VG/PT QQ vs Bad Players?

[inderraj]

Ok, so i have got 50's on both imperial and republic side, currently on Red Eclipse server at the moment, all i ever see when i come on to these forums is bad players complaining that vanguards/powertechs have way to much damage, that they see way to many powertechs, that they are an OP class, that they keep 2/3 shotting them...etc...etc......ETC

 

We did a 1 vs 1 tournament on The Red Eclipse, with all full war hero augmented players, all of them excellent players with full knowlege of there class. Guess who was in the final... 2 shadows

 

Who was in the semi's? 3 Shadows and a Sentinal

 

Quaters? 4 Shadows, 3 sentinals and a Vanguard

 

Anyone see a re-occuring theme here? Im not here to QQ about any class, because whenever I PVP, i dont have any issues beating any class, and i dont have any class that i have a lot of problems with, I just dont understand why people are constantly complaining about VG's/PT's when theres nothing OP about them. They have no cleanses, No good self heals, No invunrability moves, No exit strategies.

 

Each class is excellent in its own right, if you find yourself constantly getting owned by one class, my suggestion is dont look at thats right with that class, look at whats wrong with your play style.

 

opinions please? and please no trolling.

[KBSIP]

Vanguards and Powertechs in the Assault/Pyro spec have 0 escape mechanisms, and no method to survive extreme incoming burst. A good sentinel/mara should be more than capable of going pound-for-pound with any Pyro PT. A good operative can go pound for pound with a Pyro PT if they manage their opener. Snipers can pick them apart when played effectively, and juggernauts can also perform well, especially in the smash spec (pyro PT has no access to reduced AOE damage intake unlike a few other high burster melee). assassins are effective in both the tanking spec and infiltration, haven't seen how madness performs but I assume non-burst specs are always sub par in PVP. Sorcerers who have mastered their kiting skills and/or pillar hugging + roots can take down pyros effectively. The only class I can think of in DPS spec that should never beat a pyro is a mercenary DPS, but IMHO merc DPS mechanics for PVP are pretty broken to their detriment at the moment.

[inderraj]

Exactly mate, Like someone said earlier, its a rock, paper, scissor system. There really isnt a Over Powered, Win All class. I have no idea why people make classes out to be so...

[OwnzYou]

Heavy Armor

Good ranged DPS

Great melee DPS

Can do his/her damage on the run

 

You can see how some people might be leaning toward "overpowered" can't you? I'm not saying the class is broken, heck no. It's just a little more strong than other "lesser" classes.

 

People already know Assassin/Shadow and Sentinel/Marauder are "overpowered" as well. It's not people JUST complaining about Powertechs, you can't honestly think that can you?

 

Marauder has too much survivability

DPS Powertech has either too much survivability or DPS.... or some combination of the 2

 

DPS-Tank Shadow is just a huge trainwreck. Unfortunately there isn't some miracle fix right now, since you can't tone down Tank Spec with DPS Gear.... without COMPLETELY screwing over ACTUAL TANK Shadows, or the other 2 DPS Trees for Shadow, which could use a little bit of love (just a little)

[FodderofCannon]

Vanguards and Powertechs in the Assault/Pyro spec have 0 escape mechanisms, and no method to survive extreme incoming burst. A good sentinel/mara should be more than capable of going pound-for-pound with any Pyro PT. A good operative can go pound for pound with a Pyro PT if they manage their opener. Snipers can pick them apart when played effectively, and juggernauts can also perform well, especially in the smash spec (pyro PT has no access to reduced AOE damage intake unlike a few other high burster melee). assassins are effective in both the tanking spec and infiltration, haven't seen how madness performs but I assume non-burst specs are always sub par in PVP. Sorcerers who have mastered their kiting skills and/or pillar hugging + roots can take down pyros effectively. The only class I can think of in DPS spec that should never beat a pyro is a mercenary DPS, but IMHO merc DPS mechanics for PVP are pretty broken to their detriment at the moment.

 

I will agree with snipers, sents and maybe Sins. But Sorc?? On my pyro I have never, ever been killed by a sorc alone. Hundred of sorcs dead, never once. Sorry but that was far-fetched.

[Skolops]

Well, I think that the truth is your tournament isn't really especially meaningful as any kind of evidence on the issue as , for a variety of reasons.

 

First, its a very small sample size covering only a limited selection of players in the grand scheme of things. Those involved may have considered those players to be good or excellent representatives of their respective classes, but that doesn't necessarily mean its true, and more to the point, its still only a small sample size. On the other hand, you have the large sample set of VG/PTs topping the charts in warzones very consistently.

 

Perhaps importantly is the second point, which is that your test doesn't accurately represent a real PvP scenario. 1v1s are one thing, and they're certainly important. In some ways, warzones are really just a composite of a whole bunch of 1v1s. At the same time, they're really not in many other ways because of the various dynamics 8v8 entail, and it is in this setting in particular that people believe powertechs to be too strong.

 

Fighting 1v1 with all cooldowns up is one matter. Fighting in the middle of the hectic battlefield of a warzone, with the ability to bounce from player to player, each focused on something different (and potentially other than the PT/VG), where heals are being dropped all around and are such an important factor, is something else entirely, and in this setting powertechs are very strong. Those two shadows would, I'm sure, not have had the same success against the VG if their resilience and bubble had already been used, as is commonly the case in a warzone, of if they weren't able to dedicate their full attention to the VG and so didn't recognize the precise moment to pop those cooldowns, etc.

 

This isn't to say there is not a certain skill in being able to manage all of these various attention points in a warzone - there is. The point is simply that it makes for a very different dynamic from a 1v1.

 

To get more specific into why people have big problems with VG/PTs, think of it by comparing the VG/PT to classes of similar roles: DPS, and, in particular, burst DPS. There are really two classes that can provide this: Infiltration Shadow/Assassins and Gunslingers/Snipers. You could say scoundrels/ops fit the same role, but their entire approach is so different we can put them aside for the time being.

 

Now with these other classes, they can generate strong burst, but only once every relatively great while. An infiltration shadow's really scary burst is reliant on a double cooldown, which can only be executed really once ever minute and a half or so. A good gunslinger can do his biggest burst once about every minute, and a slightly smaller but still decent one every 30 seconds - though the downside here is that it requires a lot of things to go right for him in terms of enemy positioning.

 

On the other hand, a pyrotech PT or the VG equivalent can execute his massive burst multiple times in the same time window. It's based on procs, which are random and so there is some downside there, but in practice they proc plenty often enough to vastly outpace the GS and Shadow timing windows.

 

I could go on, but I think this is a good place to start with.

[KBSIP]

I will agree with snipers, sents and maybe Sins. But Sorc?? On my pyro I have never, ever been killed by a sorc alone. Hundred of sorcs dead, never once. Sorry but that was far-fetched.

 

you've never played a good sorcerer then. they can pull it off, though its a challenge. there's barely anyone that actually knows how to make the most out of that class, which means it'll be getting dumbed down soon.

[inderraj]

By good ranged dps im guessing your refering so our only good damage HIB right? because the rest suck, mortay volley was nerfed and compared to forcequake and that lightning storm doesnt do much, full auto does virtually nothing, and hammer shot is a pea shooter, its only HIB thats our ranged move.

 

Heavy armor isnt much when compared to medium armor that can stealth at will mid combat, or become 100% invunrable. I mean ive played every class to date and the easiest ive found on pvp is a shadow, as if im about to die, i stealth and force run out, regen my health then come back for seconds, lol.

 

Vanguards have good damage output simply because they have nothing else to fall back on unlike other classes, if they nerf there damage output as well, you might as well hang em up like a pinatta and take potshots, because they will be pretty much useless for anything else.

 

Ive heard people talking of rated teams with 6 PT's/vanguards. That is just silly, and utter BS imo. No team would do that, People are just QQ'ing for the sake of QQ'ing because a good vanguard player steamrolled them that day. Ive beated every class and been beaten by every class in pvp, its not about classes, its about individual players.

[TheronFett]

First, I agree with the OP. VG/PT are not overpowered at all. They have high damage in a PvP setting where high damage is often king. To offset that, they have low defense. It's really that simple.

 

I will agree with snipers, sents and maybe Sins. But Sorc?? On my pyro I have never, ever been killed by a sorc alone. Hundred of sorcs dead, never once. Sorry but that was far-fetched.

 

Pyro/Assault spec is made to destroy Sorc/Sage, they are the hard counter to that spec. There's no better cloth killer in the game in my opinion.

[Skolops]

Heavy Armor

Good ranged DPS

Great melee DPS

Can do his/her damage on the run

 

You can see how some people might be leaning toward "overpowered" can't you? I'm not saying the class is broken, heck no. It's just a little more strong than other "lesser" classes.

 

People already know Assassin/Shadow and Sentinel/Marauder are "overpowered" as well. It's not people JUST complaining about Powertechs, you can't honestly think that can you?

 

Marauder has too much survivability

DPS Powertech has either too much survivability or DPS.... or some combination of the 2

 

DPS-Tank Shadow is just a huge trainwreck. Unfortunately there isn't some miracle fix right now, since you can't tone down Tank Spec with DPS Gear.... without COMPLETELY screwing over ACTUAL TANK Shadows, or the other 2 DPS Trees for Shadow, which could use a little bit of love (just a little)

 

I have to say this is the biggest myth in the game right now, next to concealment operatives being underpowered. Tank specced Shadows/Assassins in DPS gear do not produce nearly the DPS of the true DPS classes. They do produce greater DPS than the other tank specs, but then their PvP tanking isn't really as good all around, so it balances out to some degree.

[warultima]

What happens to all the super sorcs that says sorcs are the best 1v1 class? Is the outcome rigged?

 

 

FAKE!!!

[inderraj]

On the other hand, a pyrotech PT or the VG equivalent can execute his massive burst multiple times in the same time window. It's based on procs, which are random and so there is some downside there, but in practice they proc plenty often enough to vastly outpace the GS and Shadow timing windows.

 

I could go on, but I think this is a good place to start with.

 

Like i said, VG's/PT's have excellent output simple because they have nothing else to fall back on. Slingers/snipers can cover, and entrench which makes them invunrable to anything, pulls, cc's, throwbacks, jumps etc, then they throw you back, ambush, snipe, followshot, dead. its as simple as that for them. Shadows/assains can stealth out, black out, regen and come back in and do amazing amounts of dps again.

 

Whereas vanguards can keep up the burst, once were engaged, were engaged, theres nothing else they can do, nowhere they can go, no defensive systems they can fall back on, nothing.

[inderraj]

And i might be going out on a limb here but im guessing skolops is a shadow lol

[TKMaster]

ppl tend to cry about my FB spam alot.

 

/shrug.

[skotish]

By good ranged dps im guessing your refering so our only good damage HIB right? because the rest suck, mortay volley was nerfed and compared to forcequake and that lightning storm doesnt do much, full auto does virtually nothing, and hammer shot is a pea shooter, its only HIB thats our ranged move.

 

Heavy armor isnt much when compared to medium armor that can stealth at will mid combat, or become 100% invunrable. I mean ive played every class to date and the easiest ive found on pvp is a shadow, as if im about to die, i stealth and force run out, regen my health then come back for seconds, lol.

 

Vanguards have good damage output simply because they have nothing else to fall back on unlike other classes, if they nerf there damage output as well, you might as well hang em up like a pinatta and take potshots, because they will be pretty much useless for anything else.

 

Ive heard people talking of rated teams with 6 PT's/vanguards. That is just silly, and utter BS imo. No team would do that, People are just QQ'ing for the sake of QQ'ing because a good vanguard player steamrolled them that day. Ive beated every class and been beaten by every class in pvp, its not about classes, its about individual players.

Whats you Vanguards name so i can look out for you am on the red eclipse rep side more to the point there are no Pt on the imp side that are bad period

[Skolops]

Like i said, VG's/PT's have excellent output simple because they have nothing else to fall back on. Slingers/snipers can cover, and entrench which makes them invunrable to anything, pulls, cc's, throwbacks, jumps etc, then they throw you back, ambush, snipe, followshot, dead. its as simple as that for them. Shadows/assains can stealth out, black out, regen and come back in and do amazing amounts of dps again.

 

Whereas vanguards can keep up the burst, once were engaged, were engaged, theres nothing else they can do, nowhere they can go, no defensive systems they can fall back on, nothing.

 

That may be true, but again, keep in mind that all of those abilities you mention for other classes are on cooldown, along with their burst. This means that if a VG comes across a Shadow tank or sniper without his cooldowns (defensive and burst) then the VG has a huge advantage and the ability to kill that Shadow or Sniper, and because the VG burst is more readily available it's essentially statistically guaranteed that the VG is going to get to do this many times in a warzone.

 

On top of this, remember that the VG is playing a team game and he does have something to rely on - his heals. Now, what beats heals? Well apart from the heavily coordinated stun/DPS synchronization that a good rated team can put out - and even to some degree as a part of that coordiation - burst does, of course, which is why its so important in PvP. In a warzone, the PT/VG is able to execute his burst over and over to counter his enemy's heals while his enemies are still waiting for his cooldowns and the VG can be healed through the lower sustained damage that's coming in on him.

[OwnzYou]

Like i said, VG's/PT's have excellent output simple because they have nothing else to fall back on. Slingers/snipers can cover, and entrench which makes them invunrable to anything, pulls, cc's, throwbacks, jumps etc, then they throw you back, ambush, snipe, followshot, dead. its as simple as that for them. Shadows/assains can stealth out, black out, regen and come back in and do amazing amounts of dps again.

 

Whereas vanguards can keep up the burst, once were engaged, were engaged, theres nothing else they can do, nowhere they can go, no defensive systems they can fall back on, nothing.

This is twice you've overstated the veracity of the Shadow's vanish move "Force Cloak". Yes, you CAN do that, but it's also on a 2 minute cooldown, AND let's not mention you don't usually even drop out of combat instantly. Also, in a 1v1 situation, it works both ways; the Shadow drops out of combat, SO DO YOU. Use this time to heal up as well. I've long since stopped trying to "find" them after they vanish, just hit the Quick Heal button and unfortunately you just gotta wait for them to pop out on you.

[Skolops]

And i might be going out on a limb here but im guessing skolops is a shadow lol

 

I've played many classes to 50. My Shadow (and an Assassin from a reroll) are my best geared and highest valor toons, but I've experienced every AC on one side of the force or the other.

[iphobia]

Pyro/Assault spec is made to destroy Sorc/Sage, they are the hard counter to that spec. There's no better cloth killer in the game in my opinion.

 

They are our hardcounter, aswell as Marauders(Anni/Carnage) and Vengeance Juggernaut. See the problem there?

 

While 1 Pyro may be countered easily, what do you do against teams who stack them (3+)?

3 guys running around, hitting targets on 30m with Railshot that hits even tanks for 4k+?

The damage those teams put out is just retarded, I stated leaving the game as soon as I see that the enemy team has more than 2 Pyro PT's and this seems to happen more and more often every day.

 

It isn't the new FOTM (together with Marauder) just because the class is fine and just as good as the other classes.

A blind, deaf, brain dead monkey could play a Pyro PT and have success with it.

[Skolops]

This is twice you've overstated the veracity of the Shadow's vanish move "Force Cloak". Yes, you CAN do that, but it's also on a 2 minute cooldown, AND let's not mention you don't usually even drop out of combat instantly. Also, in a 1v1 situation, it works both ways; the Shadow drops out of combat, SO DO YOU. Use this time to heal up as well. I've long since stopped trying to "find" them after they vanish, just hit the Quick Heal button and unfortunately you just gotta wait for them to pop out on you.

 

This is a good point, and especially against a VG/PT. The only way for the Shadow to escape combat is if his Resilience AND his Force Cloak are up at the same time, otherwise the DOTs will knock him out immediately. From all the time I've played my Shadow, I'd say that this scenario doesn't really come up in really meaningful combat that often. Normally, when you're trying to take or defend a node you'll have spent your Resilience at some point before you want to go using the Force Cloak, which you tend to save for when you really need it because of its long cooldown. You would also really never use it in huttball, because you need to save that resilience for ball carrying. The only real situations where I can think of that you'd necessarily have the chance to Resilience/Force Cloak would be when harassing an enemy node solo somewhere.

[inderraj]

I've played many classes to 50. My Shadow (and an Assassin from a reroll) are my best geared and highest valor toons, but I've experienced every AC on one side of the force or the other.

 

thought so, thats why your defending them so heavily. My main is a infiltration shadow, which does only PVP. My main PVE class is a Vanguard. I just hate the fact that all this QQ'ing about pt's and vanguard is just ruining everyones PVE game as well. IMO anyone that says this and that is OP is BS and they just cant play well against that class. And if you thinking of team game, every class can get the same heals then a sniper with a pocket healer can outdo a vanguard at any time, marrauders with pocket healers can take me down in seconds, even if i pop every move in my arsenal and he uses rage, hell take me down to 0% within seconds.

 

A blind, deaf, dumb and retarted monkey could play a marra/sent. All it takes is rage (or the equivilent) and master strike (or the equivilent) which hits at like 10k and which cant be stopped. The whole OP argument is BS. No class is completely kill-proof. Every class is brilliant in the right hands.

 

which was my point

[iphobia]

A blind, deaf, dumb and retarted monkey could play a marra/sent. All it takes is rage (or the equivilent) and master strike (or the equivilent) which hits at like 10k and which cant be stopped. The whole OP argument is BS. No class is completely kill-proof. Every class is brilliant in the right hands.

 

which was my point

 

If you do it right, you can avoid the burst of a Marauder.

Well, you can NOT avoid the burst of a Pyro PT, since the hard hitting abilities (RS and TD) are instant, on 30m range and need no setup.

Their big range also makes them nealy impossible to kite (unless you are a 31pt. Madness Sorc) due to free slows on proccs and the pull.

 

Pyro PT is by far the easiest class to play, deal with it.

It's already brilliant if played by a mediocre player.

[OwnzYou]

. Every class is brilliant in the right hands.

 

which was my point

With the exception of Rage Marauder lol

[Skolops]

thought so, thats why your defending them so heavily. My main is a infiltration shadow, which does only PVP. My main PVE class is a Vanguard. I just hate the fact that all this QQ'ing about pt's and vanguard is just ruining everyones PVE game as well. IMO anyone that says this and that is OP is BS and they just cant play well against that class. And if you thinking of team game, every class can get the same heals then a sniper with a pocket healer can outdo a vanguard at any time, marrauders with pocket healers can take me down in seconds, even if i pop every move in my arsenal and he uses rage, hell take me down to 0% within seconds.

 

A blind, deaf, dumb and retarted monkey could play a marra/sent. All it takes is rage (or the equivilent) and master strike (or the equivilent) which hits at like 10k and which cant be stopped. The whole OP argument is BS. No class is completely kill-proof. Every class is brilliant in the right hands.

 

which was my point

 

Couple points. Remember that the key is that the vanguard with his heals is going to be able to use his anti-heal burst far more often than the sniper/whatever with his. A good healer should be able to heal the vanguard through most of the non-burst damage, unless he's being focused very heavily, and should only really need to worry about the burst - but that's only coming on cooldown. The sniper's healer, on the other hand, needs to contend with that HiB or RS fa more often.

 

Second, I'd just say that vanguards (and shadows) have, IMO, a lower skill ceiling than a marauder or juggernaut. The reason is that vanguards - and shadows, to a lesser degree - are quasi-melee classes. Most of their key abilities are 10m range or more, which is not that hard to get into and stick with on an opponent, whereas Warrior/Knight classes are pure, uber melee - 4m-5m range for virtually everything except a few peripheral abilities, and the skill it takes to stay on a an even somewhat competent player in this range when he is trying to kite, strafe, get behind, and otherwise get out of the danger of your attack is much greater.

[Twor]

Vanguards and Powertechs in the Assault/Pyro spec have 0 escape mechanisms, and no method to survive extreme incoming burst. A good sentinel/mara should be more than capable of going pound-for-pound with any Pyro PT. A good operative can go pound for pound with a Pyro PT if they manage their opener. Snipers can pick them apart when played effectively, and juggernauts can also perform well, especially in the smash spec (pyro PT has no access to reduced AOE damage intake unlike a few other high burster melee). assassins are effective in both the tanking spec and infiltration, haven't seen how madness performs but I assume non-burst specs are always sub par in PVP. Sorcerers who have mastered their kiting skills and/or pillar hugging + roots can take down pyros effectively. The only class I can think of in DPS spec that should never beat a pyro is a mercenary DPS, but IMHO merc DPS mechanics for PVP are pretty broken to their detriment at the moment.

 

If just more people would actually read that and play according to that. Sadly as usual 70% of the people in this thread ignore whats posted and think that heavy armor is a great defense along with our one defensive CD.

 

@skolops range vs melee argument, thats why marauders/sents have a gap closer on a 15 sec CD, a medium duraion slow and force camo...

Edited July 18, 2012 by Twor