VG/PT QQ vs Bad Players?

[Esiqual]

Lets also consider that Sniper MM spec has the most power and reliable burst damage in the game, its not even close. Consider:

 

- instant snipe, followthrough, series of shots, ambush, followthrough, execute. This rotataion can be done every 12 seconds without much worry for energy maanagement. And if you didnt count that rotation takes 10.5 seconds to do.

 

The above rotation hits for more then a Pt Pyros opener which takes the same amount GCDs. The only weakness is the sniper must be stationary to do it but thats why they have legshot on a 15 sec CD if not talented to 12 sec. They also have a 50% uptime cc immunity with hunker down and a balistic sheild + ballistic dampeners + sheild probe to compensate for the stationary nature and they can do it from 35 meters beyond even the range of other range classes.

 

So i say the Sniper is going to be the next FOTM and the most QQed within a month or so.

[lpsmash]

1v1, aka planned duel has nothing or very little to do with what happens in a warzone. There is absolutely no surprise that Jedi Shadows performed so well in a 1v1 situation.

 

Unofrtunately, warzones are based around teamplay, having a healer or two (or sometimes none in the case of PUGS) and usually more than 1 person beating on you, and more than you dps'ing down someone (look at how many solo kills you get at the end of the warzone compared to other kills).

 

1v1 can't be takent seriously, I'm sorry. Especially since it doesn't account for healers.

 

Also, snipers are pretty powerful, but if you start the fight at 5 meter in front of him, he's probably going to die vs a melee. That's why stealth classes are very good against snipers, they lose the advantage of cover and long distance.. They are strong 1v1, but only within a team.

Edited July 18, 2012 by lpsmash

[Skolops]

Lets also consider that Sniper MM spec has the most power and reliable burst damage in the game, its not even close. Consider:

 

- instant snipe, followthrough, series of shots, ambush, followthrough, execute. This rotataion can be done every 12 seconds without much worry for energy maanagement. And if you didnt count that rotation takes 10.5 seconds to do.

 

The above rotation hits for more then a Pt Pyros opener which takes the same amount GCDs. The only weakness is the sniper must be stationary to do it but thats why they have legshot on a 15 sec CD if not talented to 12 sec. They also have a 50% uptime cc immunity with hunker down and a balistic sheild + ballistic dampeners + sheild probe to compensate for the stationary nature and they can do it from 35 meters beyond even the range of other range classes.

 

So i say the Sniper is going to be the next FOTM and the most QQed within a month or so.

 

What you describe is not burst at all. Burst is a high amount of damage over the course of one or two GCDs, or 3 at the most. All of an MM Sniper's abilities are somewhat, but not overwhelmingly, hard hitting, but they are consistent. The MM Sniper can put out a strong hit on each attack, but simply strung together over 10 seconds they can be healed through.

 

An MM Sniper's burst would be more like an Explosive Probe, then an Ambush and a Followthrough, which can bring down 7000-8000+ damage in the course of a single global cooldown, as far as actual damage time is concerned. In other words, from the healer's perspective the target is doing fine, and then as soon as the ambush finishes casting, the probe blows and a followthrough hits immediately after (since the ambush cast time has used up the GCD) and so the target ha suddenly dropped by 8k.

 

Compare that to what you describe: 12 - 14k of damage over 10 seconds, something which can be healed through , bubbled, etc.

 

Similarly, the Powertechs nasty burst comes when his detonator and rail shot go boom at nearly the same time, resulting in a giant HP loss nearly instantly, or the Infiltration Shadow's burst when project and force breach go off back to back, resulting in another 8k + damage over 3 seconds or so.

 

Now the difference between these classes and the Powertech is that while the Shadow can only get his nasty burst every 90 seconds or so (a bit less with the correct set bonus), the Sniper can only get his burst every 30 seconds and his really nasty burst every 60, the powertechs can happen twice that often (once per 15 seconds) and just seems to hit harder for whatever reason.

[Macabrae]

Exactly mate, Like someone said earlier, its a rock, paper, scissor system. There really isnt a Over Powered, Win All class. I have no idea why people make classes out to be so...

 

You really have no clue do you? Don't worry I didn't either but have now woken up and saw the light so I will help you do the same. I am here to help.

 

The first thing you MUST realize is that these ppl QQing were trained by the SEAL Team of MMO PVP so if they lose it MUST be a class balance issue and not them. They were trained by the "best of the best of the best SIr!" So anything you say will fall on deaf ears as you are nothing and your opinions mean nothing to them as well as you are just a scrub who knows nothing compared to them.

 

I am glad to bring this to light for you. Now that you know this knowledge you will feel better at the way the QQers think. Glad to be of service and if there is anything else I can do to help let me know.......

[mangarrage]

I dont think snipers will

You honeslty think that people who use 3 keys will want to use over 15?

That standard rotation is just that a rotation. I find it very rare that you can just sit there and do that.

In addition you overestimate the defense

Ballistic dampers and shield are nice the other 2 are pretty much useless.

 

Not to mention most snipers arent MM especially in pvp

 

and im guessing you meant takedown instead of execute

[TheGreatFrosty]

Lets also consider that Sniper MM spec has the most power and reliable burst damage in the game, its not even close. Consider:

 

- instant snipe, followthrough, series of shots, ambush, followthrough, execute. This rotataion can be done every 12 seconds without much worry for energy maanagement. And if you didnt count that rotation takes 10.5 seconds to do.

 

The above rotation hits for more then a Pt Pyros opener which takes the same amount GCDs. The only weakness is the sniper must be stationary to do it but thats why they have legshot on a 15 sec CD if not talented to 12 sec. They also have a 50% uptime cc immunity with hunker down and a balistic sheild + ballistic dampeners + sheild probe to compensate for the stationary nature and they can do it from 35 meters beyond even the range of other range classes.

 

So i say the Sniper is going to be the next FOTM and the most QQed within a month or so.

 

Why do people who don't play sniper talk about playing sniper.

 

Above rotation every 12 seconds isn't going to give you much overall damage, and if you do much between that then you're having energy problems.

 

The assumption of doing an execute is unfair, and completely dependent on the situation (the rotation would have to be V a Sorc and have critis). The second followthrough you will not be able to do, you will have to wait 2-2.5 seconds for the CD to finish after Series of Shots / Ambush.

[Dejected]

I like to think that PT/VG are OP for the same reason that others think they are OP, in that if you don't get the first hit, or even sometimes when you do, you're pretty much boned.

 

I've gone up against a lot of powertech's that just ate my lunch, even though I did everything I could to stop them. That being said I do feel like if I can properly fight one in a 1v1 situation, I could come out the victor about 75% of the time.

 

For instance, yesterday I got into a scuffle with a PT that started like this.

 

HUTTBALL:

 

Running towards the imp ball carrier after dying. Already used force speed, have about 15s left on cooldown. Everything else is up besides force cloak which isn't a dealbreaker for me.

 

I drop down to the mid level ramp towards the first acid pit and notice that I just lost 30% of my hp. Slightly confused, I look behind me and see a PT up on the top ramp, as he was concealed by the fire trap.

 

me: -a wild enemy spotted!- "Engage." >:|

 

initiate force pull! --> Spinning kick, start dps.

 

Whack him a few times, crit project procs, force potency, and boom, 3k project, double strike crits 1500 each hit for another 3k, proc's crit project again, boom another 3k project, with a 1500 upheaval. 15k damage in quite a short time. He pops his DR shield, and I could sense he was about to pop his 4s stun so I resilience in preparation. drop a force in balance for another 2.5k crit ( I have a lot of crit, but not a lot of power :\ stupid stock battlemaster) he has about 3k hp left because he's full aug'd war hero, and I have about 7k left because of I dunno what. In the global cooldown between the force in balance and my execute, he rail shot me for 6.8some odd thousand damage, and his dot finished me off. I was upset, but as I started off that fight getting hit for 5k, I wasn't even mad. The way I see it, if he hadn't gotten the drop on me, he'd have gotten wasted.

[SwordofSodan]

I am a 50 PT and there are a few things i agree with in this thread and a fair bit i dont agree on.

 

First lets clear up a few things first. Saying a class does too much damage without a comparison or a baseline reference is abit pointless. If you use warzone damage numbers then you are using a bad reference point to highlight the problem. Warzone damage includes all forms of damage including fairly pointless dot damage that keeps applying after death. The only damage number that really matters for PT Pyro specs is railshot.

 

First i agree that our damage output is abit to high on railshot. Every other ability including the CGC is perfectly fine as is. So i would agree to a tone down of railshot by taking away the 30% armour pen in superheated rail and reducing firebug surge talent to 7.5% and 15% respectively. This would effectively reduce burst damage down to more mangeable levels for everyone involved.

 

How i would compensate this is by making this talent instead of reapplying the CGC it would place a weaker version of CGC that does 30% of the a normal CGC damage as a seperate dot on the target that lasts for 6 seconds. This would mean the damage is more spread out and little less bursty. The puncture talent should remain as is for all PT specs to take advantage of.

 

The overall damage would be about the same but have a burst decrease of about 18% when you consider my changes.

Yeah I have a 50 PT as well and I wholeheartedly disagree with your 18% nerf to Pyro burst simply because the class partly relies on that burst for survivability. The PT is kind of like the Marauder damage wise, but without the cloak of Pain, Obfuscate and Force Camouflage for added defence and escape. Yes PT has Oil Slick but it's higher up in our Shield spec tree so it's unobtainable. PT's greatest defence is it's offence - period! The PT has no escape ability and really only one defensive cd, so nerfing it's ability to kill would only cause survivability issues with the spec. But as a person with a 50 PT you should know this.

 

There are also many people in this forum with arguments that provide possible solutions to the Pyro burst (such as yourself) but I don't see many arguments for compensation of the removal of that burst. So it's really hard for people like me to take most people who complain about the Pyro serious in the first place. They just look like ignorant whiners for the most part.

[JohnElias]

Give Operatives a 60% armor penetration w/ Acid Blade and an ability like "Explosive Fuel" (http://www.torhead.com/ability/4bd8Fi6/explosive-fuel)

 

Also, take away our healing since I don't want to be standing in the open casting a 2.5s heal on myself while getting beat on by people. (Obviously I don't do that, but people tend to argue that because we can heal ourself, we are fine. If we do go heal ourselves, we must go hide somewhere while our team loses 1 DPS for a short period of time.)

 

Now let's see how many people would like the above changes.

 

It's not always a L2P issue guys. There are good and bad players, but the good players who play a gimped class can do even better on another class. It's been mentioned multiple times, but that's how it is right now.

[xBloodcrazed]

Vanguards are fine.

 

http://i.imgur.com/SGji2.jpg

 

Trolololol

[JohnElias]

Although PTs may not have the best defnsive CDs, they do get 2 that I know of.

 

1. Energy Shield: Reduces all damage taken by 25% for 12 seconds.

 

2. Kolto Overload: Restores 15% of maximum health over 10 seconds.

 

Now, I have seen some PTs in the 20K HP mark because they started stacking endurance since their DPS burst is already favorable. A warzone medpac can give a PT back some decent HP if you pop it under focus fire. PT base damage reduction is around 31%+ due to Heavy Armor. Already that is better than Light and Medium armor classes. Along with the above cool downs, 1v1, or even 2v1 a PT DPS has some decent survivability. If you expect to live under focus fire situations, than too bad.

 

What I am trying to say is that you guys have the necessary tools to survive. You also get an AOE and single target stun that do not break on damage taken. Already that is amazing since most classes have a mezz that breaks upon taking damage.

Edited July 18, 2012 by JohnElias

[Esiqual]

Yeah I have a 50 PT as well and I wholeheartedly disagree with your 18% nerf to Pyro burst simply because the class partly relies on that burst for survivability. The PT is kind of like the Marauder damage wise, but without the cloak of Pain, Obfuscate and Force Camouflage for added defence and escape. Yes PT has Oil Slick but it's higher up in our Shield spec tree so it's unobtainable. PT's greatest defence is it's offence - period! The PT has no escape ability and really only one defensive cd, so nerfing it's ability to kill would only cause survivability issues with the spec. But as a person with a 50 PT you should know this.

 

There are also many people in this forum with arguments that provide possible solutions to the Pyro burst (such as yourself) but I don't see many arguments for compensation of the removal of that burst. So it's really hard for people like me to take most people who complain about the Pyro serious in the first place. They just look like ignorant whiners for the most part.

 

Did you not read the seond half of my post at all? What i said was remove 12% of our armour pen on railshot and bring down our firebug talent by 15%.

 

For compensation we get to have a new dot that is auto applied on railshot seperate to the CGC or incindinary missle dot. This will mean that railshot doesnt reset our or CGC letting it go do its full damage before needing to be reapplied by flame burst and we get to stack 3 dots instead of 2 on the target. So if you play the rotation correctly you get more damage overall while bringing a small portion of the burst back into line.

 

Or i could be some ignorant whiner that knows nothing image that.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Esiqual

[Aaroneus]

I dont think snipers will

You honeslty think that people who use 3 keys will want to use over 15?

That standard rotation is just that a rotation. I find it very rare that you can just sit there and do that.

In addition you overestimate the defense

Ballistic dampers and shield are nice the other 2 are pretty much useless.

 

Not to mention most snipers arent MM especially in pvp

 

and im guessing you meant takedown instead of execute

 

exactly. snipers aren't too complicated to counter. interupt LoS, and when a melee class gets on top of one those defensive CD's don't do a whole lot. Sure, snipers can kite, but being forced to kite means they're effectively taken out of the big-picture equation that is the objective of the wz.

 

Having said that, I am a sniper and I love it. So I am going to trash talk it to discourage FOTM rerollers from doing just that... Whoops just blew my cover (get it? XD).

Edited July 18, 2012 by Aaroneus

[xBloodcrazed]

Although PTs may not have the best defnsive CDs, they do get 2 that I know of.

 

1. Energy Shield: Reduces all damage taken by 25% for 12 seconds.

 

2. Kolto Overload: Restores 15% of maximum health over 10 seconds.

 

Now, I have seen some PTs in the 20K HP mark because they started stacking endurance since their DPS burst is already favorable. A warzone medpac can give a PT back some decent HP if you pop it under focus fire. PT base damage reduction is around 31%+ due to Heavy Armor. Already that is better than Light and Medium armor classes. Along with the above cool downs, 1v1, or even 2v1 a PT DPS has some decent survivability. If you expect to live under focus fire situations, than too bad.

 

What I am trying to say is that you guys have the necessary tools to survive. You also get an AOE and single target stun that do not break on damage taken. Already that is amazing since most classes have a mezz that breaks upon taking damage.

 

pretty sure we would all rather have Awe then neural surge

[chadicus]

Ok, so i have got 50's on both imperial and republic side, currently on Red Eclipse server at the moment, all i ever see when i come on to these forums is bad players complaining that vanguards/powertechs have way to much damage, that they see way to many powertechs, that they are an OP class, that they keep 2/3 shotting them...etc...etc......ETC

 

We did a 1 vs 1 tournament on The Red Eclipse, with all full war hero augmented players, all of them excellent players with full knowlege of there class. Guess who was in the final... 2 shadows

 

Who was in the semi's? 3 Shadows and a Sentinal

 

Quaters? 4 Shadows, 3 sentinals and a Vanguard

 

Anyone see a re-occuring theme here? Im not here to QQ about any class, because whenever I PVP, i dont have any issues beating any class, and i dont have any class that i have a lot of problems with, I just dont understand why people are constantly complaining about VG's/PT's when theres nothing OP about them. They have no cleanses, No good self heals, No invunrability moves, No exit strategies.

 

Each class is excellent in its own right, if you find yourself constantly getting owned by one class, my suggestion is dont look at thats right with that class, look at whats wrong with your play style.

 

opinions please? and please no trolling.

 

How about a 2v2 team tournament? Vanguards/PTs only weakness is no defensive cooldowns. With any healing what-so-ever they go from "strong" to "ludicrous". To use this terribly small sample size and pretend it is relevant to class balance is folly.

[Soljin]

Vanguards are fine.

 

http://i.imgur.com/SGji2.jpg

 

Trolololol

 

That was an extreme match for sure....But thats pretty standard deficit. PT good bad or in the middle will average around 25 to 30% more dmg in a WZ then an equally geared/SKilled player of any other class. Thats regardless if its a super match or your run of the mill Normal WZ. I see it every day. I've never seen anyone pull numbers that high though.

[Funick]

its true vanguards can definitely be beat 1v1... where they shine is group play here's my list of reasons they shine so much in group play:

 

1) Ease of use: probably easiest viable dps rotation (tracer missle spam no longer viable) Their dps allows for easily lined up huge burst and still some of the strongest sustain in the game. it puts so many dots out that even stuns don't slow down dps too much and can even return ammo if specced.

2)Range: hardest hitting ability has 30m range... this means roots/KBs are ineffective at slowing their dps. This also makes assisting especially with multiple vanguards very easy and very powerfull.

3) Mobility: not having to use any casted abilities combined with spamable 10m range snare, good luck kiting vanguards and we can kite and still put out full dps if necessary.

4) Passive Defense: heavy armor and a long lasting defensive cool down, while not as powerful as a shadow or sentinel's defensive cool downs still very effective. also don't have to worry about getting stun locked before getting cool downs off. also this means fewer buttons to press.

5)Stuns: vanguard has both an aoe hard stun and a 30m range 4 sec single target stun. the aoe stun especially used in conjunction with team mates dropping aoe damage can just be devastating. having 30m range on our singe target stun again just makes the class that much easier.

6) Other Goodies: stealth detect, pull and taunts all help us ad a lot of utility to group play and combined with our damage really force your team to focus us over our healers.

 

are they OP? not 1v1 but in group play they provide a bit too much, a bit too easily.

[SwordofSodan]

Did you not read the seond half of my post at all? What i said was remove 12% of our armour pen on railshot and bring down our firebug talent by 15%.

 

For compensation we get to have a new dot that is auto applied on railshot seperate to the CGC or incindinary missle dot. This will mean that railshot doesnt reset our or CGC letting it go do its full damage before needing to be reapplied by flame burst and we get to stack 3 dots instead of 2 on the target. So if you play the rotation correctly you get more damage overall while bringing a small portion of the burst back into line.

 

Or i could be some ignorant whiner that knows nothing image that.

I've read whine after whine in these forums about the same crap and I've gotten used to the fact that most people don't provide compensation for the removal of burst with their "nerf pyro" whines. I apologize for putting you in that catagory and I openly admit that I skimed through your post. With that said, the whining gets old after a while and any post that mearly suggests even a slight nerf to "said class" I either all out ignore or I quickly skim through. Unfortuately I sometimes may miss other important points that might be made because of this.

 

I still disagree with you because, although the dot's are nice, they can still be easily dispelled by certain classes making them almost useless and burst is king for taking down tough healing in a warzone. Try and imagine this game without burst - I don't want to.

Edited July 18, 2012 by SwordofSodan

[TheGreatFrosty]

I've read whine after whine in these forums about the same crap and I've gotten used to the fact that most people don't provide compensation for the removal of burst with their "nerf pyro" whines. I apologize for putting you in that catagory and I openly admit that I skimed through your post. With that said, the whining gets old after a while and any post that mearly suggests even a slight nerf to "said class" I either all out ignore or I quickly skim through. Unfortuately I sometimes may miss other important points that might be made because of this.

 

I still disagree with you because, although the dot's are nice, they can still be easily dispelled by certain classes making them almost useless and burst is king for taking down tough healing in a warzone. Try and imagine this game without burst - I don't want to.

 

Haha. the DOTs being 'almost useless'...

 

The people you get defending this class make me laugh.

 

By certain classes cleansing you mean two, although you probably don't as like many you'd no doubt tell me Sage can dispel the burns too.

 

Scoundrel and Commando can Cleanse a burn DOT but sadly, cleanse is not off GCD and thus 1 GCD to cleanse just once is a hefty price to pay, especially considering how often the pyro can apply the DOT.

 

My point is - the DOTs are some of the most powerful in the game and are far - leaps, bound and mountains - away from being useless.

[SwordofSodan]

Haha. the DOTs being 'almost useless'...

 

The people you get defending this class make me laugh.

 

By certain classes cleansing you mean two, although you probably don't as like many you'd no doubt tell me Sage can dispel the burns too.

 

Scoundrel and Commando can Cleanse a burn DOT but sadly, cleanse is not off GCD and thus 1 GCD to cleanse just once is a hefty price to pay, especially considering how often the pyro can apply the DOT.

 

My point is - the DOTs are some of the most powerful in the game and are far - leaps, bound and mountains - away from being useless.

Yeah, the people you get attacking a class too go figure eh. You would think that they would have better things to do in life rather than whine like little kids in a forum or perhaps just learn to play their class better.

 

I'm not debating what percentage of what particular class(s) in each specific warzone are capable of dispelling a Pyro dot because that is just getting into ridiculous territory imo. I don't care how often another class can cleanse a Pyro dot my point was, that they can, which = a loss of dps for the Pyro.

Edited July 18, 2012 by SwordofSodan

[Militiaguy]

Exactly mate, Like someone said earlier, its a rock, paper, scissor system. There really isnt a Over Powered, Win All class. I have no idea why people make classes out to be so...

 

You do know that a lot of PT are hitting for just as much as snipers right?

 

I understand snipers hitting like a truck because they have to turret......but a mobile class having THAT much burst is just stupid....

 

When I watch a PT burst down a class in about 3 seconds...there is an issue....

 

And your defense is Mara.....lmao they are faceroll too. and if you know how to use your mechanics well enough your pretty much unkillable....

[Dissentus]

I could of told you the top classes before you even listed you were doing it. Everyone knows shadow/assassin is the top 1v1 spec. They have a swiss army knife of abilities that can counter any class. That has absolutely nothing to do with what goes on in a warzone or team based play.

[KBSIP]

You do know that a lot of PT are hitting for just as much as snipers right?

 

I understand snipers hitting like a truck because they have to turret......but a mobile class having THAT much burst is just stupid....

 

When I watch a PT burst down a class in about 3 seconds...there is an issue....

 

And your defense is Mara.....lmao they are faceroll too. and if you know how to use your mechanics well enough your pretty much unkillable....

 

I believe if you're secondarily referencing my post I pointed out practically every class can take down a pyro PT, just as a pyro PT can take down pretty much any class. it all depends on situational factors beyond simply the base stats of the gear or character rotations, namely who gets the drop on who. with current TTK, a 2-3 second opening advantage for any class not designed around that being the norm (looking at you scoundrel/assassin), it going to decide the fight right there, regardless of skill.

 

funfact; people seem to not understand, the PVP buff in warzones still does a flat 15% bonus to damage, defense, and healing in warzones. only the adrenal was nerfed. I saw some guy tell me not to bother cause its just defensive... 4 seconds later I was loling at the flat damage boost on my abilities, and a pvp buff + adrenal + defensive cooldown can make practically any melee class unkillable for a good chunk of time.

[mangarrage]

I love the people who use rock, paper, scissors, but I'll play

 

If dps op is rock who is scissors (prolly sniper but really 1?)

if merc/commado dps is rock who is scissors

if a dps sorc is rock who is scissors

 

if pt is rock why are there so many scissors why so few paper

if a mara is rock why is there so many scissors why so few paper

 

Sure it would work in a 3 class system but it doesn't work in a system with so many classes

[TheGreatFrosty]

Yeah, the people you get attacking a class too go figure eh. You would think that they would have better things to do in life rather than whine like little kids in a forum or perhaps just learn to play their class better.

 

I'm not debating what percentage of what particular class(s) in each specific warzone are capable of dispelling a Pyro dot because that is just getting into ridiculous territory imo. I don't care how often another class can cleanse a Pyro dot my point was, that they can, which = a loss of dps for the Pyro.

 

I'm sorry... are the maths too difficult? :|

 

I'm not whining, I'm simply countering a fundamentally flawed argument. There are two classes capable of dispelling it, no question, no need for debate. Is that really ridiculous territory? 1+1=2?

 

They can cleanse, if they happen to be one of those two classes, but they pay a price and thus will seldom do it. For a scoundrel / commando it'll be a DPS race and they won't have the time to spend the GCD/energy on a cleanse, unless they've somehow managed to LOS the 100% mobile Pyro with the slow debuff attached.