a given game is one I would like to play or not. Sure, from a business perspective on might consider any number of the items you've mentioned, but as me the consumer, I am going to be very wary of investing myself in a game which has a currency exchange system, and that's really what it's all about for all of us: based on the way Company X have designed and managed Game Y, do I want to play it or not?

[WraitheDarkbane]

Unfortunately this is not the place for it, but this is a philosophical issue about which I would immeasurably disagree with you. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the philosophy you espouse here is leading to the very destruction of the human race. That said, it's a disagreement about a "side" issue which we really shouldn't try to hash out here.

 

You're confusing my declaration of fact with a treatsie on my opinions and ethics. I didn't state any opinions on how I felt about these things just the facts of the world as they are.

 

 

 

I think that's clear. Perhaps the confusion is in that you are saying it's a part of the game and you perceive me as saying it isn't, whereas in truth what I am objecting to is whether it should be a part of the game.

 

 

 

You're correct in one sense, but not in another. If one baseball team is entirely clean and loses in the World Series to a team of known steroid and other PED users, then is the accomplishment of that winning team cheapened? Of course! Does or ought that somehow lessen the injustice done to the losing team? Certainly not.

 

These two parts comprise one part of my argument. There is no injustice in the games that have ways to buy things IG with rl money that can be earned IG thtough IG currency when the game provides these things. Using your baseball reference there, you are referring to a team that violated the rules and thus there was an injustice. The guy who got the same item you got via different means did not violate any rules. further more you both still got the item and noone really lost. Now if the person with same item beat you in PvP and calling it an injustice is just complaining because the other person on an even playing field as far as that item piece was concerned beat you. This isn't even comparing apples and oranges, it's not even comparing apples and ribeyes, it's like comparing apples and rocks.

 

Whether you think that should be in the game or not is irregardless of the fact it is there. Now, you think it shouldn't be there because of your opinion yet others have the opinion that the game shouldn't be slanted towards the person who plays the most. Who is right and who is wrong? Neither because both arguments have validity.

 

In the end, though, the people deciding what to implent are the people making the games and they are going to go with what model has a proven track record and paying for things IG with RL money has a proven track record, otherwise people would just stick to subscription fees especially when competing for subscriptions with a monster like WoW.

[Skolops]

You're confusing my declaration of fact with a treatsie on my opinions and ethics. I didn't state any opinions on how I felt about these things just the facts of the world as they are.

 

 

 

 

 

These two parts comprise one part of my argument. There is no injustice in the games that have ways to buy things IG with rl money that can be earned IG thtough IG currency when the game provides these things. Using your baseball reference there, you are referring to a team that violated the rules and thus there was an injustice. The guy who got the same item you got via different means did not violate any rules. further more you both still got the item and noone really lost. Now if the person with same item beat you in PvP and calling it an injustice is just complaining because the other person on an even playing field as far as that item piece was concerned beat you. This isn't even comparing apples and oranges, it's not even comparing apples and ribeyes, it's like comparing apples and rocks.

 

Whether you think that should be in the game or not is irregardless of the fact it is there. Now, you think it shouldn't be there because of your opinion yet others have the opinion that the game shouldn't be slanted towards the person who plays the most. Who is right and who is wrong? Neither because both arguments have validity.

 

In the end, though, the people deciding what to implent are the people making the games and they are going to go with what model has a proven track record and paying for things IG with RL money has a proven track record, otherwise people would just stick to subscription fees especially when competing for subscriptions with a monster like WoW.

 

Once again, it really is coming down to philosophy. You are coming from the standpoint of some kind of lege-nominalism which holds that what is right and wrong is defined by what has been delcared to be so. I find this mindset to be grossly immoral and demonstrably intellectually bankrupt, but it's a discussion for another place and time.

 

What really matters is that, as far as the topic at hand is concerned, you think that there's nothing wrong with doing X, Y, or Z if the game rules allow it, whereas I believe that there is a more profound, inherent quality to given actions and concepts. That is, injustice or justice exists entirely apart from any rules or laws and is based on something more intrinsic to creation, existence, or whatever you'd like to call it.

[majikx]

 

Now, if you could, say, pay BW $25 to make your toon auto-leveled to 50, that would be an advantage gained outside of playing. If you could pay $10 to have all the datacrons unlocked it would again be an edge gained outside of playing, and its this kind of thing I have a problem with. I don't care if this means you purchased stims with real money instead of credits, or if you bought the datacrons, or bought you WH gear with US dollars, or bought Influence to buff your guild in WvW. This is what I have a problem with.

 

ok you have some good points here, i agree that it would not be good to be able to pay $10 for stats from datacrons, even if they are available to everyone with time, or $10 for skill point via skill challenges in GW2.

 

this however is not how the system works. the items have to be bought with in game currency, and said currency can not be bought from the shop its self (at least to my knowledge). so someone can not just go to the shop and start buying buffs or what not. someone is going to have to put in the time to farm the gold. so i guess the true question is if being able to sell your gold is right or wrong. imo i don't think it is wrong. if someone spent a lot of time farming gold then wants to sell it. what he is really selling is the time it took him to acquire the gold.

 

for example lets say i am playing a game and notice some peeps names, start chatting with them and find out they or some friends from another game. while we are chatting they mention they don't have enough gold to get the guild buffs. well i check by bank and say well hell i have 20 mill. so i give them 15 mill of it so they can get the buffs. so now they have a guild with the buffs but did not earn them. so is this wrong? imo no it was my gold (or time collecting the gold), and by helping out a guild i made our server a little stronger in WvW.

 

now lets say same scenario as above but the guys say "no we cant just take your gold for free, let us give you something in return". so they pitch in and mail me a bottle of my favorite rum (which cost them real money). so does this now make it unethical? once again i say no. they just gave me something for the time i spent collecting the gold, and i am sure as hell not going to turn down a bottle of rum.

[Skolops]

ok you have some good points here, i agree that it would not be good to be able to pay $10 for stats from datacrons, even if they are available to everyone with time, or $10 for skill point via skill challenges in GW2.

 

this however is not how the system works. the items have to be bought with in game currency, and said currency can not be bought from the shop its self (at least to my knowledge). so someone can not just go to the shop and start buying buffs or what not. someone is going to have to put in the time to farm the gold. so i guess the true question is if being able to sell your gold is right or wrong. imo i don't think it is wrong. if someone spent a lot of time farming gold then wants to sell it. what he is really selling is the time it took him to acquire the gold.

 

for example lets say i am playing a game and notice some peeps names, start chatting with them and find out they or some friends from another game. while we are chatting they mention they don't have enough gold to get the guild buffs. well i check by bank and say well hell i have 20 mill. so i give them 15 mill of it so they can get the buffs. so now they have a guild with the buffs but did not earn them. so is this wrong? imo no it was my gold (or time collecting the gold), and by helping out a guild i made our server a little stronger in WvW.

 

now lets say same scenario as above but the guys say "no we cant just take your gold for free, let us give you something in return". so they pitch in and mail me a bottle of my favorite rum (which cost them real money). so does this now make it unethical? once again i say no. they just gave me something for the time i spent collecting the gold, and i am sure as hell not going to turn down a bottle of rum.

 

That' would be completely fine with me if the source of that money was entirely in-game activities. The ONLY problem I have in all of this is that the money is coming, not from time spent in the game, but from someone's paycheck.

[fungihoujo]

I'm not making a direct analogy from gear to gear. I'm just talking about advantages.

 

My point is that, in any kind of sport, game, whatever, there are going to be certain advantaged one can have. I am fine with that so long as those advantages were earned through actually participating in the game and not bought or gained in some way outside of the game - and if you think about it in terms of sports or games you're familiar with apart from MMOs, we all feel that way.

 

An NFL team with a playoff bye has an advantage that has been earned by playing. An MMO player with T2 or T3 .

 

Sorry, but what? The best NFL team has no advantage over the worst NFL team- they don't have gear or something special that gives them a super edge- they have skill and team work. A 'bye' isn't an advantage in the actual gameplay- it's a part of the tournament system itself that rewards you on your ranking- but it gives zero advantage on the actual field. It would be more akin to saying- SWTOR is hosting a tournament for all teams with 2500+ rating, and any team with 2800+ rating gets to sit out the first round- has nothing to do with gear, or in game, it's just a reward for already proving you're a winning team.

 

By your reasoning- Sydney Crosby in his first year should have been a terrible hockey player- after all he was brand new to the NHL. Yet he outplayed almost all other players- it had nothing to do with how long he'd been in the NHL 'earning' new gear or whatever, it had entirely to do with his skill and his ability to adapt to strategies.

 

GW2- pvp combat will be entirely about skill and adapting your team to strategies. SWTOR, the pvp is entirely about being the right class and having hundreds of hours worth of grinding of gear on that character.

 

Ultimately- outside of horses and cars, which indeed the gear is a big part of it (though that's more about money spent)- sports, other games work much more like GW2 does- and no competitive game works the way SWTOR does other than WoW.

 

Which is just another problem- WoW copied and perfected what EQ had, but SWTOR copied WoW and didn't do that great of a job. The pve, story telling was fantastic- but once people were passed that they should have known they'd need something to keep us here.

 

Still- those who like to win based on the time they spent earning gear will still have WoW/SWTOR- and those who just want to hop in for some competitive pvp, for which the grind is not vital for their enjoyment they'll have GW2. It's really that simple- and making a good competitive game people enjoy will last longer- as seen by Starcraft, DotA, League, CoD, Battlefield, CS- for grinding games most people will grow tired of the endless grind and see it for what it is, and others will reach the end of it because they play ten times as much and realize they have nothing to do and leave.

 

The biggest difference is going to be with the casuals. Those that, every couple days just want to hop in and play a few matches- can do just that and will be able to do just fine because they're not at a disadvantage in any way once they get some familiarity with the game and if they're skilled- which is the same for all competitive sports; skill and familiarity with the game. If they take a two month break, they're still skilled and familiar, they don't have to spend 200 hours regrinding gear, they haven't fallen far behind on the gear curve- it's the same game they left, with maybe a few changes to mechanics and a new battleground- and if you're good, you can adapt in minutes to the changes... not hundreds of hours.

 

Sometimes I don't play League of Legends for a two month period- when I come back, I can look at a guide, play a match or two to get used to the changes to my champ and like that I'm ready. Simple, fast, no grind- GW2 is giving that, and yeah, in pvp you might not get that sense of accomplishment you got when you recieved gear that made you do 25% more damage than the average player, or that sense of awesome when you could take on two players at a time, watching them slowly whittle your health down while you blasted them to pieces in four hits each.

 

Fine- that's cool, people like different things- but it's useless to argue that anyone who isn't a fan of that is leaving SWTOR- or already left- and that GW2 is far more appealing to those players. Real life already has enough boring grinds- I don't need them in my games too.

[Necrosov]

This is what I play in the background when I read this thread.

[DarthOvertone]

this however is not how the system works. the items have to be bought with in game currency, and said currency can not be bought from the shop its self (at least to my knowledge). so someone can not just go to the shop and start buying buffs or what not. someone is going to have to put in the time to farm the gold.

 

Actually, that pretty much is how the system works. BW is creating a new currency called Cartel Coins (CC). CC are being introduced specifically as a currency to buy items through the shop. Subscribers will receive a small allotment of CC with their monthly sub. F2Pers will have to purchase CC with cash in order to buy things in the shop. Subscribers that wish to purchase additional items from the shop beyond their allotment of CC will also have the opportunity to buy more CC with cash.

 

I have not seen or heard anything so far from BW stating that players will be able to earn CC through gameplay, but it wouldn't surprise me if they introduce a method of doing this since other titles have done so.

Edited August 1, 2012 by DarthOvertone

[Katsuragisama]

Pretty sure a good 20 pages back me and Skolops had this argument. So this is what this thread amounted to for, well I'm assuming the past 20 pages since then, lol... O.o

[Skolops]

Pretty sure a good 20 pages back me and Skolops had this argument. So this is what this thread amounted to for, well I'm assuming the past 20 pages since then, lol... O.o

 

Not really. It's progressed from "can you pay money for buffs" to "is it bad that you can pay money for buffs."

[Skolops]

Sorry, but what? The best NFL team has no advantage over the worst NFL team- they don't have gear or something special that gives them a super edge- they have skill and team work. A 'bye' isn't an advantage in the actual gameplay- it's a part of the tournament system itself that rewards you on your ranking- but it gives zero advantage on the actual field. It would be more akin to saying- SWTOR is hosting a tournament for all teams with 2500+ rating, and any team with 2800+ rating gets to sit out the first round- has nothing to do with gear, or in game, it's just a reward for already proving you're a winning team.

 

By your reasoning- Sydney Crosby in his first year should have been a terrible hockey player- after all he was brand new to the NHL. Yet he outplayed almost all other players- it had nothing to do with how long he'd been in the NHL 'earning' new gear or whatever, it had entirely to do with his skill and his ability to adapt to strategies.

 

GW2- pvp combat will be entirely about skill and adapting your team to strategies. SWTOR, the pvp is entirely about being the right class and having hundreds of hours worth of grinding of gear on that character.

 

Ultimately- outside of horses and cars, which indeed the gear is a big part of it (though that's more about money spent)- sports, other games work much more like GW2 does- and no competitive game works the way SWTOR does other than WoW.

 

Which is just another problem- WoW copied and perfected what EQ had, but SWTOR copied WoW and didn't do that great of a job. The pve, story telling was fantastic- but once people were passed that they should have known they'd need something to keep us here.

 

Still- those who like to win based on the time they spent earning gear will still have WoW/SWTOR- and those who just want to hop in for some competitive pvp, for which the grind is not vital for their enjoyment they'll have GW2. It's really that simple- and making a good competitive game people enjoy will last longer- as seen by Starcraft, DotA, League, CoD, Battlefield, CS- for grinding games most people will grow tired of the endless grind and see it for what it is, and others will reach the end of it because they play ten times as much and realize they have nothing to do and leave.

 

The biggest difference is going to be with the casuals. Those that, every couple days just want to hop in and play a few matches- can do just that and will be able to do just fine because they're not at a disadvantage in any way once they get some familiarity with the game and if they're skilled- which is the same for all competitive sports; skill and familiarity with the game. If they take a two month break, they're still skilled and familiar, they don't have to spend 200 hours regrinding gear, they haven't fallen far behind on the gear curve- it's the same game they left, with maybe a few changes to mechanics and a new battleground- and if you're good, you can adapt in minutes to the changes... not hundreds of hours.

 

Sometimes I don't play League of Legends for a two month period- when I come back, I can look at a guide, play a match or two to get used to the changes to my champ and like that I'm ready. Simple, fast, no grind- GW2 is giving that, and yeah, in pvp you might not get that sense of accomplishment you got when you recieved gear that made you do 25% more damage than the average player, or that sense of awesome when you could take on two players at a time, watching them slowly whittle your health down while you blasted them to pieces in four hits each.

 

Fine- that's cool, people like different things- but it's useless to argue that anyone who isn't a fan of that is leaving SWTOR- or already left- and that GW2 is far more appealing to those players. Real life already has enough boring grinds- I don't need them in my games too.

 

FYI, I've stopped responding to you, as you really just write books which rehash old arguments which have been dealt with before.

[Aaoogaa]

The only issue with this entire thread is GW2 = yawn. Yeah, TOR is making terribad choices on the development side but GW2 will not be the answer for PVPers.

[Morrolan]

Not really. It's progressed from "can you pay money for buffs" to "is it bad that you can pay money for buffs."

So long as you can get the same advantages through in game activities there's no loss of moral integrity, in fact given one of the reasons for doing it is to stop gold farmers its probably the best solution all round.

[Skolops]

So long as you can get the same advantages through in game activities there's no loss of moral integrity, in fact given one of the reasons for doing it is to stop gold farmers its probably the best solution all round.

 

Therein lies the disagreement.

 

I think there is a loss of moral integrity, because it gives some people the ability to obtain some advantage via means (money) that others do not have. There is an inequity. Player A can get the buff via in game activity or the spending of money, but Player B can get it only via in game activity. He is at a disadvantage.

 

I also very strongly doubt that gold farming or any other problem serves as an inspiration for this mechanic. Rather, I guarantee that it is quite simply something which the developers believe will be perceived as fun by some segments of the player base.

 

Finally, I object to the idea of compromising for the sake of overcoming illegitimate behavior. Just because some people like to rob banks, that doesn't mean every bank should give away free twenties each Friday, and just because some people like to break MMO policies about gold farming, that doesn't mean we should institute rules to legitimize the practice.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Skolops

[Astarica]

For the real life analogy, note that some of the teams have better medical staff, scouting, computer models, equipment, or whatever else that gives them a considerable advantage that a team with less resource may not have. People in NBA for example spend a ton of money trying to figure out the value of a player and it's certainly quite easy to see that suppose one team perfected this via investing a ton of money, they'd obviously have a huge edge on the field by being able to predict who they can hire to maximize their chances of winning. Phoenix Sun's superior medical staff has been credited with their ability to get extra leverage out of old guys who probably shouldn't be playing anymore. Nothing in life is ever fair to the point where having more money doesn't help you.

[fungihoujo]

FYI, I've stopped responding to you, as you really just write books which rehash old arguments which have been dealt with before.

 

You mean, ignored because they prove you are wrong and are making things up constantly? Ignored because you have no actual response, which is understandable since it is hard to respond when you are incorrect- much easier to just ignore- much like you admitted earlier that the only arguments you pay attention to are the 80% of players who have no clue what they're talking about, and thus you draw the conclusions that only bads complain.

 

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you think discussion is a one way street, and that entirely ignoring arguments is 'dealing with them'.

 

Kind of ironic isn't it- if someone writes something that is short they cannot really defend their point, and thus you can simply say 'you have no proof and are wrong and bad' yet if they write something long you can say 'TLDR, I don't want to read a book'. No wonder it's so easy for you to avoid seeing anything but exactly what you yourself want to see.

[Necrosov]

Therein lies the disagreement.

 

I think there is a loss of moral integrity, because it gives some people the ability to obtain some advantage via means (money) that others do not have. There is an inequity. Player A can get the buff via in game activity or the spending of money, but Player B can get it only via in game activity. He is at a disadvantage.

 

I also very strongly doubt that gold farming or any other problem serves as an inspiration for this mechanic. Rather, I guarantee that it is quite simply something which the developers believe will be perceived as fun by some segments of the player base.

 

Finally, I object to the idea of compromising for the sake of overcoming illegitimate behavior. Just because some people like to rob banks, that doesn't mean every bank should give away free twenties each Friday, and just because some people like to break MMO policies about gold farming, that doesn't mean we should institute rules to legitimize the practice.

 

Yet you ignore that Player B has to fuel Player A and Player A relies on if Player B wants to trade his gold he earned playing the game to player A. It's completely up to the players themselves if they want to allow this. All that aside from the fact you don't even know how these things work within the game. **** man, here I go again letting you troll me over and over.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Necrosov

[Skolops]

You mean, ignored because they prove you are wrong and are making things up constantly? Ignored because you have no actual response, which is understandable since it is hard to respond when you are incorrect- much easier to just ignore- much like you admitted earlier that the only arguments you pay attention to are the 80% of players who have no clue what they're talking about, and thus you draw the conclusions that only bads complain.

 

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you think discussion is a one way street, and that entirely ignoring arguments is 'dealing with them'.

 

Kind of ironic isn't it- if someone writes something that is short they cannot really defend their point, and thus you can simply say 'you have no proof and are wrong and bad' yet if they write something long you can say 'TLDR, I don't want to read a book'. No wonder it's so easy for you to avoid seeing anything but exactly what you yourself want to see.

 

I write some of the longest posts you'll find on any forum I am on. However, they have substance, they seek to respond to things that my interlocutors have said, and not what they have not, they seek to take into account everything that has been said and strive to avoid missing anything, and they always seek to further the discussion by clarifying or going more deeply into some given point.

 

So far, much of what you have written accuses me of holding to positions that I have explicitly rejected,responds to my arguments by repeating the very same things which my more recent posts have already been written to address without responding to those more recent posts, and even simply takes 3 or 4 paragraphs to make ad hominem arguments without addressing the point at hand.

 

So yes, I believe it a better use of my time not to respond. Those arguments of yours which are either new or relevant will be addressed.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Skolops

[Necrosov]

guess I shouldn't be surprised that you think discussion is a one way street, and that entirely ignoring arguments is 'dealing with them'..

 

It's not a discussion with him - it never has been. He lives in his own world devoid of logic, fact and reasoning. He is just trolling. TROLOLOL

Edited August 1, 2012 by Necrosov

[Skolops]

Yet you ignore that Player B has to fuel Player A and Player A relies on if Player B wants to trade his gold he earned playing the game to player A. It's completely up to the players themselves if they want to allow this. All that aside from the fact you don't even know how these things work within the game. **** man, here I go again letting you troll me over and over.

 

I will tell you what I told another: I was warned by the administrators for saying another was trolling, so I would kindly ask you to respect the rules that I am required to follow.

 

Now as to your point, it is the height of obfuscation. There will be absolutely no problem whatsoever with finding players to trade gems for gold. More importantly, what is at issue is not what the community of players will or will not do, but rather what the developers will or will not allow.

 

If a country chose to have no laws against racial discrimination and to allow the citizenry to regulate this matter themselves and the citizens by and large prevent racial discrimination from occurring, that does not mean that it is not still a bad decision for the government to institute laws which allow for the possibility of the discrimination.

[Necrosov]

I will tell you what I told another: I was warned by the administrators for saying another was trolling, so I would kindly ask you to respect the rules that I am required to follow.

 

Now as to your point, it is the height of obfuscation. There will be absolutely no problem whatsoever with finding players to trade gems for gold. More importantly, what is at issue is not what the community of players will or will not do, but rather what the developers will or will not allow.

 

If a country chose to have no laws against racial discrimination and to allow the citizenry to regulate this matter themselves and the citizens by and large prevent racial discrimination from occurring, that does not mean that it is not still a bad decision for the government to institute laws which allow for the possibility of the discrimination.

 

You're talking out of your *** buddy. You have no clue how easy it is to get gold or what players are going to do. You have no game experience or any clue as how any of what you're trying to discuss works within the game. Spare me your ******** logic. You ARE a troll. Go ahead and report me for saying that because this ENTIRE thread is against the forums rules because we are talking about Guild Wars 2 and not anything related to SWTOR and they will just delete or lock it preventing anyone from reading you dribble.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Necrosov

[Morrolan]

Therein lies the disagreement.

 

I think there is a loss of moral integrity, because it gives some people the ability to obtain some advantage via means (money) that others do not have. There is an inequity. Player A can get the buff via in game activity or the spending of money, but Player B can get it only via in game activity. He is at a disadvantage.

No he isn't given player A would have a disadvantage in terms of time, player B has means player A does not, namely time. The fact is both players have the opportunity to get the same advantage in game via different means. You want to get metaphysical you have to take those different considerations into account.

 

Your trying to make a metaphysical argument about competition but it doesn't stack up when there are worse inequities in every sport around the world.

[Skolops]

Sorry, but what? The best NFL team has no advantage over the worst NFL team- they don't have gear or something special that gives them a super edge- they have skill and team work. A 'bye' isn't an advantage in the actual gameplay- it's a part of the tournament system itself that rewards you on your ranking- but it gives zero advantage on the actual field. It would be more akin to saying- SWTOR is hosting a tournament for all teams with 2500+ rating, and any team with 2800+ rating gets to sit out the first round- has nothing to do with gear, or in game, it's just a reward for already proving you're a winning team.

 

The Keep and Influence systems in GW2 rewards guilds on their achievements ("rankings") in WvW and allows them to obtain advantages based on these things. The Influence buffs, like the valor buffs on Ilum, are rewards for already being a "winning team."

 

With the Gem - > Money - > Influence system, however, you can also obtain these rewards without being a winning team - or rather, without being as winning a team as you would otherwise need to be. You still of course need to have obtained a keep, but you do not need to get the Influence, so it would be as if an NFL Wild Card team were able to spend money or draft picks to purchase a bye. They already were a "winning team" to one degree, and thus earned a playoff spot (a Keep), but they can now use money to obtain what their in game success would otherwise not warrant (Influence/a playoff bye).

 

By your reasoning- Sydney Crosby in his first year should have been a terrible hockey player- after all he was brand new to the NHL. Yet he outplayed almost all other players- it had nothing to do with how long he'd been in the NHL 'earning' new gear or whatever, it had entirely to do with his skill and his ability to adapt to strategies.

 

I'[m not entirely sure what this has to do with anything that I have claimed.

 

GW2- pvp combat will be entirely about skill and adapting your team to strategies. SWTOR, the pvp is entirely about being the right class and having hundreds of hours worth of grinding of gear on that character.

 

Tell that to the group that tried to run 8 man Vanguard ranked teams and got destroyed by everyone. You vastly overstate the degree of balance issues in this game, and its really a whole other discussion to settle that[/] question. Suffice it to say you are using a premise here - that class and gear imbalances are too gross in TOR - which I reject.

 

Ultimately- outside of horses and cars, which indeed the gear is a big part of it (though that's more about money spent)- sports, other games work much more like GW2 does- and no competitive game works the way SWTOR does other than WoW.

 

Other competitive games do not work the way GW2, by any stretch of the imagination. I wouldn't expect them too, either, as GW2 is a computer game and an MMO which have different ways of working than sports. Of course, there are similarities, which is why I and others have used them for comparison. The question is the degree of similarities and differences, and I would say that GW2 is no more similar to the NFL or any other sport than WoW or TOR is.

 

 

Still- those who like to win based on the time they spent earning gear will still have WoW/SWTOR- and those who just want to hop in for some competitive pvp, for which the grind is not vital for their enjoyment they'll have GW2. It's really that simple- and making a good competitive game people enjoy will last longer- as seen by Starcraft, DotA, League, CoD, Battlefield, CS- for grinding games most people will grow tired of the endless grind and see it for what it is, and others will reach the end of it because they play ten times as much and realize they have nothing to do and leave.

 

The biggest difference is going to be with the casuals. Those that, every couple days just want to hop in and play a few matches- can do just that and will be able to do just fine because they're not at a disadvantage in any way once they get some familiarity with the game and if they're skilled- which is the same for all competitive sports; skill and familiarity with the game. If they take a two month break, they're still skilled and familiar, they don't have to spend 200 hours regrinding gear, they haven't fallen far behind on the gear curve- it's the same game they left, with maybe a few changes to mechanics and a new battleground- and if you're good, you can adapt in minutes to the changes... not hundreds of hours.

 

Sometimes I don't play League of Legends for a two month period- when I come back, I can look at a guide, play a match or two to get used to the changes to my champ and like that I'm ready. Simple, fast, no grind- GW2 is giving that, and yeah, in pvp you might not get that sense of accomplishment you got when you recieved gear that made you do 25% more damage than the average player, or that sense of awesome when you could take on two players at a time, watching them slowly whittle your health down while you blasted them to pieces in four hits each.

 

Fine- that's cool, people like different things- but it's useless to argue that anyone who isn't a fan of that is leaving SWTOR- or already left- and that GW2 is far more appealing to those players. Real life already has enough boring grinds- I don't need them in my games too.

 

This is the section that really inspired me to ignore this post, as it is yet another instance of someone accusing me of liking the TOR system simply because I want to have a gear advantage over other players when I have made more than clear in my many, many posts that this is the farthest thing from the truth. As I said to another in another, look at my signature and try to tell me again that I just want a gear advantage. I have one geared character - maybe 2 - out of 10, and I intend to PvP at level 50 in ranked warzones with all of them. If GW2's system took effect in TOR tomorrow, it would be a HUGE advantage to me over the current system, but I would not welcome it because I think that the system works as it should as is.

 

I also maintain that many, many, many people who are going to start playing GW2 because they like the idea of the "no grind" system will find themselves simply growing bored of it very, very quickly, because whether they realize it or not it is a scientific fact of human nature, one which has been demonstrated repeatedly, that this kind of "grind" keeps people interested in something.

[Morrolan]

I also maintain that many, many, many people who are going to start playing GW2 because they like the idea of the "no grind" system will find themselves simply growing bored of it very, very quickly, because whether they realize it or not it is a scientific fact of human nature, one which has been demonstrated repeatedly, that this kind of "grind" keeps people interested in something.

Thats actually contradicted by the experience of many different games.

[Crawelc]

TL: DR Hockey isnt a sport /thread