One money sink too many.

[MaximusRex]

The problem with money sinks is nobody likes them, yet nobody likes the alternative either. In the real world, money is limited in quantity. It doesn't magically appear if you kill your pet bunny.

 

However, in MMO's money is randomly generated on the spot for killing, for certain activities and for quest rewards. Meaning, the economy rapidly inflates.

 

If you let that go on and on, it's just a matter of time before longer term players end up having so much money, that price wise things turn out borderline ridiculous. Crafting materials may end up going around for like 500k a piece, crafted items could be yielding in 250 million per item or whatever.

 

A prime example of an economy like that used to be for example ragnarok online back in the days. Where items were sometimes valued so high in the inflated economy that by default you started talking in millions.

 

The problem is it feels like the money sinks in TOR are targeted toward the high end player, which means they are effectively pricing the medium and casual players out of the market, and while on some things that might not be a bad thing, we are talking about the costs for cosmetic looks and basic gearing, like Augments, which could have helped more casual players close their gear gap a bit (take a look at the threads asking for ways to keep people out of group finder based on gear), these are things that could actually enhance play for the less hardcore player and keep the playing longer, but when costs seem incredibly out of reach that just discourages players.

 

Credit sinks are needed, and I don't think any of TOR credit sinks are bad, even the new Augment slot ones, the problem is TOR's credit sinks are way too deep, and they hurt the more casual player, and alt-aholics the most, and this should be the players base they want to grow.

[DarkSaberMaster]

People still defending the mod removal highway robbery huh?

[well]

But everyone has the same capability to make said credits. It's their choice whether or not to do so.

Not everyone has the time to put into getting those credits.They have families commitments or work.Dailies maybe take a 1 hour or 2 but if you are just doing them they cut into playing time.I make enough crafting I do them if I feel in the mood.Some people want to spend the time to actually play the game for the time they have.A game shouldn't be just about gathering resources.

[Jherad]

I agree.

 

It seems the devs have a model for how their players should play - ie. running dailies every day on their 50 main for credits. If you break the model (prefer to PvP all day?) you're doing it wrong.

 

Sigh.

 

Sure, everyone has the capability to make money. Everyone has the capability to sandpaper their eyeballs as well. The moneysinks are really killing a lot of the fun for me.

[Xerkrom]

You know what would make dailies more tolerable? If i didn't have to talk to the npc, sure i can space bar through the entire conversation...but why can't i just skip it completely and be on my way to the daily grind. I don't want to talk to you, npc. i don't care about your problems, Give me my quest and get out of my face. It wouldn't be so hard to implement an option to skip conversation for non-class quests in the options. I wouldn't mind doing dailies so much...Still the money sinks are a bit ridiculous.

Oh well Guild Wars 2 comes out in August...so perhaps there is hope for the MMO genre.

[chimunga]

yes i get the point.... there is something in the game that you feel you can't afford so it shouldnt be there.

 

No. That's not it. I'm not throwing a temper tantrum because I can't afford it. I'm am, however, complaining because it doesn't make sense.

 

the credits are peanuts.... 210 000 creds is nothing. one of my toons is lvl17. its cybertech crafter. it financed my whole legacy. by that i mean it financed 7 further toons.... all craft skills maxed, all gathering skills maxed at least once, all (bar my shadow but i'm workin on it) companion affection at 10k. and they all (companions also) have the best pve gear available... all purple mods/arm/enh/barrel/hilt. it isnt hard to do.... you just need a bit of patience

 

Well, for a level 17 for me, 210,000 credits is not nothing. Simple as that. Not rich, not poor, but I am certainly not going to spend that much money on on augments for a low level character, because my characters that low don't make nearly that money on their own. You must share your secrets with me, oh wise sage.

 

you do realize that you don't have to remove a mod to put a new one in?

 

Yes.... but if I get a piece of gear from a FP, and it has mods in it that I want to use in another piece of armor, I have to take the mods out of the new armor.

Edited July 8, 2012 by chimunga

[SabreMonkey]

i've come to terms with the legacy prices. They're supposed to be elite... Or something. Something you have to work really really really really hard for and still not have the money to get.

 

But i just can't comprehend the need to charge to put an augment slot into something. Next are they going to start charging to put mods in our gear?

 

please do not give them any ideas.

[chimunga]

The problem is it feels like the money sinks in TOR are targeted toward the high end player, which means they are effectively pricing the medium and casual players out of the market, and while on some things that might not be a bad thing, we are talking about the costs for cosmetic looks and basic gearing, like Augments, which could have helped more casual players close their gear gap a bit (take a look at the threads asking for ways to keep people out of group finder based on gear), these are things that could actually enhance play for the less hardcore player and keep the playing longer, but when costs seem incredibly out of reach that just discourages players.

 

Credit sinks are needed, and I don't think any of TOR credit sinks are bad, even the new Augment slot ones, the problem is TOR's credit sinks are way too deep, and they hurt the more casual player, and alt-aholics the most, and this should be the players base they want to grow.

 

Very well-put. I agree with you.

 

There's always the argument that casual players are supposed to be less awesome than the people that play eight hours a day, and that's true. Obviously someone who plays for less time is going to have a smaller bank and smaller possibilities, but it's like having a grading curve. If you base everything in the game off the people on top, they're the only ones that succeed. There's not any chance of a casual player getting anywhere if they keep basing the pricing off of the people that have the most money. I get that it gives the casual player something to strive for, but it's also disheartening and discouraging.

Edited July 8, 2012 by chimunga

[Dissentus]

As someone who mainly pvps and hates doing pve dailies, can't be bothered with constantly crafting and the like because I find it tedious, it took me months to even reach 1 million credits. After 1.3, months of credits gone instantly because I have to upgrade my gear to stay at a pace with everyone else. It felt like a bad night in Vegas. I can make credits if I really wanted to, but I should be able to make credits doing the thing I love with my time at a reasonable pace compared to the costs of things instead of it being a chore/job on the side. I shouldn't have to pay ridiculous amounts to remod my gear because you made it ugly and I want something that looks more appealing to me.

[Desdecardo]

I don't mind that particular sink. What I mind is when I have two rank 22 mods, one blue, and one purple. The blue one costs 3500 to remove. The purple one costs 20000. Uh what?

 

Yeah totally. It should not be that big of a markup.

 

Im guessing Bioware assumes that people that have nice purple things run a lot of flashpoints and ops so the money doesnt matter.

[Daeada]

can't be bothered with constantly crafting and the like because I find it tedious

 

Really? You find the easiest crafting system ever seen in a game tedious? You don't have to do anything other than click a few boxes every hour or so! How is that tedious? Tedious would be having to do everything yourself, what is in this game is the exact opposite.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Daeada

[Dissentus]

Really? You find the easiest crafting system ever seen in a game tedious? You don't have to do anything other than click a few boxes every hour or so! How is that tedious? Tedious would be having to do everything yourself, what is in this game is the exact opposite.

 

It is tedious in the sense that I have to do it when I find it boring and not so fun to do, not in the sense that it's hard to do. I just don't like crafting really.

[CarverX]

I agree with the OP. The money sink prices are simply dumb. 20k+ just taking a mod out, why?? If people want to do dailies and all that and have that time, then there is no limit to the amount of money they will have. There is also no limit to the amount of gear someone can craft so it is all pointless and creates a TIME sink not a money sink. Therefore those who have less time to play are the ones suffering with what they can't do, and the ones who do dailies, flashpoints all day everyday are just laughing at the prices.

 

The speeder license, mod removal, augment slot prices atm are all ridiculously high for the casual player who is looking to get their subs money's worth in the little time they get to play.

 

and heck the legacy cost being per character is a rip enough....hence the word "legacy".

[ekwalizer]

I have dealt with the cost of taking mods out of armor. I have come to terms with the cost of training as you level up. I understand the exorbitant cost of legacy perks.

 

However, I have come across the money sink that breaks the camels back.

Paying money, to the modification station, to put Augmentation slots into your armor. It's ridiculous. I makes no sense. And frankly, it's just plain dumb. It's a small amount of money, not that much per level, I understand. But it doesn't make sense. You not only have to pay for the Augment slot, and the Augment itself, but you have to pay to put the augment slot into your armor.

 

1000, 2500, 4000, 6000, 15000, and 30000 Credits.... To put one augment slot of your level into ONE peice of gear. That adds up. So if I was say, butting MK-1's into every piece of just my main gear (chest, hands, boots, legs) gear, it would cost 4000 credits. MK-1's are for level 9 augments. /facepalm.

 

I don't understand. Could someone please explain it to me in a way that makes sense?

 

1.) Augments are not required for success outside of high end PvP. They provide a slight edge in high end PvE but honestly you can excel without them.

 

2.) It isn't *that* expensive at all. Why would anyone waste the time/money/effort loading up a level 9 suit anyway? Play for another hour and you'll be level 12 and needing new gear. There is no reason pre-50 to use anything that isn't a drop or purchased through comms. I mean sure, you can go full-out purple crafted for your level the whole way but you are wasting money.

 

30,000 per augment is about the same as pulling out a level 50 modification. As a level 50, you can make tons of credits (350K per toon per day) just by doing the dailies on Corellia, Ilum and Belsavis. Start to finish is less than 2 hours. Don't have two hours? Ok, Ilum can be done in about 15 minutes and will net you around 50-75k. Corellia can be done in about 30 minutes or so and will bring in about 50-75K. Belsavis takes a little longer and has three heroics rather than one so the payout is substantially more.

 

I guess overall my point is getting fully augmented prior to level 50 is just silly. You are not going to notice a major difference. You are not going to instantly be uber. You will "out-grow" the equipment long before it has paid for itself. You are simply choosing to sink your credits into an investment with miniscule returns.

 

Level 50, different story. But as I pointed out, credits are ridiculously easy to get at level 50.

[Elyx]

Though I agree with the OP, how about everyone just comes up with some constructive criticism rather than launch into another Bioware bashing frenzy. Players wonder why they don't communicate much in the forums and stick to social networking means. So many good threads but then players ruin it with the negativity. I wouldn't listen to feedback if I was being called incompetent among other things.

 

Anyways, yeah the credit sinks are becoming way too frustrating. It's enough that we have to pay to rip out mods, crafters have to pay to farm the materials needed for the kits, but now we have to pay to augment the gear. Way too many credits sinks. I like the Legacy System but I'm not touching anything on it, just isn't worth the credits.

 

You bring up a good point. We should bring constructive solutions to the table.

 

It is easy to complain about this issue, without providing feedback on how to change it. yet...at the same time, it's not rocket science to figure out how to resolve the issue.

 

Make those things cheaper.

 

I think the hardest part is figuring out WHICH ones to discount, and how far. As an example, if customization is expected to be a normal, everyday aspect of the game, then a quick set of dailies should cover a full re-gear. this is roughly 100k for each worlds set of dailies. I think it's unrealistic to expect an average player to spend the 3 hours necessary (for those who disagree you have to add in travel time there...it really is about 3 hours), to do ALL the dailies. but doing...say....BH only is realistic. add in a daily HM FP and you probably have around 130k or so. take away about 30k for repairs and respec, and your looking at 100k for customization. which means a full set of gear switching mods.

 

inlcuding all the basic armor elements (head, chest, bracers, gloves, legs, boots, belt, weapon), and thats 8 pieces. Even without augment slots (which dont carry with your mods, so you'll have to reaugment your new custom gear), thats around 12k per mod piece. which is perfectly reasonable IMO. Im more of a fan of FREE customzation...you know, like it is in most other games....but ill settle for a reduction to 12k per mod for top level gear. lower level gear cam be less of course, but for lvl 56-61 gear the cap should be around 12k.

 

Augements are similar. 5-10k max IMO for mk-6 (and thats only for the slot creation...its still 50k+ for an augment kit off the GMT). a full re-augment will set you back about 40k. per set of gear you want customized. to me, that isn't unreasonable. sure...once you've done it its permanent...but the problem is its the standard now. sure, if you do nothing more then run normal FP's its not a big deal. but any form of progression, and its expected. It's like stims. if your in your guilds progression run (doesn't matter where your at, if your guilds learning the run, it's progression), then your shosrting your team by not bringing that stuff along. same with augements...im sure they are calculating all the new standards (tanking, DPS, healing) around the fact that people WILL have them. so making us pay exhorbant prices for something that is being forced upon us is unfair.

 

so if i wanted to do a complete re-haul of my gear (so i can actually feel like im customizing, not punishing myself for wanting to look different), total cost under my plan, with mods and augements, is 160-180k, which is a number that a person could realistically achieve in a solid nights play. a casual player with limited time (i.e. - do i run BH dailies tonight...or do an HM FP? egads, i have to choose!), perhaps 2 nights.

 

For those that think its too cheap, keep in mind that most other MMO's allow it for FREE, or at severely reduced rates. Even WoW's transmogrification cost is cheaper (which is stil mroe expensive then most games I've played with this feature).

 

here's a brief list of those things that I think are regular and expected part of the game and should be far cheaper then they are:

Repairs

Mod Switching

Augment slotting (this could vary, as it's not necessarily an every day event. perhaps only 20% of the cost...one full re-augment per week is acceptable)

Respec fees (this could simply be eased a bit..perhaps a reduction in the curve rather then at all levels)

 

legacy costs should be calculated with this IN MIND. it's almost as if they are balancing costs per item as if you are not doing anything else with your money...whatsoever. the above items should be baseline per day expectancies. I should not have to save my spare money and refrain from unlocking a few legacy items per week, as an example, just so i can have a different look a few times a week. I should be able to customize 3-4x per week, unlock 2-3 legacy items (less if its account-wide stuff, like racial unlock), respec at least once for the guild run on Friday nights, and still have some money left over (not much at this point really, but gotta have something to purchase that rocket fuel, or those fleet passes)

 

And I should be able to do this without sacrificing all my spare time as a casual player to do so. Im not talking about rare speeders here...or high end gearset purchases...or anything like that. I'm talking simple things that should be cheap enough that I can use daily if needed.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Elyx

[Felioats]

I think it's refreshing to see a game developer take inflation seriously.

 

But it does seem like the credit grind is so long, there's no point in trying. And that makes me not want to play.

[AlishaCurry]

IF you want can't afford the augment slot don't friggin put it in your gear, its an OPTION. People were paying serious money for gear that was crafted and got lucky with augment slot in it. So GO BUY THAT or stop friggin complaining.

[LordExozone]

It's a lame MMO mechanic to keep you playing.

 

Rather than going through all the trouble of developing immersive adaptive content that stays fun for a fairly long amount of time (for example, a large adaptive outdoor dungeon with different encounters every day, drawn each day from a pool of hundreds of different bosses) they simply make in-game goals (such as customizing your gear) so expensive that you need to do dailies on a regular basis to afford it. Resulting in it taking you longer to achieve your ingame goal of customizing your gear, which then results in you playing (read: paying) for a longer time.

 

It's a mechanic that works well, I doubt we have seen the end of it yet. And it could be worse. Pray that we will never see Star Trek Online's lockbox system in SWTOR...brrrrr .

[oakamp]

^This. Exactly.

 

agree, it just want to waste ur time and spend ur money,

that is all entertainment designed to do.

[JepFareborn]

Hey, I'd settle just for an update for using a Modification Station table anywhere to pull or extract mods out at a 'discounted' price, rather than doing it anywhere out in the field.

[Dissentus]

IF you want can't afford the augment slot don't friggin put it in your gear, its an OPTION. People were paying serious money for gear that was crafted and got lucky with augment slot in it. So GO BUY THAT or stop friggin complaining.

 

You are right. Why should I spend my time pvping (doing what I enjoy) and make absolutely nothing while others can spend time doing things they like to do, whether it be crafting, or pve stuff, and make way more credits easily. I should just be forced to wear the same set because I make no money, huh? I shouldn't change mods/enhancements around or buy augments either to be on par with others because it's an "option". I mean, why should I be allowed to optimize my gear when I spend the same amount of time in game. We all know that people discriminate against those "not up to par" in mmos, whether it be class/gear/etc. I mean, why would I want to better my character anyway?

 

Also, I'll complain as much as I want. I pay for this game.

[Grayseven]

Why are there complaints about the cost to pull mods from armor and weapons? Seriously, it is a credit sink that isn't really all that bad.

 

If I want the mod, first I check to see if I can make it (material on hand, time isn't a factor), then I check the GTN to see what they are selling for. If the cost to remove it is cheaper than the cost to buy it or make it...I remove it.

 

More often than not, the cost to remove a mod is much cheaper than the cost to buy another (either in credits or time or both).

 

A few k-credits isn't bad but people are acting like it is a game breaking issue.

[Gwena]

I don't really mind the cost of augments . . . it is the cost of augments, plus the cost of mod removal, plus the cost of legacy perks, plus repair costs, plus training costs . . . you get the idea. Augment costs are yet another credit sink.

 

I get the need for credit sinks, but I think they went a wee bit overboard in their zeal to keep us playing (grinding). I'd rather they try and spread them out a bit more, anyway -- I mean, why does it cost like 200 credits to travel across the galaxy, but 20,000 credits to remove a purple mod from my own gear?

 

But y'know, I am dealing with it. I look at my login screen and think, "Hmm, I could do dailies on my 50's for the umpteenth time, maybe save credits to temporarily get my Smuggler out of that ugly orange-ish cape set . . . or I could go level up my cute new Twi'lek Imperial Agent (saved up 1.5 mil for that), or my awesome Sith Warrior." An easy choice for me. As a plus, no need to worry about mod removal and augment costs being a huge expense on my alts.

[chimunga]

1.) Augments are not required for success outside of high end PvP. They provide a slight edge in high end PvE but honestly you can excel without them.

 

2.) It isn't *that* expensive at all. Why would anyone waste the time/money/effort loading up a level 9 suit anyway? Play for another hour and you'll be level 12 and needing new gear. There is no reason pre-50 to use anything that isn't a drop or purchased through comms. I mean sure, you can go full-out purple crafted for your level the whole way but you are wasting money.

 

30,000 per augment is about the same as pulling out a level 50 modification. As a level 50, you can make tons of credits (350K per toon per day) just by doing the dailies on Corellia, Ilum and Belsavis. Start to finish is less than 2 hours. Don't have two hours? Ok, Ilum can be done in about 15 minutes and will net you around 50-75k. Corellia can be done in about 30 minutes or so and will bring in about 50-75K. Belsavis takes a little longer and has three heroics rather than one so the payout is substantially more.

 

I guess overall my point is getting fully augmented prior to level 50 is just silly. You are not going to notice a major difference. You are not going to instantly be uber. You will "out-grow" the equipment long before it has paid for itself. You are simply choosing to sink your credits into an investment with miniscule returns.

 

Level 50, different story. But as I pointed out, credits are ridiculously easy to get at level 50.

 

No, they're not required. However, I think that argument is kind of lame, no offense intended. None of the perks from crafting from crafting a required. They just give you a little more edge, and frankly, make crafting as you level more bearable. Like I said before, I kind of look at it as reusable stims and medpacs for biochecm. You don't need to make them at low levels, but they are nice. And they make craftin interesting. If something is in the game, has low level stats, and is for low level gear, I should be able to put it on my armor without having pay. I wasn't even really suggesting you take out the credit sink for everyone. I was thinking you should just take it out for the crafters that make augment kits. (I also think you should take out the removal cost of taking out mods for cybertech). I think that it would give the a nice little perk to pick up Armormech, Synthweaving, and Armstech.

[whyzerman]

No, they're not required. However, I think that argument is kind of lame, no offense intended. None of the perks from crafting from crafting a required. They just give you a little more edge, and frankly, make crafting as you level more bearable. Like I said before, I kind of look at it as reusable stims and medpacs for biochecm. You don't need to make them at low levels, but they are nice. And they make craftin interesting. If something is in the game, has low level stats, and is for low level gear, I should be able to put it on my armor without having pay. I wasn't even really suggesting you take out the credit sink for everyone. I was thinking you should just take it out for the crafters that make augment kits. (I also think you should take out the removal cost of taking out mods for cybertech). I think that it would give the a nice little perk to pick up Armormech, Synthweaving, and Armstech.

 

Cause those 3 crafting skills didn't get a big perk already?

The demand for Augmentation kits right now are through the roof. The only people making money from crafting them are Armor tech, Arms tech and Synthweavers.

The demand for Augments right now are through the roof. Guess which 3 crafting skills make those.

The demand for crafted gear has also gone up since you can now augment any piece of gear and remove high level armoring over to that crafted piece.

 

All that money is going straight into these crafter's pockets. Yet the complaint I am hearing the most from this thread is coming from those people who feel they shouldn't have to be included in the new credit sink because they have these crafting skills. Which really makes no sense to me.

 

Arms tech's can make their own weapons. This is the lasting perk you get as an Arms Tech. Instead of hunting for a weapon upgrade as you level, you just make one for yourself. Once you hit 50 Arms Tech loses its usefulness, at least it did Pre-1.3. Now at 50 you can make and sell high level augments and augmentation kits as well as customizable weapons.

 

Synthweavers can make their own gear. No more having to grind out dailies at lower levels to get that custom piece or planetary commendations. If you need an upgrade, you just make it yourself. Like Arms Tech, once you hit 50 it loses its usefulness, at least it did pre-1.3. Same difference with Armor techs.

 

So why again should these people be exempt from paying the augmentation fee?