Astarica Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 It definitely is not the same as everybody having them. The use of those grenades by a good player and a bad player can make a big difference in the game. Basically everyone has a trinket to remove impairing effects. However, less than half the people use it properly and get CCed again right after. Same applies to grenades. It is something that differentiate experienced and inexperienced players. Without things like that, there is no point in gaining specialization in PVP. Why PVP if not to get better or to win? Obtaining the Cyro grenades themselves requires no skill or effort since you can just make the lowest grade type which is clearly affordable to anyone at level 50. There might be skilled involved in knowing when to throw one but that's a different issue. So far as availabilty is concerned, cyro grenades simply do not belong in this game. They're not rare enough to be elitist (like WZ consumables), but they're not so powerful to be absolutely mandatory (though people are starting to realize every edge counts). It'd be like if the Rakghoul Vaccine offered some kind of advantage in PvP and cost 20 credits then you'd always use Rakghoul Vaccine and it's not unfair, but it's just dumb because everyone would have a Rakghoul Vaccine when they eventually figured it out so you might as well not have this item at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 It'd be like if the Rakghoul Vaccine offered some kind of advantage in PvP and cost 20 credits then you'd always use Rakghoul Vaccine and it's not unfair, but it's just dumb because everyone would have a Rakghoul Vaccine when they eventually figured it out so you might as well not have this item at all. Bolded the part that I just don't agree w/. Just because everyone has one doesn't mean we should just get rid of it. Everyone has a "free" spammable attack too, but that doesn't mean I feel the need to get rid of them. The fact that everyone has access to it doesn't diminish its strategic value to the individual classes whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trauglodyte Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Yes, they are. The tremor grenade most definitely is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Bolded the part that I just don't agree w/. Just because everyone has one doesn't mean we should just get rid of it. Everyone has a "free" spammable attack too, but that doesn't mean I feel the need to get rid of them. The fact that everyone has access to it doesn't diminish its strategic value to the individual classes whatsoever. The 'free' attack builds resources for 1/4 of the class in the game so it's definitely needed there. There might be strategic value in knowing when to throw a grenade even if everyone has one. I don't deny that. I think their availabilty is wrong. Similar to how I feel about WZ consumables, if you must have something to be competitive you might as well make a legacy WZ ability that's usable once every WZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikrazy Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 The tremor grenade most definitely is not. It does fill up resolve, but not as much as the neural shock one. Only the cryo grenade roots. A multi-target 4s stun with a 30m range is useless? No, it is awesome and close to essential for competitive PVP. Obviously you don't throw them around like candy but throwing one of them at a group approaching to stop a cap? Yes please. It's not 30m. More like 10m. Also, can only be used once every 3 minutes. Essentially the same as biochem. I can make grenades for others to use, just like biochemists make stims for me to use. So, CT is only an advantage if biochem stims are removed from PvP. Until then, buy/make some grenades for yourself. No one's stopping you from using them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 The 'free' attack builds resources for 1/4 of the class in the game so it's definitely needed there. There might be strategic value in knowing when to throw a grenade even if everyone has one. I don't deny that. I think their availabilty is wrong. Similar to how I feel about WZ consumables, if you must have something to be competitive you might as well make a legacy WZ ability that's usable once every WZ. I guess we'll agree to disagree again then, as you know my viewpoint on the consumables as well. : P As for the "free attack", I could have gone w/ almost anything shared between classes, such as class buffs, the jump mechanic, 4 second stun, etc. I think that removing any of them removes a layer of much-needed strategy from the meta-game. I don't feel quite as strongly about the grenades (I actually very rarely use them, and haven't on my Mara at all, which arguably has the least amount of CC options of all of my classes), but I don't really see any reason to remove them since everyone does have access to them. Just like everyone still has access to Biochem stims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I guess we'll agree to disagree again then, as you know my viewpoint on the consumables as well. : P As for the "free attack", I could have gone w/ almost anything shared between classes, such as class buffs, the jump mechanic, 4 second stun, etc. I think that removing any of them removes a layer of much-needed strategy from the meta-game. I don't feel quite as strongly about the grenades (I actually very rarely use them, and haven't on my Mara at all, which arguably has the least amount of CC options of all of my classes), but I don't really see any reason to remove them since everyone does have access to them. Just like everyone still has access to Biochem stims. Class buffs might as well be removed since I'm sure any serious PvP has leveled up 3 alts to ensure he can do all 4 buffs solo. Mechanics like jump isn't available to all classes. Not even the 4s stun is available to classes (SW need to channel it and it's only 3s). They also have varying range (i.e. Operative requires melee). While variety makes things interesting they also make things harder to balance. My view is that any variety that is ultimately unnecessary should be removed from the game so that there is less chance of the designer screwing up. Of course you can balance grenades/biochem/whatever, but look at how many times Biochem got nerfed until it's settled on some kind of quasi-balanced state. It'd be easier if Biochem simply never worked in PvP to begin with so we don't have to deal with the ensuing nerfs. Looking at the history of the design it's probably just a matter of time before all consumables get removed from WZ because they just introduce an unnecessary layer of complexity on a PvP system that is already pretty imbalanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Jump, not Force Leap. : P We can all jump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Jump, not Force Leap. : P We can all jump. Well FF14 tried to make a game without jumping and we all know how that went, so there must be some necessary value to jump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinnedWill Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Sure, get rid of the Rakata Medpack, too. It's on a quicker cooldown than warzone medpack, and the maximum health boost effect gives significant advantages to any class that has %-based healing effects (and/or juggs/guardians stacking endure pain with it for some insane health values then using enraged defense - CRAZY MAN). Oh... wait... you biochems neglected to mention you still have that. Yes, I understand biochems no longer get their crazy advantages they used to have, but you still make fare more money as biochem compared ot every other crafting profession AND still get exclusive items to use for pvp. Sure, the reusable stims are slightly weaker than the consumed exotechs, and rakata medpack is weaker in value than a warzone medpack (yet superior for other reasons) and still you guys are crying?! How about you guys stop hoarding exotechs for yourselves/guildmates and drop the prices for us poor synthweavers/armstechs/armormechs/artificers that actually have to purchase stims AND grenades... and how about if they made it so that you could sell us (and let us use) the reusable rakata medpacks? Once they do that, THEN you'll finally lose a slight edge over non biochems - reusable stims aren't the best, but they're certainly good enough - and then there's the fact that there is ALWAYS large demand for your consumable stims, so you'll still be the most profitable profession. Cybertechs - yes, you all have the pvp usage advantage similar to biochem (though not as significantly, IMO). As CC-heavy as this game already is and the fact that seismics hasten resolve filling, I actually prefer it when bad teams have loads of grenades, particularly in hutt-ball. At least most of the cybertechs who sell grenades don't charge ~ 1000% markup for their good like biochems do for their consumable stims! That said... gee, it sure would be nice if synth/armstech/armormech/artifice could craft weapons that have on-use applications (i.e. armor that gives us extra DR, weapons that can procc bonus damage like the relics,etc. on the shells yet still happen to be customizable) and actually require that you have 400 synth/arms/armor/arti to equip. Until then, biochem and cybertech will always have unique advantages over the other professions for pvp. -Sorry, with over 180 purples on my synthweaver and 100+ purples on my armstech, I just can't bring myself to drop them for biochem/cybertech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinnedWill Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Well FF14 tried to make a game without jumping and we all know how that went, so there must be some necessary value to jump. Yes, it's called being able to be out of range of body-type 1 melee classes much more easily =p. God I wish I could change my assassin from type 1 to type 2... dam you jumpies!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olemanbourbon Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Ooh I need to make another batch of cryo grenades for my assault trooper. Thx for the reminder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Well FF14 tried to make a game without jumping and we all know how that went, so there must be some necessary value to jump. I don't think that the lack of a Jump function was high on the list of FF14's failings as a "modern-day MMO", lol. But touche'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldserpent Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Ooh I need to make another batch of cryo grenades for my assault trooper. Thx for the reminder. I'll second that statement. I have a guild and buddies that I regularly team with for pvp to supply. Half tempted to start making a bunch of pyro grenades so that the ground burns everywhere, or sludge grenades for everyone so that the opposing team walks around looking like they crapped their pants at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Troopers have cryo grenade ability that has a cool down that is 1/3 that of the cyber tech grenades. Maybe that is why you're seeing them used more? Oh, and before you say "nerf that ability", I want you to nerf half of every other classes' CC abilities.....because that's what taking away cryo grenades from a trooper would be. Stun Wars The Old Republic has a lot of CCs, mezzes, stuns, roots, etc. deal with it, just like everyone else does..... Or, ya know, roll an alt to make the grenades like I rolled an alt to make biochem stims, adrenals, and medpacks. Highlighted wins thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sauerkraut Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Why doesn't EVERY class has a craft-able CC item? Why only troopers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siorac Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 It's not really a balance issue, it doesn't make Cybertech overpowered - but this game REALLY doesn't need another form of CC. There's more than enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kumodomodo Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 All CC should go , but they need to figure out what the heck the classes are first. DPS does Highest damage , with the least amount of hps ,1 stun or out of stealth stun. Tank = Highest Hps , defensive buffs ( the 5% trooper buff is a joke compared to the others LOL seriously) and medium lowish dps Healers= Duh..best heals , medium hps , medium armor and CC...damage is low This game everyone does everything but 3 classes are TOPS better at it , and some classes that don't need CC have it and the others that need CC don't have it. The CC should be in everyone's tech tree and if you want it you need to spend high points to get it...end thread. Damage is screwed up also , playing my commando what takes me 2 seconds to generate is someone elses insta light saber attack or a knife ...usually while im stun locked . meanwhile they are bobbing around me playing jumpy jump running behind a pole or someone brought in a cardboard box threw it in the battle field and i cant get LOS on them to save my life. Melee lightsaber attacks seem to hit you at more than 5 meters away..wait a sec a light saber might be 5 foot long and with a reach maybe 8 feet... Leaves me this..do the developers even play this game or if they do maybe they are hung up on being a Sith.. Each and every fight seems like its the Yoda *** kicking scene if your holding a gun or rifle...get the best of them stun lock..knock them back..force leap...run away..force pull.. running around you in a circle spamming insta light saber attacks. Im sure if you swung a light saber at someone it would be the same as getting a light saber shooting out of a gun...they are both lasers in case you didn't know...and i can squeeze a trigger faster than you can swing your arm.... But this high tech scenario game..says that my gun needs to charge and i have to stand still to shoot you for 1/2 the damage as someone swinging a light saber lol. Guess in real life the soldiers have to stand still to shoot their automatic weapon to do damage...make sense yet ? retarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Each and every fight seems like its the Yoda *** kicking scene if your holding a gun or rifle... Well, to be fair, Yoda and I do use the same fighting style. : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulzii Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 A multi-target 4s stun with a 30m range is useless? No, it is awesome and close to essential for competitive PVP. Obviously you don't throw them around like candy but throwing one of them at a group approaching to stop a cap? Yes please. well, i'd say they are borderline useless in anything by ranked or premade wz's. Too many folks throw cc's/dmg around willy-nilly, breaking the cc stun immediately and wasting the grenade... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anysao Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Im a cyber tech.. What does it matter? It's just a few seconds. But I'd gladly replace it for a knock-back grenade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashbrother Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 (edited) For the exact same reasons BW removed Biochem adrenals from PvP, cryo grenades need to be removed as well. I was actually surprised they weren't shown the door at the same time because they pose the same issue that Biochem did in that a specific crafting skill becomes more desirable for the advantage it offers in PvP. BW has maintained that they don't want any one crafting skill to become THE goto skill for PvE or PvP. To be consistent with their justification for removing adrenals, cryo grenades should be removed for the same reasons. I'm starting to see more and more PvPers pick up Cybertech and consequently cryo grenade use has increased significantly in WZs. It's getting old, and they should have removed them at the same time they removed adrenals. /thread BW made adrenals not usable because they wanted to reduce burst, not because they didn't want people all flocking to one profession. That is why those adrenals are not usable, but rakata stims and medpac still are while in a WZ. BW wanted to nerf burst damage. That is all. If you want to use grenades, have a CT craft the lowbie ones because they all do the same thing. Edited July 11, 2012 by Smashbrother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anwg Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 If you look at the grenades, they are made for PvP and have almost no function in raids. So why would they make them not useable in warzones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 You are aware that regardless of any changes any game goes through, players who can not play it properly will still whine about the game; and have a never ending list of excuses not only for their failure, but also for other players success. Even when the situation of the other players who are successful is identical to theirs. /thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkzehhh Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 /thread \thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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