Tuscad Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 R-r-r-r-r-ragequit! - "Come, work with us, we will make great game and you wil be able to unleash your vision" - "Now do this and this because people are growing restless and we know better what is good for a game" - "Game took a hit, apparently you messed something up, we can't keep such big team, half of your friends no longer work here" - "Work, work, work, not on this, on that, can't you see players crying? Work!" - "What you mean by 'I can't work that fast with reduced team'? Oh, and your lest idea - NO." - "What you mean by 'I'm leaving'?" Some people stay on game because they need this work or don't want to let players down, others just leave. Only good thing this could mean, is possibility that EA will realize that they don't own people. Yeah, that's gonna happen. Funniest post I have seen all day and yet it is sort of sad because it is true. 10 out of 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlyxDinas Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I'd be curious to see how quickly Vogel moves to a new game's development. People are right to note that these sort of rotations aren't exactly uncommon for MMOs. We can, if we want, attribute this to some sort of ship jumping mindset but I'm not sure the business realities would honestly back that notion up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKMaster Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 It's like a train wreck. I'm sorry, I can't help it. I'm not sure why this would concern you. Most of you seem more concerned about my entertainment and what I do with my free time than the fact that you are clinging to a sinking ship. I would be evaluating my priorities if I were defending this game on the forums rather than playing it, yet still making remarks about how other people should have better things to do with their time. I'd evaluate my priorities if i payed money to cry about something i dont enjoy every month, also im at work and cant log in ATM, thanks for caring though. See kid i've been in the genre over 10 years now and TBH youre just another troll that thinks his passive agressive flaming is original, sorry, i saw that for the first time in EQ. Try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celebrus Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I'd evaluate my priorities if i payed money to cry about something i dont enjoy every month, also im at work and cant log in ATM, thanks for caring though. See kid i've been in the genre over 10 years now and TBH youre just another troll that thinks his passive agressive flaming is original, sorry, i saw that for the first time in EQ. Try again. Yet here you are. I didn't try to begin with. This comes naturally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealCandyMan Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I blame the community. Too many selfish "I want it now" players in the MMO genre. MMOs take a LOT of money to create, and once created it still takes much time and even more money to become great. WoW was 10 times worse at launch, but got lucky and was given the chance to grow. And now since WoW is where it is, people just expect to have all the same features and more right at launch. Don't get me wrong, EA/Bioware has made some bad choices as well, but I definately feel the community is to blame even more. So 200 million dollars isn't enough? SWTOR had a bigger budget then any other MMO in history... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qarran Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Been through layoffs several times. Not as one who has been laid off, but as one who has remained for whatever reason. And I can tell you this, when the leaders, especially at high levels are laid off, it doesn't mean as much as you would think. The grunts still do their day to day and follow the plan previously established. However when leaders are laid off preceding or during a reorg? Holy crap. That just maximizes the turmoil. Plans and strategy have to be reassessed, not to mention personnel and talent decisions. That maybe the biggest take away here. Is the game in jeopardy? No, I don't think so. Are the timelines for the release of patches and or content in jeopardy? Yup. They sure are. And BTW, these type of changes affect morale before during and after they happen. Usually, most employees will know of the impending doom. Real life sucks sometimes. So, good luck Rich. I'm sure you will land on your feet. I hope SWTOR lands on its feet too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celebrus Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 So 200 million dollars isn't enough? SWTOR had a bigger budget then any other MMO in history... They had the resources, the manpower, the skill, and the time required to give us a ground breaking original MMO. The fact remains that it is simply easier to blame the person you see posting in this thread for the failure of the game than it is to blame a faceless, nameless, and now probably jobless Bioware employee for failing. People are going to blame the community, no matter how poorly aimed their anger may be, the community is an easy scape goat because the people that post on the forums can be directly blamed. I'm not surprised to see people simply taking the low road and pointing a finger at the most convenient target, happens all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaltastic Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 The people who already don't like the game can go ahead and worry about this. I'm gonna just keep playing. ^ Exactly. Since Activision stopped selling Atari 2600 games with the subtitle 'by David Crane" I think I stopped caring what individuals contributed to a particular game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFKGCWBOT Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I had a friend that would say this game would never fail for many, many, many years. F2P wouldn't happen for many, many, many, years, and would be way better than SWG, which he said back in august 2011. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogunOne Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Daniel Ericson walks into the Bioware offices on Wednesday and calls James Ohlen when he finds the lights off and no one at their desks. Daniel:: Hi James you better get down here and see this man, this is absolutely too weird the only thing still talking are the voice overs. James:: Really, hold the phone up so I can hear. ….and the rest plays out like this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlyxDinas Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 However when leaders are laid off preceding or during a reorg? Holy crap. The key thing here, however, is that he wasn't laid off. Likewise for Zoeller. It's not entirely common to see this sort of shuffling in a long term, service based game. I think this story would be far more insidious if Vogel was canned. But he wasn't. He's a guy with a particular set of skills in starting up MMO services. Likely, he merely found alternative offer. People in this field tend to studio jump more often than you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Mordrid Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 So 200 million dollars isn't enough? SWTOR had a bigger budget then any other MMO in history... I know right?! A great chunk of that money went to story and voice actors though, which is a LOT of development that no other mmo even has (at least nowhere near to the degree TOR does). I certainly don't claim to know how these things are developed or how much money it takes, but I have yet to see a new mmo that has EVERYTHING in it at launch that the fans "must have" in order to keep subs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuscad Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 And now since WoW is where it is, people just expect to have all the same features and more right at launch. . It is called setting the bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaltom Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 People are going to blame the community, no matter how poorly aimed their anger may be, the community is an easy scape goat because the people that post on the forums can be directly blamed. I'm not surprised to see people simply taking the low road and pointing a finger at the most convenient target, happens all the time. If a company does something wrong I vote with my wallet. Not only do I leave but I usually drive the point home by boycotting their product(s) for a year or so. If I thought swtor was a low quality game then I would unsub. I don't point a finger at the community in-game, the community on the forums on the other hand... The community on the forums is pretty rancid, and I have a feeling it has made potential new players shy away from trying a game that they might just love. That feeling is slightly lessened by the free-to-15 trial that started recently. I'm praying those new players don't view the forums before trying swtor. If they login they will find the community there to be much more inviting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deewe Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) I blame the community. Too many selfish "I want it now" players in the MMO genre. MMOs take a LOT of money to create, and once created it still takes much time and even more money to become great. WoW was 10 times worse at launch, but got lucky and was given the chance to grow. And now since WoW is where it is, people just expect to have all the same features and more right at launch. Don't get me wrong, EA/Bioware has made some bad choices as well, but I definately feel the community is to blame even more. Estimates are around $200 millions so 3 times Rift budget, 4,5x AoC and much more LotRo.Time frame 6 years, ie 1,5x any MMO development. And you blame the community? Edited July 17, 2012 by Deewe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tic- Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) I blame the community. Too many selfish "I want it now" players in the MMO genre. MMOs take a LOT of money to create, and once created it still takes much time and even more money to become great. WoW was 10 times worse at launch, but got lucky and was given the chance to grow. And now since WoW is where it is, people just expect to have all the same features and more right at launch. Don't get me wrong, EA/Bioware has made some bad choices as well, but I definately feel the community is to blame even more. Blame the community all you like. People won't play/pay for something that isn't fun. Sort of makes sense to me. Your job as a game designer is to make fun games. If you can't produce that, people tend to not want you working for them, especially when they give you a ridiculous amount of money to make said game. /shrug The main question every developer should ask themselves before the game hits the shelves... "Is this fun?" Not "will this be great in 1 or 2 or 3 years..." Edited July 17, 2012 by Tic- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celebrus Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) If a company does something wrong I vote with my wallet. Not only do I leave but I usually drive the point home by boycotting their product(s) for a year or so. If I thought swtor was a low quality game then I would unsub. I don't point a finger at the community in-game, the community on the forums on the other hand... The community on the forums is pretty rancid, and I have a feeling it has made potential new players shy away from trying a game that they might just love. That feeling is slightly lessened by the free-to-15 trial that started recently. I'm praying those new players don't view the forums before trying swtor. If they login they will find the community there to be much more inviting. WoW's forum community has been absolutely volatile since day one, it's actually much better now than it was during the first year of WoW's lifespan. This forum community deserves blame for ToR's failure in the same way that WoW's community deserves the credit for it's success. That is to say: not at all. Edited July 17, 2012 by Celebrus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qarran Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) The key thing here, however, is that he wasn't laid off. Likewise for Zoeller. It's not entirely common to see this sort of shuffling in a long term, service based game. I think this story would be far more insidious if Vogel was canned. But he wasn't. He's a guy with a particular set of skills in starting up MMO services. Likely, he merely found alternative offer. People in this field tend to studio jump more often than you think. Fair enough. That may be the case. I'm skeptical though because VPs and other high ranking executive are rarely "laid off". What happens is, they are given a choice to quit and get their golden parachute or get laid off with no parachute. The latter can happen but rarely does. So my question would be, did he really leave on his own account or did he take the golden parachute? Nevertheless, the impact will be the same on the BW team. Again, I'm making generalizations based on my experiences. Edited July 17, 2012 by Qarran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EduardoJN Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Estimates are around $200 millions so 3 times Rift budget, 4,5x AoC and much more LotRo.Time frame 6 years, ie 1,5x any MMO development. And you blame the community? In times on despair, someone has to blame it on something. Im surprised he didnt blamed it on Canada! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urael Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 That is to say: not at all. We agree! Who would have thought! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamLKvist Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Fair enough. That may be the case. I'm skeptical though because VPs and other high ranking executive are rarely "laid off". What happens is, they are given a choice to quit and get their golden parachute or get laid off with no parachute. The latter can happen but rarely does, so my question would be, did he really leave on his own account or did he take the golden parachute. Nevertheless, the impact will be the same on the BW team. Again, I'm making generalizations based on my experiences. This, obviously. Its naive to say he left on his own. Personally though I feel more hopeful the more of them I see go because frankly. The game is good, the direction of the game is a catastrophy - the legacy system etc. The game might die but I'm convinced we're better off now than before. Now find someone competent to fill the void..! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlyxDinas Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) Fair enough. That may be the case. I'm skeptical though because VPs and other high ranking executive are rarely "laid off". What happens is, they are given a choice to quit and get their golden parachute or get laid off with no parachute. The latter can happen but rarely does, so my question would be, did he really leave on his own account or did he take the golden parachute. It's a fair question. But I've never given much credence to notions of corporate nefariousness in cases like this, even as much as I acknowledge the reality. This is a field in which a product is technically never "finished" and yet, to keep working on the singular product after release can be fatiguing creatively. I would wait to see what Vogel's next move is. It will inform us about his decision here more than any level of idle speculation. Edited July 17, 2012 by AlyxDinas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishfino Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Estimates are around $200 millions so 3 times Rift budget, 4,5x AoC and much more LotRo.Time frame 6 years, ie 1,5x any MMO development. And you blame the community? Didn't this also start out as KotOR 3? It has that "It was supposed to be a sequel, but we were told to change it halfway through" feel to it. The tacked on content. The way the game just ENDS at a certain point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyoro Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) Poor EA, everything just seems to go from bad to worse for them. Of course, my sentiments are with the dude that just got sacked. Edited July 17, 2012 by Nyoro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaltom Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) WoW's forum community has been absolutely volatile since day one, it's actually much better now than it was during the first year of WoW's lifespan. This forum community deserves blame for ToR's failure in the same way that WoW's community deserves the credit for it's success. That is to say: not at all. Different game, different time, different demographic, different IP. Apples to apples please, not apples to oranges. Edited July 17, 2012 by Thaltom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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