SWTOR Senior Designer on Deception Assassins

[Talsyrius]

Personally, I like playing as a deception assassin in pvp.

 

Well, most of us don't like to play a sub-par spec, even though it might be challenging and fun, because it hurts your team...

[Trauglodyte]

I knew there was going to be some outrage to his post. On behalf of the Concealment Operative community, we support your anger and hope that, united, our 4 AC specs can be brought to the forefront.

 

Lone wolf/horrible partner - sigh!

[DemonJin]

For those who feel like I do that this spec needs some help, the time is now. Join me on the thread for next weeks Q&A and post there and make our suffering heard. Don't sit in silence and suffer.

 

Keep flooding the Q&A make them hear us!!

[Darth_Hatine]

Well, most of us don't like to play a sub-par spec, even though it might be challenging and fun, because it hurts your team...

 

I don't know. But when I played my Assassin(haven't recently leveling up my sage healer and gearing it up) I usually play harrassment and went after the healers and damage dealers so they stopped going after my team and instead would try to focus on healing themselves or trying to damage me. So I was able to take some heat off my team and hurt the chances of the other team getting much needed healing. That's how I played and it worked for me.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Darth_Hatine

[Talsyrius]

I don't know. But when I played my Assassin(haven't recently leveling up my sage healer and gearing it up) I usually play harrassment and went after the healers and damage dealers so they stopped going after my team and instead would try to focus on healing themselves or trying to damage me. So I was able to take some heat off my team and hurt the chances of the other team getting much needed healing. That's how I played and it worked for me.

Let me rephrase that, I don't like playing deception because regardless of my skill and knowledge of that spec, I know I would do the same job, but better, on other classes/spcs, which in turn is not good for my team.

[IronmanSS]

I don't know. But when I played my Assassin(haven't recently leveling up my sage healer and gearing it up) I usually play harrassment and went after the healers and damage dealers so they stopped going after my team and instead would try to focus on healing themselves or trying to damage me. So I was able to take some heat off my team and hurt the chances of the other team getting much needed healing. That's how I played and it worked for me.

 

Yes, I too did the best I could to contribute to "the team" with the tools Deception Sins were given for the past 6 months, I even managed to kill a few players along the way. Then I respecced Darkness/Madness and realized I could do the same thing in terms of pressure and harassment, complete with an ENTIRE BAG of new tools like Force Pull, instant cast ranged AOE and CC, all while managing to live about twice as long while I was at it. It's kind of a no brainer once you try it out, it's clear you can help your WZ team more in "anything but Deception spec". Although I do prefer the playstyle of deception, the utility of having guard available with a slew of defensive tools, makes you a much better defender/harasser while still allowing you very respectable damage output if you're still wearing your deception gear.

[Exiled-Phoenix]

Well said OP.

That Q&A response was a smack to the face!

 

We are designed to be ****** in pvp, great..

The whole 'set up, burst and hit&run' is only good for open pvp with alot of space and few people, useless in a pvp game where you try to intercept a ball carrier..

 

Also what about PvE?

Yea i understand we have madness but i dont like DoT's and procs...

I also picked an assassin for the MELEE dps and swinging a saber, not to cast curses on people/bosses.

 

Such a disgracefull answer by the dev...

[pqgarvis]

I have played the Assassin since release in December 2011, and I have to say while nothing ever is perfect, 80% of the people tend to whine about this and that in forum postings. I see nothing wrong (or negative) about the Senior Designer's thoughts on Assassins. Every spec has it's strengths and weaknesses, and he in a round about way called the "Deception" spec a glass cannon, which is right on the nose.

 

I think sometimes that people want easy or things handed to them, the good players make builds shine that even maybe shouldn't, and after Pvping for over 6 months I have come to the same conclusion that I have with every MMO, most of the population plays at an average level and those that play at a higher level may seem OP to those with less skill, and to compensate for this the average and below players expect changes.

 

Yet again I don't think Assassins are perfect, but player's perceptions is a hard sell or arguement, and pleasing the masses isn't possible.

[Phenyr]

Dear Mr. Peckenpaugh,

 

I wanted to apologize on behalf of all the Deception Assassins who "dashed your expectations" by somehow managing to contribute to their team's success despite your design direction for this spec. You state that you intentionally designed Deception spec to be "not a great partner", or translated from PR speak: a BAD team player. Unfortunately, all our current PvP content is "Team-Based" Warzones. So, you're essentially saying that you intend for Deception spec to be "bad" at end-game PvP (rated Warzones), and that if we don't like it then there are other more viable Team/Utility specs (darkness/madness) for us to choose from. Don't worry, most of us already figured that out. Check your "logs and metrics" for % of active player assassins who are specced primarily Deception compared to Darkness or Madness (or Both). I’m sure you’ll find that most players have migrated to specs that give them greater opportunity to contribute to their team’s success in Team Objective based Warzones.

 

 

Ive read what that dev said about it. He's working at the wrong project doing the wrong job.

[Fallenseven]

This was my starting class and i still go back to it from time to time. Its not even close to being viable in rated warzones, and even in normal warzones its still gimped. i'm more often finding straglers on the outside of combat with low hp that i have to pop recklessness(force potency) just to kill. This "burst" hes refering to caps out at about 7k hp, then i'm left with not enough force to do anything else. Overcharge saber(battle rediness) needs to get a remake because upping the damage on the charge (stance) is garbage. The only thing its good for is bonus healing for the tank spec again favoring the tank in light armor lol. Operatives still do more burst and can toss themselves a few heals. And if i'm going to be a lone wolf stealthing around and taking opportunity kills then i better have a 1 minute cd on a combat stealth because 230 when i'm speced for the reduction bonus isnt enough to get in and get out consistantly.

[MasterFeign]

I think they don't expect the person you're fighting against to heal themselves after you use combat stealth... that seems to be the only explanation. Kind of negates the term "assassinate"...

[Talsyrius]

I have played the Assassin since release in December 2011, and I have to say while nothing ever is perfect, 80% of the people tend to whine about this and that in forum postings. I see nothing wrong (or negative) about the Senior Designer's thoughts on Assassins. Every spec has it's strengths and weaknesses, and he in a round about way called the "Deception" spec a glass cannon, which is right on the nose.

 

I think sometimes that people want easy or things handed to them, the good players make builds shine that even maybe shouldn't, and after Pvping for over 6 months I have come to the same conclusion that I have with every MMO, most of the population plays at an average level and those that play at a higher level may seem OP to those with less skill, and to compensate for this the average and below players expect changes.

 

Yet again I don't think Assassins are perfect, but player's perceptions is a hard sell or arguement, and pleasing the masses isn't possible.

Again, class balance isn't about how good the player is, but how well the class perform in the hands of an equally skilled player. If said player can do well with deception sin, well good for him, but fact remains, he would do a better job with another class.

[Sanen]

after thinking about it and rereading and watching some pvp videos of some deception assassin i think they do have some very strong burst when u are geared and skilled enough to pull it off and thats just in pvp. In pve deception needs a change cuz lone wolves in ops dont cut it and i havent seen a pve video of a deception assassin doing good dps. Really the spec needs some changes and just to the deception spec the others are kind of fine.

[FodderofCannon]

I have played the Assassin since release in December 2011, and I have to say while nothing ever is perfect, 80% of the people tend to whine about this and that in forum postings. I see nothing wrong (or negative) about the Senior Designer's thoughts on Assassins. Every spec has it's strengths and weaknesses, and he in a round about way called the "Deception" spec a glass cannon, which is right on the nose.

 

I think sometimes that people want easy or things handed to them, the good players make builds shine that even maybe shouldn't, and after Pvping for over 6 months I have come to the same conclusion that I have with every MMO, most of the population plays at an average level and those that play at a higher level may seem OP to those with less skill, and to compensate for this the average and below players expect changes.

 

Yet again I don't think Assassins are perfect, but player's perceptions is a hard sell or arguement, and pleasing the masses isn't possible.

 

The thing is other classes can 'glass cannon" and have the benefit of being at range. The "glass cannon" of the Sent/Mara has like god like defensive cooldowns. Although it may be true that some classes can be made to work, this does not make the ac balanced.

 

Other than stealth, (oh wait sents have that too!) I don't see how the Inf spec has more "canon" than the other dps classes given it's very bad survivabilty.

[Exiled-Phoenix]

Burst damage...

 

A nice little story before bed time.

 

Ran EC HM today with guild, spent 2h trying to get kephess down.

On the phase where the trandoshians come under the shield, we usually have a marauder target the warrior and he kills it alone, away from the group.

He always has enough time to kill and get in position for the next group to come.

The marauder wasnt there today so i took the position because i have taunt.

 

If i didnt get any good amount of crits in my shock/discharge i was actually to slow and would have to rush over to the other side to make sure the warrior didnt walk into the AoEing sorcs....

 

So much for having nice burst damage VS other classes.

The marauder is annihilation specced.

[KiranK]

It becomes more and more apparent that devs like Austin Peckenpaugh have no idea what they're talking about or doing.

 

If shadows are supposed to have high burst DPS, where the hell is it? We don't even compare in burst to Focus Knights/Warriors or Pyro PTs/VGs, who are all very survivable classes with many tools to keep them alive. Why is the double project talent in the balance tree? Why does shadow technique proc half as often as every other technique, which makes us benifit less from combat readiness than all other specs. Notice how you also conveniently gave us a talent linked to combat readiness, even though it sucks for us. If we're supposed to "hit and run", why is our escape mechanic on a CD that is more than twice as long as that as a Mara/Sent? Why is the force speed talent located in the tank tree? The only thing the Deception spec deceived was you, Mr. Peckenpaugh. Sorry if we "dashed your expectations", but your expectations are garbage. Please tell me how I can dash them more so that a better developer might come along and save us from your abandonment.

[Metajedi]

In solo and PvP environments, Deception is meant to be a high burst, high mobility, shutdown spec. When played properly, they provide some of the highest burst and highest pressure in the game. However, Deception is not a great partner. He can't take hits, his shutdown requires that he set the pace of the fight, and his escapes leave allies open and vulnerable to counterattacks. I say that, but I've seen players dash my expectations and turn Deception into a spectacular teammate. Unfortunately, I've seen many more players try to facetank and fail. Assassins have a great team support role - Darkness; they also have a great well-rounded, high utility role - Madness. We left Deception to take the opportunity to do something fun and very different, but that comes with the risk of missing player expectation. If you like Deception and you want to pull it off, my suggestion is that you pick your fights and plan ahead, but I'd also warn that Deception is a spec of extremes - I would not describe it as "well-rounded."

 

Dear Mr. Peckenpaugh

 

The issue with Assassins is not that they cant work, your absolutely right. I am living proof of what you say is true, I have indeed picked my fights, remained in stealth picked my fights, and helped to cut down Dps and healers when they were distracted by my team mates.

 

the issue is that any other class can do this with out the dreaded survivability that deception assassins have.

I challenge you Mr. Peckenpaugh to name one dps class that cannot fill the role that deception assassins are supposed to fill.

 

The issue is that we don't do our jobs well enough to justify bringing a deception assassin along when you could just bring a marauder, or a power tech.

 

Similar issues arise with madness spec assassins. The truth of the matter is, Madness sorcerors fill the exact same roll as madness Sins, however sorcerors do it better ( being able to do roughly the same Dps but at 30 yard range ) , and even madness sorcerors are not allowed in rated warzones because while they do great damage they do not do it fast enough, nor do they have the survivability required.

 

Either way you cut it Mr. Peckpaugh the Assassin AC needs to be reworked.

 

If you want Deception Assassins to be hit and run, then give them the tools they need for it. Right Now a Marauder can fill that role much better because a Marauder can literally Vanish out of every single combat with force camo on a 45 second cooldown.

 

Why does a Non stealth class have a better stealth cooldown then an Assassin.

 

All I am saying is, if the Majority of Players as you say, face tank it, then doesnt that indicate a problem with the spec? If many people are having difficulty making it work, and no one is taking them for rated teams doesnt that indicate something about there viability ? Your Metrics HAVE to be showing this! So why do you deny it ? You know it and we know you know it.

 

Do the majority of power techs face tank and fail ? how about the majority of marauders? in IMO marauder is a much harder class to play optimally then a deception assassin and even the bad ones do ok in pvp.

You can't just blanket statement the assassin community and say L2P which is essentially what you have told us to do Mr. Peckenpaugh, quite frankly its rather insulting.

 

Its not an L2P issue, even at our best, even when we are doing exactly what we are supposed to do, other dps classes fill our role and have better utility and survivability.

 

Deception assassins need better burst, or better escape/utility/defense to justify their place in rated teams ( or even regular warzones) .

Madness Assassins ( and Sorcerors ) Need more burst so they can also be included in rated teams.

 

You openly admit that this spec ( deception) but I would also claim madness falls into this same category is not a team player. ( madness is more of a team player, but their survivability is almost identical, and even with the kiting and dots your essentially doing what a Deception should be doing, waiting for an oppertunity to finish off weakened classes because your Burst isnt enough to burn down most targets from full to zero before back up comes ) Yet the only pvp that is offered to us is team pvp, that requires teamwork to be successful....so you must make this Lone wolf class, Either less of a lone wolf... or make it ACTUALLY a lone wolf... a Lone wolf who CAN make kills in just a few globals and then vanish again before he gets noticed. ( you dont have to increase damage for this I would say a reduction in force usage would do the trick)

 

Listen to the people who are playing your game and paying your salary, the assassin class needs work. It is Blatantly obvious Mr. Peckenpaugh

[BobaStyx]

The only thing I'll say about force camo is that it's the marauder version of an aggro dump, which is why its on a 45 sec CD and gives them 50% damage debuff to get out of range of bosses in PvE. HOWEVER, even as a very geared Marauder that's been playing the class since release, I will say that the complete invisibility portion of it is pretty much garbage for PvP. I do agree that the invisibility portion should go b/c very few AC's get any benefit of their aggro dump in PvP, but marauders/sents use it as another "oh *****" button.

 

And for deception... It's garbage, always has, always will be until it gets some much needed QoL changes. As said marauder, I laugh a little bit when I see the surging charge stance and your spinning saber, I understand it's a free kill the second I blind you because 6 secs is usually all the time I need to burst you guys down, which shows the sad state of affairs of the class. And on my assassin, I used it for about 2 WZ's and respec'd out of it as fast as I could.

[timidobserver]

I think that QA response really shocked everyone. Everyone thought that the deception assassin might've just been ignored or that they screwed it up on mistake or just basic incompetance. This guy seeems to be saying that they designed it horribly on purpose.

[SWFTW]

I think that QA response really shocked everyone. Everyone thought that the deception assassin might've just been ignored or that they screwed it up on mistake or just basic incompetance. This guy seeems to be saying that they designed it horribly on purpose.

 

Pretty much this. The fact that Deception sins haven't been touched since launch with the exception of the Hybrid nerf was puzzling to me to say the least. When they finally gave us some attention...It was to say this? Really? My confidence in BioWare devs was severely decreased when I read that.

[iphobia]

I just read the Q&A.

Even as a Sorc, i was shocked.

I'm 100% sure this Dev plays a Pyro PT.

Edited July 15, 2012 by iphobia

[phga]

What's interesting is that it's stated that the spec is underperforming in team play because it's meant to be that way, and that Deceptisins (and mirror) have great burst... Well, yeah they do, at lower levels. I purposedly started a Shadow to further test this theory, and at level 12 I managed to land a 2.6k crit with mostly crap gear.

 

I think this is one of the most iconic and fun-to-play classes out there and leveling is a truly enjoyable experience, especially in Deception spec. But then everything changes. I'm not much of an endgamer myself, but I really find it anti-climatic and unfair that the most fun spec and the one that clearly most of us want to play (it's the most fun, and its practically unanimous), is not as viable for team play as it should be. I mean what're we supposed to do? Play Deception/Infiltration solo only? Then either respec or log on another char? :confused:

 

I hope the Devs will open their eyes and see that they should at least take a deeper look at the spec, that while awesome, needs some tweaks to make it more viable.

[dronepilot]

OP: A very well thought out post, plus several other comments by fellow shadows in the Infiltration tree. I am really surprised at what this developer said, and clearly doesn't care about what the Shadow/Assassin community think. I am really feeling empty on this, I was hoping some one could come and rescue this skill tree from the bin, but clearly, they have no intentions of ever fixing it.

 

So sad.. No I don't want to tank, your only leaving me with the option now of a Infiltration/Balance spec hybrid. ok, it plays very nice, but its not full Infiltration which I love to play.. Sadly, our DPS just isn't up to spec compared to other melee classes, but sure, you just want us to hit and run, I am fine with that, and yes I do that in PVP all the time, thanks, so why the long CD's on our escape mechanisms then ??

[Xinika]

OP: A very well thought out post, plus several other comments by fellow shadows in the Infiltration tree. I am really surprised at what this developer said, and clearly doesn't care about what the Shadow/Assassin community think. I am really feeling empty on this, I was hoping some one could come and rescue this skill tree from the bin, but clearly, they have no intentions of ever fixing it.

 

So sad.. No I don't want to tank, your only leaving me with the option now of a Infiltration/Balance spec hybrid. ok, it plays very nice, but its not full Infiltration which I love to play.. Sadly, our DPS just isn't up to spec compared to other melee classes, but sure, you just want us to hit and run, I am fine with that, and yes I do that in PVP all the time, thanks, so why the long CD's on our escape mechanisms then ??

 

Hate to say "I told you so"

[Somesite]

@SWTOR Dev team

 

I find it harder and harder to believe you take any of our complaints seriously. How do you not expect us to elevate our anger and frustration by calling your intelligence into question?

 

We aren't playing the class wrong, you designed it incorrectly. Listen to your customers for once.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Somesite