To the Anonymous Insider

[Soluss]

No, the thing is, back during the early days on these forums (and even before these forums, when things were still just rumored the BioWare MMO) people were vouching for how they did not want this to turn into a new WoW, how they wanted it to stay true to the nature of Mass Effect or KOTOR (both mentioned quite often as potential settings for the MMO).

 

This held on till very late in beta. It was not till after launch, when suddenly a big number of those people who vouched for as to how the game should not turn into a second WoW rapidly vanished, and the true consumer base was left behind. Those who actually wanted to play an MMO.

 

That's what you get for listening to that vocal minority pre-launch too much, 90% of them will ditch you in the wink of an eye and never form your potential customer population.

 

EA most likely was more aware of this than BioWare, and to be quite frank, it probably is part of the reason as to why certain heads have been rolling lately. The usual overhead is going out, but certain key figures are going to be replaced with no doubt.

 

The solid base game is there, now there's just the fluff to expand onto it.

 

There were just as many posts about the game not being an MMO as there were what you said. There were many posts saying the game was too single player and not enough group stuff. It was all there.

[meatlocker]

Another thing that has boggled me, is how ship "gear" is, sure you can upgrade your ship, but there's almost no incentive to, there's no engame, there's nothing new, it dosent make your ship look better. If I'm not mistaken one of the largest fun factors of gearing up, is the new-upgraded look, and I really hope swoop racing wouldn't or won't follow the same guideline as it would cut the amusement factor like a knife.

 

You obviously don't play space combat.

[turjake]

People dont know what they do want until someone gives it to them (Steve Jobs, I think). That doesnt stop people wanting all kinds of things. Sometimes you need people with a vision to get anything sensible done. If you try to design by a committee, you will get something with lowest common denominator, something like wow where most of the stuff is copied from somewhere. It is kind of pointless to start to compete with wow trying to create what they already have, most likely you will lose since they have been doing it a lot longer. Edited July 22, 2012 by turjake

[DrDon]

when I see almost none of the perks from KOTOR that we want.

 

a Capital always takes away the lone wolf feeling in a mmo because there are hundreds to thousands of people there sitting around.

 

 

differance is SWTOR is a MMO! if you want the "lone wolf feeling, MMO's arnt for you.

[Selethar]

To add my nickel (taxes being what they are, 2 cents just isn't enough anymore)

 

The BIGGEST failure of this game, being it was a Star Wars theme, is the pitiful space component. Yes, KOTOR had almost no space game but it was a single player game about a Jedi. So yeah, I would expect that. But to not have a comprehensive space game (i.e. not on rails and able to progress your ship just like your character. Even up to possible cap ship command) was a huge loss.

 

We can debate the lack of WoW features till we all die but the above is what stunned me the most. That being said, I am still playing and, overall, I enjoy the game. The cries of "no content" were bogus from the start. This game launched with more content then anything I have seen (and yes, I've played several other titles myself).

 

Too bad it is an EA product. Corporations are so fixated on quartery statements and imaginary pre-calculated ROI (the true weakness of the American business model imo) that it will be a long road to keep this game running for long unless there is some growth. This title will also be at the mercy of the performance of other titles/divisions so slumps in EA Sports etc will just as easily doom this game as whatever it does in it's own right.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Selethar

[Daethorz]

People dont know what they do want until someone gives it to them (Steve Jobs, I think). That doesnt stop people wanting all kinds of things. Sometimes you need people with a vision to get anything sensible done. If you try to design by a committee, you will get something with lowest common denominator, something like wow where most of the stuff is copied from somewhere. It is kind of pointless to start to compete with wow trying to create what they already have, most likely you will lose since they have been doing it a lot longer.

 

Exactly.

 

The lone wolf comment, I ment KOTOR gave me the sence of being a lone wolf. Me, my small group of companions v the universe.

it also has alot to do with "Ill do what i want when i want to!", like Ima go gambling on nar shadda!, the sence of Freedom and non linear content Everyone has to do Every day.

[Soluss]

To add my nickel (taxes being what they are, 2 cents just isn't enough anymore)

 

The BIGGEST failure of this game, being it was a Star Wars theme, is the pitiful space component. Yes, KOTOR had almost no space game but it was a single player game about a Jedi. So yeah, I would expect that. But to not have a comprehensive space game (i.e. not on rails and able to progress your ship just like your character. Even up to possible cap ship command) was a huge loss.

 

We can debate the lack of WoW features till we all die but the above is what stunned me the most. That being said, I am still playing and, overall, I enjoy the game. The cries of "no content" were bogus from the start. This game launched with more content then anything I have seen (and yes, I've played several other titles myself).

 

Too bad it is an EA product. Corporations are so fixated on quartery statements and imaginary pre-calculated ROI (the true weakness of the American business model imo) that it will be a long road to keep this game running for long unless there is some growth. This title will also be at the mercy of the performance of other titles/divisions so slumps in EA Sports etc will just as easily doom this game as whatever it does in it's own right.

 

I agreed with you untill I got to your middle paragraph. The cries of "not enough content" are not bogus. 100's of thousands of players left because they ran out of stuff to do and got bored. That being the case, then Id say lack of content is far from bogus.

[Daethorz]

Sorry, but i don't find a new operation to replace a already existing operation to be Content.

 

WoW Example: Dragonsoul Replaced Firelands that Replaced Bastion & BWD.

 

A New Planet = Content

New Feature giving players something to do = Content

 

Anything that adds More Playtime to the game is content, with the current track of mmos, they just replace a old raid/operation with a new one, they refresh the content that is already there.

 

A new operation or raid is a minimal form of content, many players won't even play them, and eventually it may become a farming ground, like the group finder system, and that gets dull, really fast.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Daethorz

[Soluss]

Sorry, but i don't find a new operation to replace a already existing operation to be Content.

 

WoW Example: Dragonsoul Replaced Firelands that Replaced Bastion & BWD.

 

A New Planet = Content

New Feature giving players something to do = Content

 

Anything that adds More Playtime to the game is content, with the current track of mmos, they just replace a old raid/operation with a new one, they refresh the content that is already there.

 

A new operation or raid is a minimal form of content, many players won't even play them, and eventually it may become a farming ground, like the group finder system, and that gets dull, really fast.

 

So repeatable raids is not content to you... yet a 1 shot planet is?

 

Adding a raid is just as much a content add is adding a planet. A planet in this game can be finished in 1 day. If you have 5 alts... 5 days. If you take 2 days then 10 days.

 

I could easily just turn your post to the opposite and it would be the same thing....

 

Sorry, but i don't find a new planet to replace a already existing planet to be Content.

 

WoW Example: dont know WoW so... " new continent to replace old continent"

 

A New Raid = Content

New Feature giving players something to do = Content

Edited July 22, 2012 by Soluss

[Fornix]

Sorry, but i don't find a new operation to replace a already existing operation to be Content.

 

WoW Example: Dragonsoul Replaced Firelands that Replaced Bastion & BWD.

 

A New Planet = Content

New Feature giving players something to do = Content

 

Anything that adds More Playtime to the game is content, with the current track of mmos, they just replace a old raid/operation with a new one, they refresh the content that is already there.

 

A new operation or raid is a minimal form of content, many players won't even play them, and eventually it may become a farming ground, like the group finder system, and that gets dull, really fast.

 

And it's these sort of ideas which BioWare listened to too much during the development years. Sure, a new planet is content, for 4 hours. Then it's done. What then? Another new planet the next day?

 

No, game development can't out perform the speed by which gamers go through it. Single player games are 'beaten' in 15 - 20 hours on average, if you're lucky you strike a game where you take about 30 - 40 hours to do it. For an MMO, such figures are nothing. With the multiple story lines, SWTOR can offer that to a certain extent, it taking about 100 hours to reach cap due to a certain grind factor along, that times 8. But instead people will just say it's all pretty much the same anyway, so that trick doesn't hold up.

 

The MMO crowd, or the P2P one at least, simply isn't interested in questing for the big part of it. The entire community has based its existence around 3 pillars:

- PvE raiding

- PvP unranked

- PvP ranked

 

The 4th pillar found in it afterwards is the social factor, however that has never been a true driving force in thriving MMO's in the west. Only secondary to a core crowd of players those would slowly drop in.

[Daethorz]

And it's these sort of ideas which BioWare listened to too much during the development years. Sure, a new planet is content, for 4 hours. Then it's done. What then? Another new planet the next day?

 

No, game development can't out perform the speed by which gamers go through it. Single player games are 'beaten' in 15 - 20 hours on average, if you're lucky you strike a game where you take about 30 - 40 hours to do it. For an MMO, such figures are nothing. With the multiple story lines, SWTOR can offer that to a certain extent, it taking about 100 hours to reach cap due to a certain grind factor along, that times 8. But instead people will just say it's all pretty much the same anyway, so that trick doesn't hold up.

 

The MMO crowd, or the P2P one at least, simply isn't interested in questing for the big part of it. The entire community has based its existence around 3 pillars:

- PvE raiding

- PvP unranked

- PvP ranked

 

The 4th pillar found in it afterwards is the social factor, however that has never been a true driving force in thriving MMO's in the west. Only secondary to a core crowd of players those would slowly drop in.

 

yes this is why i feel Swoop Racing is probably the most important thing to swtors future.

[Sookster]

You see.. people actually wanted a "real MMO", not KoToR with a sub, because, at the end of the day, a MMO can only be a MMO and can only break so many rules...

 

Quite the opposite, this isn't even KOTOR with a sub, not at all, it's WoW with Star Wars skins- straight up. KOTOR with a sub would've been nice, no levels, just skilltree for weapon cert/abilities (kinda like TSW's skill wheel) and more interaction with your character than just going through storylines.

[Chrysantemum]

As i have said, to Discourage Snore-Fest Activity of Players sitting in Fleet waiting for ques to pop and doing nothing else, just like WoW, SWTOR needs to innovate with new Features such as Swoop Racing, Gambling /w Pazzak, Dejark @ other games and many other various ideas such as Battlefront Style Warzones and so on, WoW understands this and has been working on Pet Battles for their game, its time for Bioware to figure this out too. And i hope they do before it's too late, because SWTOR has Piles of Potential, but if it goes F2P I fear EA will pressure Bioware to make it P2W.

 

Cool minigames do help a lot. I play Star Trek Online on the side for the space combat, but there really wasn't all that much to do... until they implemented the Duty Officer system about half a year back. Holy hell, what a difference that made. If you don't know what that is, it's sort of a collectable card game within the game. The cards represent officers of your crew with differences in quality and they have specific traits - you can send them on all kinds of different missions, trade them with other players, etc. It's an oddly addictive little minigame and I find myself playing with duty officers far more than doing space combat these days.

 

Though I'd love to see something akin to the duty officer system in swtor, it doesn't need to be all that complicated. It'd be great fun to play pazaak with another player (because we all know from KOTOR that the computer cheats! ). Pod-racing... eh, we already have something like that in the space game, but as much as I like the space game, some proper free roaming space combat would be quite nice.

 

Hm, I suddenly have an overwhelming urge to see how my duty officers are doing...

[SolHalcon]

I seem to remember in the beginning, post after post in these forums saying; We want this, just like WoW, or we want that, just like WoW. Well, they listened it seems.

[Kharnis]

I seem to remember in the beginning, post after post in these forums saying; We want this, just like WoW, or we want that, just like WoW. Well, they listened it seems.

 

Really? Perhaps you could give us an example of a "We want _____ just like WoW" post. And how the devs "listened."

[SWJon]

..., it's WoW with Star Wars skins- straight up. KOTOR with a sub would've been nice, no levels, just skilltree for weapon cert/abilities (kinda like TSW's skill wheel) and more interaction with your character than just going through storylines.

 

KOTOR had levels. AND its progression was linear, as was its skill system. The only difference here is that you could pick what you wanted to specialize in and what you didn't (for instance, I want to focus on swordsmanship, not blasters).

 

Edit: KOTOR's skill system was based on points, but it wasn't a "tree" progression as in MMOs. Perhaps people would like it if BioWare revamped TOR's skill system to be more like this, but invariably, people would complain here as well.

 

I seem to remember in the beginning, post after post in these forums saying; We want this, just like WoW, or we want that, just like WoW. Well, they listened it seems.

 

Yes, I do too. IN fact, it's cyclical. "This game is too much like WoW, make it different --> "This game is not enough like WoW - make it more like it" --> "This game is too much like WoW."

 

The forum folk will never be happy.

Edited July 22, 2012 by SWJon

[SWJon]

Really? Perhaps you could give us an example of a "We want _____ just like WoW" post. And how the devs "listened."

 

Group finder. And now people don't even like that.

[Shingara]

Really? Perhaps you could give us an example of a "We want _____ just like WoW" post. And how the devs "listened."

 

Group finder is the biggest. UI and ranked are others, Recount even though done through parser is another. Also the vicous attacks on anything suggested that wasnt in wow or is different to wow, any sandbox or features that are none combat are jumped on and the posters attacked for it and simply state this is not swg2 or this is not the game for you.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Shingara

[Kharnis]

Seriously? Group finder and UI customisation are the examples you give? Are you actually trying to tell me that the moment someone mentions "group finder," they must automatically be wanting a WoW feature because only WoW has a group finder? Not Rift, or DDO, or LoTRO, or Aion, or any other MMO?

[Valkirus]

differance is SWTOR is a MMO! if you want the "lone wolf feeling, MMO's arnt for you.

 

This is totally not true. I met some Dreadlords in UO who actually prefered to be lone wolfs. They were players who enjoyed running around being feared as a lone wolf who had a nasty bite. If you met a Dreadlord in UO back in it's early days of it's launch, you knew they were really good at what they did.

 

Many players also have little interest in running in grps period. They prefer to play solo and do things at thier own pace. A MMO offers to the solo player a more dynamic , changing world environment when they are playing as they see other players and on occasion get to talk to them or help them in some way. And all of that can be done without ever grouping. But to say a MMO should only be played in groups is trying to enforce your concept of a play style you think is right on others.

 

Keep in mind your goals in a MMO may not allways be the same as others are. Some donot care about the gear grind or being the best PVP'er on thier server. I try to respect all those who have different goals and let them play the way they want to as long as they are not purposely trying to interfere with my enjoyment. I suggest you do the same.

[Valkirus]

Group finder is the biggest. UI and ranked are others, Recount even though done through parser is another. Also the vicous attacks on anything suggested that wasnt in wow or is different to wow, any sandbox or features that are none combat are jumped on and the posters attacked for it and simply state this is not swg2 or this is not the game for you.

 

UI? Lol! I actually much prefer TOR's UI over WoW's...esp after they let me customize it. I wish WoW would do the same. I donot use any addons/mods in WoW. Never have. There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking a good feature in any other MMO and applying it to TOR. And TOR certainly needs to use some.

[Keta]

Quite the opposite, this isn't even KOTOR with a sub, not at all, it's WoW with Star Wars skins- straight up. KOTOR with a sub would've been nice, no levels, just skilltree for weapon cert/abilities (kinda like TSW's skill wheel) and more interaction with your character than just going through storylines.

 

qft

 

/10char

[Lt_Latency]

LOL, they new what they were doing.

 

The said in like 2008 or 2009. It was going to be way more story and single player focused. Now they are passing the buck to the forums lol

[Lt_Latency]

2x post Edited July 22, 2012 by Lt_Latency

[Lt_Latency]

UI? Lol! I actually much prefer TOR's UI over WoW's...esp after they let me customize it. I wish WoW would do the same. I donot use any addons/mods in WoW. Never have. There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking a good feature in any other MMO and applying it to TOR. And TOR certainly needs to use some.

 

You can so almost anything to WoW UI, with a couple of the good mods

 

It's not even close.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Lt_Latency