MCesca Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Find a good guild and trying running with them most of the time. The rules become apparent right away, and anyone who doesn't play by them usually gets kicked. You'll end up getting less grief about the little things like needs rolls this way. Usually if we run an Operation in my guild, the guild leader dishes out equipment on a need basis himself. Basically he asks for /roll between multiple players who need the same items, and calls for /roll on all greed items that no one has an actual need for for their own character. If we have to pick up a Pug for a raid or something, we spell it out to them in advance that this is how we do things so that there's no confusion. It works great because in the end no one is claiming that their Smuggler needs that Jedi Knight chest piece because they need to give it to Bowdaar. But hey, if all the Knights are good, then the Smuggler has an equal chance to win it on a greed roll as everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigiles Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 The devs are working on just such a system to counter these issues. And the Suggestion Box is at the top of the General forum. Thank you, I will keep this in mind for future posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
United_Strafes Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Yes you may roll need for any reason, need 1 credit? Roll need to obtain thaty artifact and sell it for 1 credit, rolls are there for a reason, so it gives everyone a chance, stop complaining about it, this thread pops up every couple weeks. If you're worried about it, make friends, join a guild and come up with an agreement for loot, or play with strangers and roll like evryone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scullzomben Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Just a hypothetical thing here, looking for some answers. Would it be wrong of me to roll need on an item that belongs to another class in our group that has caused multiple wipes? Things like breaking CC's, repeatedly attacking bosses with damage reflect shields, being a dps and chain pulling? I kind of need that gear to sell to cover my repair bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCesca Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Just a hypothetical thing here, looking for some answers. Would it be wrong of me to roll need on an item that belongs to another class in our group that has caused multiple wipes? Things like breaking CC's, repeatedly attacking bosses with damage reflect shields, being a dps and chain pulling? I kind of need that gear to sell to cover my repair bill. just kick them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimsPicken Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 The end result would be exactly the same, though, if everyone rolled "need" on BCA from the start, and it would have the added benefit of completely avoiding all the loot ninja drama. This is one of those edge cases where "common sense" isn't really all that sensical. In this particular case, the drop could conceivably be used by just about everyone in the group (assuming they all have a high enough crafting skill). If "common courtesy" says that you should only "need" items your character can use, then "common sense" suggests that BCA is one of the rare occasions where everyone should feel free to roll "need." In fact, the only fair way to deal with BCA is for everyone to roll "need" on it, since everyone can use it (and odds are pretty good that someone will roll "need" on it anyway). But, hey, I know people like their little rules of etiquette, even in cases like this where they make no sense. (cue all the people who are ready to jump on anyone for ninjaing loot) Its not gear. You dont NEED it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qarran Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 The weird thing for me, I guess, is that I don't pay that much attention to it. My own personal rule of thumb is, I "need" if I can equip it and if it is an improvement. Otherwise, everything is greed or a pass. I do pass on occasion, when I don't even want to bother on a decision. That's it. I have no issues. And if others need for something they can't use or something I want? Fine. They have their reasons. I don't really look at them specifically and try to figure out what they need and why. Let the chips drop where they may. The main thing for me, is getting through the HMs and Ops and having a good time. I will get my gear drops. That's why I previously proposed to get rid of the need greed system altogether. Let everyone roll for everything equally. No one will get their feelings hurt and the QQ against BW will be... well, the same as always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobaTed Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Its not gear. You dont NEED it. NEED in the sense of "rolling need," or NEED in the sense of "can use item to perform better right now?" Or some other sense of NEED? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimsPicken Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 NEED in the sense of "rolling need," or NEED in the sense of "can use item to perform better right now?" Or some other sense of NEED? In the sense that everyone can use it, so its greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobaTed Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 In the sense that everyone can use it, so its greed. Connect the dots for me. Why wouldn't it be more fair for everyone to roll NEED on BCA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimsPicken Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Connect the dots for me. Why wouldn't it be more fair for everyone to roll NEED on BCA? You are being dense. The bottom line is if we do it your way, everybody NEEDS on everything because we can all come up with some dumb reason why we can use every drop. If everyone needs something equally, something that is not gear that goes on their own characters body, that item should be greed rolled. People who have been playing MMOs forever have been doing it this way forever, and dont roll need unless its actual gear for their actual character, therefore by rolling need all you are doing is jumping the line on people who are trying to be considerate. Anyways, roll however you want. Like I said before common sense and courtesy just isnt common, and people like to make up reasons (excuses) why they shouldnt follow procedure. I dont PUG nowdays, due to too many knobs in the PUG pool who dont know how to play nice with others, so its no matter to me. Just trying to educate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpienne Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Would it be wrong of me to roll need on an item that belongs to another class in our group that has caused multiple wipes? Things like breaking CC's, repeatedly attacking bosses with damage reflect shields, being a dps and chain pulling? You'd definitely get Paige-aggro for needing anything that wasn't an whole-item upgrade on gear for that character- particularly if you did it without explaining why. That's just me, though. Other people may react very differently. /shrug Paige Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elyssandra Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 To me: Need roll on BCA is when you haven't had enough BCAs to craft the BoP Rakata items for the character you are playing i.e. You are a synthweaver and you haven't yet received enough BCA to craft your bracers and belt for your character (not your companions). In this case - to me - this is a need roll. Greed is I am going to craft stuff to sell, craft stuff for my alts or companions or simply put it on the GTN. After I noticed some ppl doing BCA ninja activities - I now just wait to see what people roll and roll the same. Last time we had a rather annoying player with us who refused to follow instructions, had to physically be rescued quite often by the sage healer, etc and was generally did not communicate. He ofc needed the BCA so I needed it too and once I won it I asked if anyone really needed it as in to craft stuff for their main character. Nope... noone did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elyssandra Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Just a hypothetical thing here, looking for some answers. Would it be wrong of me to roll need on an item that belongs to another class in our group that has caused multiple wipes? Things like breaking CC's, repeatedly attacking bosses with damage reflect shields, being a dps and chain pulling? I kind of need that gear to sell to cover my repair bill. Why? You're trying to teach this person a lesson? If so why not a) advise him what he is doing wrong and b) if he refuses to listen or is arrogant kick him? Needing on stuff you're going to vendor when someone in the group actually needs it is just... wrong. And two wrongs don't... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobaTed Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 You are being dense. The bottom line is if we do it your way, everybody NEEDS on everything because we can all come up with some dumb reason why we can use every drop. If everyone needs something equally, something that is not gear that goes on their own characters body, that item should be greed rolled. So basically it's just another rule people made up and that other people are supposed to "get" because it's "common sense" or "common courtesy." But why is it fair? I'm saying it isn't - precisely because anyone who plays nice and "greeds" probably will lose out to anyone who plays mean and "needs." And, yes, this is a general property of the need/greed system. The BCA thing just brings it to the fore because of its near-universal utility. The system is inherently unfair. People may make all kinds of "play nice" rules for it, but those rules are unenforceable - except in a social context, which more often than not simply doesn't matter to the offender. The only people who get shafted in any way that means anything to them, are those who play nice. Me, I'd just as soon scrap the need/greed system altogether. Make it a want/pass system, or independent loot rolls with no BoA items (at lower drop probabilities to control supply), or give everyone some sort of vendor chips with which to buy their own stuff. Any of those options would be inherently more fair than what we've got and avoid all the "loot ninja" drama that haunts every game that has need/greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterKayote Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) The fact of the matter is that everyone present contributed to the kill and therefore have as much "right" to any gear that drops as the next person. The attitude that anyone has more right to a given piece of gear due to their class is just as "wrong" as is rolling on any piece of gear that drops. While I greed on gear that is not a direct upgrade for my character, I do not attempt to force my views on others, nor attempt to punish them for having views different from mine. I know, as I already mentioned its perfectly legal to be "scum" ... they have every "right" to be that way. No one is forced by law or in game to display common courtesy. No one is forced by law or in game to posses common decency. No one is forced by law or in game to have compassion for others. Everyone has the "right" to be as jerk-ish as they want to be to some one else. Just like I have every right to kick, ignore, and/or return the favor to anyone who does. That better? I find it odd that you defend such behavior yet dont practice it yourself. So basically you believe its wrong, yet dont mind when you yourself arent shown the same courtesy you show others? I see, way to stand up for yourself and your principles. I guess in that way, we're very different. I wonder, just how far does this passiveness of yours stretch? Where is it that you draw the line? How far or how long would you tolerate someone taking advantage of the fact you dont care, or do nothing, if someone doesnt show the same courtesy and respect towards you, that you show them or that you feel is right. Or wait, you dont believe its "wrong"? Then um, why dont you do it? Do you like, flip a coin to decide things most of us weigh againts our conscience. PS I love how you, and others who defend this non-sense like to dismiss the point brought up on how this "I have a right to need for whatever reason" opens the doors for everyone just needing on everything, and would completely negate the point of a need/greed system. Edited July 17, 2012 by MasterKayote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlbo_Nabbins Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) Scrap 3 as you can't give it to alts as it becomes Bind On Pickup. Except that if its orange you can strip the mods out, put them in a legacy orange and then mail that to an alt. In addition some gear that drops is Bind On Equip. Edited July 17, 2012 by Arlbo_Nabbins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DorkTrooper Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Just another reason not to PUG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobaTed Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I see, way to stand up for yourself and your principles. Under the current system, how would you or anyone else stand up for themselves, exactly? That's actually kind of one of the questions implicit in the OP, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterKayote Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Under the current system, how would you or anyone else stand up for themselves, exactly? That's actually kind of one of the questions implicit in the OP, isn't it? As I said before: Much like other diseases, all we can do is identify them, avoid them at all costs, and hope there is a cure soon. Unfortunately thats all that can be done. Not much but its still better than bending over and taking it every time or worse, joining them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobmcbo Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 saying they didn't realize they can't use it doesn't justify it. when I helped kill a world boss on my merc, for some stupid reason I rolled need on a shield generator. I got it, then after I realized what I just got, I gave it to someone who actually needs it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratajack Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Connect the dots for me. Why wouldn't it be more fair for everyone to roll NEED on BCA? Because that's not the way he handles it, and if you do something different than what he does, it's a Richard move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratajack Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I know, as I already mentioned its perfectly legal to be "scum" ... they have every "right" to be that way. No one is forced by law or in game to display common courtesy. No one is forced by law or in game to posses common decency. No one is forced by law or in game to have compassion for others. Everyone has the "right" to be as jerk-ish as they want to be to some one else. Just like I have every right to kick, ignore, and/or return the favor to anyone who does. That better? I find it odd that you defend such behavior yet dont practice it yourself. So basically you believe its wrong, yet dont mind when you yourself arent shown the same courtesy you show others? I see, way to stand up for yourself and your principles. I guess in that way, we're very different. I wonder, just how far does this passiveness of yours stretch? Where is it that you draw the line? How far or how long would you tolerate someone taking advantage of the fact you dont care, or do nothing, if someone doesnt show the same courtesy and respect towards you, that you show them or that you feel is right. Or wait, you dont believe its "wrong"? Then um, why dont you do it? Do you like, flip a coin to decide things most of us weigh againts our conscience. PS I love how you, and others who defend this non-sense like to dismiss the point brought up on how this "I have a right to need for whatever reason" opens the doors for everyone just needing on everything, and would completely negate the point of a need/greed system. One of my "principles" is that I do not attempt to force others to behave the way I choose to, whether that be in game or in real life. So long as they are not doing anything against the TOS in game, or doing anything illegal or that puts me or others at risk, a person has the freedom to act any way they wish. This tolerance does not always mean that I approve of the way they act, simply that I recognize their right to do so. It is not my place to tell anyone how to act. If I do not approve of the way people act, I have the choice not to interact with them. In game, this "principle", and my conscience, means that I recognize a players right to roll need on anything that drops. The player did, after all, contribute to the kill. That does not mean that I approve of rolling need on everything, simply that I believe that to attempt to limit a players right to roll on any piece of gear is, in my opinion, as wrong as rolling need on everything. I do not attempt to force others to behave the same way I do, nor do I attempt to punish them with a vote kick for not doing so. I finish the run, place them on ignore and exercise my right to choose not to interact with them in the future. I do this for both those that roll need on everything, and those that try to force others to behave the way they want them to behave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimsPicken Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Because that's not the way he handles it, and if you do something different than what he does, it's a Richard move. Now you are getting it. You wouldnt believe how many richards there are in the world. Actually, you probably would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterKayote Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) I finish the run, place them on ignore and exercise my right to choose not to interact with them in the future. I do this for both those that roll need on everything, and those that try to force others to behave the way they want them to behave. "All thats necessary for the forces of evil to win is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke It may be a bit over the top for a game but the point remains. I suppose anyone can justify themselves to you and youll just check thier self justifications against the current rulebook. Rulebooks, BTW, dont always specify everything. Thats where societies own morals of right and wrong come to play. Thats how a vast majority of players just happen to not roll on items they wont use without having to establish a long list of rules before every run. Thats where the word "Common" in Common Courtesy comes from. Compassion, generosity, altruism ... Its sad that you defend those without it but I guess there is nothing in the rulebook about that. I suppose its good enough that you ignore them. May not be much, but in the end its all we can do in the long run. Youre just passive and nonconfrontational about it but its a punishment ... a tiny, insignificant one, but a punishment none the less. Edited July 17, 2012 by MasterKayote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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