Soooo.. GW2 is coming and you do nothing to keep the PvP-Players here?

[RogueNights]

I wish pvp in this game had less lull periods, a little more diversity to pvp, and a few more big events w/ some glory associated w/ them... I'd be very happy with just a few easy changes.

 

Dueling and/or open world pvp dailies. The game needs filler pvp content between wz.

 

Get rid of the outliers on the poor performance side in pvp. Realize this game is balanced around pve, you cant completely ignore pvp tho, there is no excuse for the current state of mercs. Periodically gimping classes cause more people to quit, go fotm, or just plain be unhappy while playing their fully geared main knowing they'll never be as good..

 

Some stuff that i think would be nice is:

Tournament event.

Pve dailies were pvp is likely and rewarded.

[Katsuragisama]

If there are really bads like this in TOR (and I've seen them, so there are at least some), then they're only allowed to be bads because of other bads not kicking their butts for this stuff.

 

In any case, I think everyone is going to be very dissapointed and frustrated by how many awful, awful players are polluting the sPvP in GW2 - not to mention how many absolute trolls work very hard to ruin the WvW.

 

Will I be disappointed? To some degree I'm sure. I came here as a PvP newb. I'm not gonna say I'm the best, but I definitely feel I'm pretty damn good. This was a nice introduction to the usual PvP area of MMOs. And I fell in love with it. Running solo in WZ's pisses me off, thats why I bring guildies or other friends I know that are pretty skilled. Only thing is, like I've said before, most of my guildies played GW2 during the last beta weekend, so I highly doubt I'll have an issue just running with bads.

 

Though I'm sure there will end up being quite a few good guilds in GW2. Just because the atmosphere of no gear grinding, should force people with only one objective: get better. So I hope there will be some decent competition as well. Losing is what it is. Winning is fun, roflstomping is boring.

 

Agreed with this one point over all else stated in this thread. CS in this game has been by far, the single most unimpressive experience I have had in an MMO. From day one it has sucked. The total lack of an ability to actually "speak" to someone in game or out of game is inexcusable and screams to me "We want your money, don't care about you or your problems with our product".

 

I think whether you like the game or not (and I do, just bored of it), everyone in the game can agree on this fact. But if they keep going for money over quality product and service, they're not gonna end up with no customers at some point.

 

Unless you're just a hardcore Star Wars fan, which you might be pigeon holed since I cant think of any other SW game other than SWG which is down. But I think some people are working on an emulation/remake of that or something from what I've heard? To which I'm sure many would leave TOR for a SWG reboot. O.o;;

 

Nevermind, found it. SWGEmu, but I'm not sure what phase they're at. O.o

[islander]

Well, it looks like they finally killed Liberator, so I guess that's progress? LOL

[mangarrage]

Well the answer is they are making it FTP lol

 

So now what are all you fanbois gotta say.

 

swtor p2w haha see I can do it too

[Skolops]

Well the answer is they are making it FTP lol

 

So now what are all you fanbois gotta say.

 

swtor p2w haha see I can do it too

 

Well, if th Cartel shop were offering anything other than novelty items, like, say, buffs to your guild in PvP combat, then maybe you'd have a point.

[Necrosov]

Well, if th Cartel shop were offering anything other than novelty items, like, say, buffs to your guild in PvP combat, then maybe you'd have a point.

 

OH! You mean just like what Guild Wars 2 is doing! Weren't you just saying how disgusted you were about the cash shop? OH how the mighty have fallen! HAHA! The irony of this post is so rewarding!

 

Edit: Bet you got me on ignore too after I debunked your whole " It's pay2win!" argument earlier in the thread - even citing my information sources.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Necrosov

[Skolops]

OH! You mean just like what Guild Wars 2 is doing! Weren't you just saying how disgusted you were about the cash shop? OH how the mighty have fallen! HAHA! The irony of this post is so rewarding!

 

Edit: Bet you got me on ignore too after I debunked your whole " It's pay2win!" argument earlier in the thread - even citing my information sources.

 

Erm, I think you should try rereading that post. My point was precisely that GW2 Cash Shop DOES allow you to purchase buffs for your guild in PvP combat, whereas that does not seem to be the case where TOR is concerned.

 

You have also debunked nothing. When the conversation was said and done, the person whom I was primarily dialoguing with conceded that I was correct, while believing and/or hoping that it would not ultimately be that big a deal.

[Necrosov]

Erm, I think you should try rereading that post. My point was precisely that GW2 Cash Shop DOES allow you to purchase buffs for your guild in PvP combat, whereas that does not seem to be the case where TOR is concerned.

 

You have also debunked nothing. When the conversation was said and done, the person whom I was primarily dialoguing with conceded that I was correct, while believing and/or hoping that it would not ultimately be that big a deal.

 

You really should go read my post I explained it quite nicely. It's not pay 2 win when everyone has access to the same item's using in game gold or cash. In the case of cash you need to trade your cash bought gems with another player for their gold ( making it completely player driven). If player's don't have the gold to trade you don't get the gold. Then, you need to use the gold to buy the influence to get the buff which take time to activate. Everyone has access to the same resources. You're trying to argue with someone who has played the beta and actually tested this stuff out. All you've done is watch some youtube video and pretend to know what you are talking about. I say gooday to you sir! /cackle

Edited July 31, 2012 by Necrosov

[Jayshames]

Gw microtransactions were for cosmetic items, nothing that will give you an advantage over any other player. Gw2 will most likely follow that route.

[Jayshames]

Gw microtransactions were for cosmetic items, nothing that will give you an advantage over any other player. Gw2 will most likely follow that route.

 

You really should go read my post I explained it quite nicely. It's not pay 2 win when everyone has access to the same item's using in game gold or cash. In the case of cash you need to trade your cash bought gems with another player for their gold ( making it completely player driven). If player's don't have the gold to trade you don't get the gold. Then, you need to use the gold to buy the influence to get the buff which take time to activate. Everyone has access to the same resources. You're trying to argue with someone who has played the beta and actually tested this stuff out. All you've done is watch some youtube video and pretend to know what you are talking about. I say gooday to you sir! /cackle

 

This, exactly what he said, the funnier part is that the majority of people arguing against Gw2 HAVEN'T even watched any videos, they're simply trying to find something to argue about or moan over since people will be leaving.

[Skolops]

You really should go read my post I explained it quite nicely. It's not pay 2 win when everyone has access to the same item's using in game gold or cash. In the case of cash you need to trade your cash bought gems with another player for their gold ( making it completely player driven). If player's don't have the gold to trade you don't get the gold. Then, you need to use the gold to buy the influence to get the buff which take time to activate. Everyone has access to the same resources. You're trying to argue with someone who has played the beta and actually tested this stuff out. All you've done is watch some youtube video and pretend to know what you are talking about. I say gooday to you sir! /cackle

 

If I want Influence so as to obtain a buff for my guild, I have two options:

 

1) Have myself and my guild members spend a resource which, generally speaking, every guild will the same access to - time - to gain Influence via in game mechanics.

 

2) Spend a resource which I may have in vastly greater quantity than others to gain Influence via the vendor system.

 

Like I said, it is the same thing as if it had been possible to but the Ilum buff with cash money. Sure, everyone else has access to the same buff if they spend the time and achieve the success to earn it. However, the individual who can buy the buff with real world money could obtain it on demand, with a 100% success rate, in "quantities" exceeding what those obtaining it in game could gain. It would be pay to win, essentially.

 

The same will be true in GW2. Even if I have a guild of 500 members constantly doing Influence gaining activities 24/7, one person with sufficient real-world income could go ahead and buy more Influence than my guild could ever earn.

[Skolops]

This, exactly what he said, the funnier part is that the majority of people arguing against Gw2 HAVEN'T even watched any videos, they're simply trying to find something to argue about or moan over since people will be leaving.

 

This stuff is simply incorrect. You can purchase Influence - a currency used to purchase in-combat guild buffs - via real world cash money.

[rlhaas]

While I'm posting on the subject right now, I want to throw in another point I've been thinking about, which is that SWtOR is so much cleaner visually. When in a WZ, I can see what's going on and respond. GW2 is visually impressive with all of its attack animations, but they're so incredibly noisy and flashy that it seems almost impossible to actually keep track of what is going on. When I watch 1080p videos of the thing, I literally can't even see the players half the time through all of the particle effects. To me, that's a HUGE drawback.

 

This right here is pretty much the main reason I am almost dreading playing GW2. It looks great, plays great and all that, but the stupid effects reallllly get in the way. If you haven't played it, you won't know but they really do. I mean when you're playing TOR, you know when your Juggy is guarding you. You know when the enemy BH is dropping some missiles and at the same time can see your buddy capping a node. In GW2, sometimes it's just plain tough to see whether or not it's your Engy or the other team's Engy's turret, or glue puddle, or what have you. You DO get the circles letting you know whose is what, but a lot of the time some huge particle animation is going on and those circle lines are so thin, they almost blend right into the environment. ANet really needs to find a new way to show off their art or make the circles thicker or something.

[Necrosov]

This stuff is simply incorrect. You can purchase Influence - a currency used to purchase in-combat guild buffs - via real world cash money.

 

Source? It definitely wasn't available in the cash shop last weekend. Like I said and like the link in my posts will tell you... you need to exchange gems with gold from another player in the game. You CAN'T buy influence directly with cash. Did you even read ANYTHING? Here man. I did a simple Google search and got this post which goes into further detail about it and arguments to go along with it. http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/27994-buying-influence-evil/. You're taking so much out of context here because you don't know how the game works. The buffs aren't even that powerful.

[WraitheDarkbane]

New Flash: Only idiots care.

 

Seriously, this thread makes me lol how much people work and argue to defend either game. Did you invent either game? Do you own stock in the game? It's doubtful. Then why defend either one so vehemently? It's not like it gets you anything or your defending something other than something you play (or will play).

 

Play one, play the other or play both. It's not like it really matters if your arguments convince anyone because the majority have made up their mind already.

[Skolops]

Source? It definitely wasn't available in the cash shop last weekend. Like I said and like the link in my posts will tell you... you need to exchange gems with gold from another player in the game. You CAN'T buy influence directly with cash. Did you even read ANYTHING? Here man. I did a simple Google search and got this post which goes into further detail about it and arguments to go along with it. http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/27994-buying-influence-evil/. You're taking so much out of context here because you don't know how the game works. The buffs aren't even that powerful.

 

Yes, you need to exchange gems for gold, but this is so trivial a point that I cannot believe your'e actually trying to use this as an argument here. There will not be some shortage of gold that will somehow prevent this from happening.

 

All of the rest of the things that the article says are just, ultimately, excuses. As I said earlier, I don't care if it cost $1,000,000 per minute to buy a one year waiting period to have a .01% increase in health in a 5 meter radius around the most strongly guarded depths of your keep for 30 seconds. The very fact that it's even possible is a serious, serious violation of the integrity of the open world PvP.

 

Now obviously, I'm exaggerating a bit here, but the point is that it is possible to spend real world money to purchase - with whatever limitations, delay or promptness, inefficiency or efficiency, and large or small impact - buffs and other goodies which will increase your effectiveness in WvW combat. This is a very bad thing, and it just seems to me to have a "dark feel" about it making me very wary that this kind of thing is going to slowly start to become a bigger part of the game.

[Katsuragisama]

[...]

 

As for the connection to the character, I will likely enjoy leveling the character, that much is true. The problem is that once you enter the Mists "lobby" area, whatever your character was is replaced by this faceless shell of a character, with gear etc. that is ultimately entirely disconnected from the time you've put into that character, whether it be 5 minutes or 500 hours. On top of that, you don't even get to appreciate your look, as its replaced by ugly cartoonish red and blue shading.

 

Ahh, so thats what it is. I ended up reading this trying to skim through past pages to see where I left off. I've starting looking at it as people who dont like this system, just wont have the gear advantage. But for you it's truly the connection you feel for putting time towards your character. And for that, I apologize to you, Skolops. It seems most of the PvP community I've met through this game is also going to GW2. But I will probably miss playing my character (not going to say toon, god how I hate that term).

[kyube]

So with swtor going free to play, and it will have a cashshop because those cartel coins aren't just there for their trusty subscribers. Will those players who have spend the last 40 pages ************ about "tightening the noose / pay 2 win / sucking you dry of money use the same argument against swtor? If you have any sense of consistency you will since EA has such an awesome track record regarding free 2 play.

 

Best thing about this disaster going free to play, trolls lose one argument to troll about.

[ISTrick]

Ahh, so thats what it is. I ended up reading this trying to skim through past pages to see where I left off. I've starting looking at it as people who dont like this system, just wont have the gear advantage. But for you it's truly the connection you feel for putting time towards your character. And for that, I apologize to you, Skolops. It seems most of the PvP community I've met through this game is also going to GW2. But I will probably miss playing my character (not going to say toon, god how I hate that term).

 

I too, hate the word 'toon'.

 

Hey, limited Warzones for 'F2Pers' is quite smart though, will keep me from transending into the F2P horde, I will resub once my GW2 burst from Aug-Nov is done, then play both in a happy tandem utopia (that is the plan on paper... anyway). lol

[Morrolan]

All of the rest of the things that the article says are just, ultimately, excuses. As I said earlier, I don't care if it cost $1,000,000 per minute to buy a one year waiting period to have a .01% increase in health in a 5 meter radius around the most strongly guarded depths of your keep for 30 seconds. The very fact that it's even possible is a serious, serious violation of the integrity of the open world PvP..

As has already been said WvWvW is unbalanced anyway. A lvl 80 will always have an advantage over a lvl 10 despite the bolstering. You're trying to mount an argument about a principle which doesn't exist.

 

Now obviously, I'm exaggerating a bit here, but the point is that it is possible to spend real world money to purchase - with whatever limitations, delay or promptness, inefficiency or efficiency, and large or small impact - buffs and other goodies which will increase your effectiveness in WvW combat. This is a very bad thing, and it just seems to me to have a "dark feel" about it making me very wary that this kind of thing is going to slowly start to become a bigger part of the game.

You know what they say about assumptions. Its clear that you're just looking for ways to criticise GW2 and making stuff up. Why don't you have similarly 'dark' feelings about p2w creeping in to swtor even though they state that the cartel shop items are cosmetic only at the moment? I'd trust anet far far far more to keep to their principles than EA.

[Yinata]

I for one will be gone, wasn't a huge fan of GW2, but it will be x 10 greater than this game once it goes F2P. Also most of the good pvp'ers from SWTOR are now going to go to GW2, not many of them are going to stick it through the F2P terribads that are coming to a galaxy near you.

 

F2P GW2 PvP = win.

 

F2P SWTOR PvP = EPIC BIOFAIL

 

The word of the day is......

 

BIOFAIL!

[Morrolan]

Well, don't worry about stat stacking. As I understand it, you will be able to essentially min/max your gear, at least to some degree, choose what are basically set bonuses, etc. As a person who LOVES to min max his gear and to try different specs constantly to the degree that I'm broke, I am looking forward to how GW2 allows this more readily. At the same time, I'm somewhat disappointed in their talent tree equivalent, as it seems more limited than SWtOR's is. Now I know others will come in and say it actually provides more choices and variety, but I just don't see it this way when I look at how it works.

SWTOR allows at most 3 specs per class that are worthwhile playing, and for most its arguably less. The way GW2 is set up there are many different combinations of weapons and traits that can be created that will be worthwhile. I know you won't listen but you can't just look at the weapon skills and trait tiers in isolation, you have to evaluate how they will interact with each other and thats even before the combos that can be performed.

 

As for the "connection" to the character, the problem is not so much that there will be no personal story or leveling experience or whatnot, as there will be. The problem I have is that all of that is very disconnected from the sPvP, and in at least two ways. First, if you want to simply create a new toon an rush him straight into the sPvP you can, meaning that you skip all of that leveling stuff, at least at first.

I don't necessarily mind a grind but the WH grind is ridiculous, 250-300 hours to get from BM to WH is just stupid. By the time I'm halfway through I'm sick of the character. As I understand your argument your role playing your character even in PvP thats a personal preference and hardly a criticism of the game. Plus in GW2 you do have the choice of levelling up your character then doing sPvP. Its not stopping you doing that.

[Astarica]

SWTOR allows at most 3 specs per class that are worthwhile playing, and for most its arguably less. The way GW2 is set up there are many different combinations of weapons and traits that can be created that will be worthwhile. I know you won't listen but you can't just look at the weapon skills and trait tiers in isolation, you have to evaluate how they will interact with each other and thats even before the combos that can be performed.

 

 

Diablo 3 has 1 gazillion possible skill allocations but there's probably only like 2 that are actually viable in Inferno per class.

 

Having more choices don't mean anything when all but 2 choices aren't viable, especially in a PvP environment where what's viable is determined by other people, not yourself, unless you enjoy just getting killed repeatedly. At the PvE level you can at least say 'this spec does less DPS than the FOTM but I like the style', which is fine. In PvP you usually just end up dead.

 

There's no reason to believe GW2 will be immune to all the problems that comes with the genre, but for $60 with no sub it's not exactly a big risk. You can almost certainly bet that the ability to buy power via cash shop will influence the game in some way, but you've always been able to buy power with cash in every MMORPG. In EQ1, if you can two box you're considerably more powerful than someone who cannot, and the high power tradeables in its early expansions makes any cash shop look weak. Buying a Blade of Carnage for $200 instantly puts your character as the most powerful melee on the server in terms of damage output, and yet the game still played fine. RMT is always going to be a problem, so there's no point to deny it, but there's also no reason to expect GW2 to be any worse than any other MMORPG when it comes to RMT.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Astarica

[Skolops]

So with swtor going free to play, and it will have a cashshop because those cartel coins aren't just there for their trusty subscribers. Will those players who have spend the last 40 pages ************ about "tightening the noose / pay 2 win / sucking you dry of money use the same argument against swtor? If you have any sense of consistency you will since EA has such an awesome track record regarding free 2 play.

 

Best thing about this disaster going free to play, trolls lose one argument to troll about.

 

As has already been said WvWvW is unbalanced anyway. A lvl 80 will always have an advantage over a lvl 10 despite the bolstering. You're trying to mount an argument about a principle which doesn't exist.

 

 

You know what they say about assumptions. Its clear that you're just looking for ways to criticise GW2 and making stuff up. Why don't you have similarly 'dark' feelings about p2w creeping in to swtor even though they state that the cartel shop items are cosmetic only at the moment? I'd trust anet far far far more to keep to their principles than EA.

 

If it weren't the case that GW2 ALREADY has a "pay to win" system planned, you may have an argument. Look, if something similar were introduced to TOR, I'd start saying the same things. The fact is that, from what we know now, TOR won't have such a system and GW2 will.

 

Let me explain something about the "dark feeling." The reason I think that the GW2 system has one is not simply because I think there's an integrity issue present in the system as its set up now. Rather, it's because of the attitude which I see coming from the developers on it. The GW2 developers have said that they don't intend WvW to be balanced, but rather they want it to simply be a giant, epic battle where people can have fun. Now to them, it seems that spending US Dollars or Euros for buffs to your performance in WvW contributes to this fun and is ok because, ultimately, WvW doesn't really matter anyways and is "just for fun."

 

The problem here is that it seems to reveal an attitude or an approach to the game whereby anything is ok as long as it lets people have more fun. This leads to things like the Cow Finisher: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d73PL_7x5M&feature=plcp , which I frankly think makes a joke of PvP whether it be structured or not, but, its OK because its "just for fun." Also remember that even in their discussion of the supposedly very serious, competitive PvP, they have said that they designed the entire system to be more fun.

 

Now, I must sound like a crazy person here, as if I were saying, "They're designing a game to be fun? The fiends!" That's not my point. Of course the game should be fun, even the most "serious" and competitive part of it. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be driven by, ultimately, a design philosophy beyond what is "fun." StarCraft 2, for example, is a game and it's intended to be fun, but I absolutely assure you that when it was under design, being fun was not the way they would have described or thought about their ultimate or core goal. The result is a game which is very fun, but the competition in which is also able to be taken very seriously. My concern is really just that a core design philosophy such as the developers have voiced, coupled with some of their early choices, indicate that it would not be a stretch for them to head down the path at some point of opening the "serious" side of the game to thinks which really start to hurt its competitive integrity.

 

What it comes down to, I think what feels to me like a strong leaning towards giving the players whatever they want - which again, can be to a degree a good thing, of course. At the same time, its important that game companies have a strong and firm restraint where this is concerned. The StarCraft 2 developers are, again, a good example. They will give the community what they like to a degree, but they know when to hold back for the overall good and/or integrity of the game. Now some may think that the TOR developers have gone TOO far in this regard, but in any case what they haven't done is demonstrate an attitude such that I'd expect them to go opening the game up to different shenanigans because there is some desire for it.

 

These are the developers that got rid of the party bomb despite its popularity as a "fun item" amongst some people, because they thought it was better for the game. The same goes for the gigantic speeders, and a variety of other choices they have made. They've shown restraint. Again, maybe they should have been more open to the community at times, and that's a valid criticism but it's really a different issue. The ArenaNet people, to me, have just shown through various choices that I am not sure if I can trust them to keep things on the up and up if they feel like they can introduce more "fun" or whatnot at various points.

 

Also, please understand: I'm not just looking for things to criticize. The truth is that I am excited about the game and look forward to giving it a spin. However, I am also not blinded by some vision of it as some great game to end all games, and one which will clearly be better than TOR, or any of the other kinds of things going around, and I'm not going to sit around and let people talk about it as such when I see flaws worth talking about as well.

[Skolops]

SWTOR allows at most 3 specs per class that are worthwhile playing, and for most its arguably less. The way GW2 is set up there are many different combinations of weapons and traits that can be created that will be worthwhile. I know you won't listen but you can't just look at the weapon skills and trait tiers in isolation, you have to evaluate how they will interact with each other and thats even before the combos that can be performed.

 

This is true, though you're ignoring hybrids which will be played in TOR and GW2 alike. The issue I have with the GW2 system is that, at least to a degree you have a large array of choices in how you want to spend your points in each tier in TOR. Some tiers of some specs have less valid choices than others, but generally speaking, you have choices as to which talents you want to take and even how many points you want to put into them. GW2, on the other hand, has a very linear system where in each "tree" you are given only 2 choices per tier, one of which you REQUIRED to take and the other of which you can choose only one out of several options. In TOR, I can go up to the 5th tier in a given tree and take all or only one of the options. This isn't possible in GW2.

 

 

I don't necessarily mind a grind but the WH grind is ridiculous, 250-300 hours to get from BM to WH is just stupid. By the time I'm halfway through I'm sick of the character. As I understand your argument your role playing your character even in PvP thats a personal preference and hardly a criticism of the game. Plus in GW2 you do have the choice of levelling up your character then doing sPvP. Its not stopping you doing that.

 

It's not a matter of RP at all, really. It's just a matter of feeling like the character I am playing in his WH gear in a level 50 warzone is the same character I put all of the work into getting there. If I level a character to 80 and hop into a PvP match, and he's all of a sudden sporting different clothes - and garish red or blue versions, of these different clothes, at that - and perhaps even has a different setup of traits and other options, it would bother me. I'd feel like I was playing something entirely different from what I'd spent so much time getting to that point.

 

On the other hand, I can't just skip all of that investment either, because if I just hop in from a very low level, I'll feel like I'm playing with something I've put absolutely no time into, and I won't like that either.