Just How Powerful Gear Really Is...

[Socialist]

Its an R. P. G. You want pure player vs player, go play a FPS on a console. Otherwise; whether you like it or not, gear will play a role even if not in the game, but rather via better PCs and equipment. RPGs really take out players "skill" to a certain degree anyway by providing auto aim and cooldown timers. Thats the way it is.

 

You mean post-WoW Western MMOs who are very casual minded.

 

That's why I don't PvP here ^_^

 

Though I love PvEing

[Khoraji]

Its an R. P. G. You want pure player vs player, go play a FPS on a console. Otherwise; whether you like it or not, gear will play a role even if not in the game, but rather via better PCs and equipment. RPGs really take out players "skill" to a certain degree anyway by providing auto aim and cooldown timers. Thats the way it is.

 

Exactly

 

If your looking for pure skill based PvP, you are in the wrong genre.

[Socialist]

So basically you want 2 completely seperate game types. One for PvE and one for PvP.

 

I'll make it easier for you. Play a game that isnt an RPG.

 

I believe you never played a RPG back when builds were more open, you could choose which Primary Stats to level and the player had more freedom in building the stats and skills of their characters.

 

Only post-WoW casual RPGs.

[Technohic]

You mean post-WoW Western MMOs who are very casual minded.

 

That's why I don't PvP here ^_^

 

Though I love PvEing

 

What games pre-WoW were different? I played some UO but it had long gotten into needing good gear long before WoW was even thought of.

[Khoraji]

You mean post-WoW Western MMOs who are very casual minded.

 

That's why I don't PvP here ^_^

 

Though I love PvEing

 

Oh so korean MMO's dont have a gear grind??

 

oh wait...

 

SWG didnt have gear right? oh wait...

 

Ultima Online?

 

Text-based MUDS?

 

yea...all have gear grinds, because they are RPG's

 

I would suggest Counter-Strike or SC2 if your looking to hone your competitive e-sport skills against others.

[Socialist]

What games pre-WoW were different? I played some UO but it had long gotten into needing good gear long before WoW was even thought of.

 

Let's pick Ragnarok for instance, very old MMORPG.

 

There was a HUGE room for player skill, since even the pick of stats, gear and skills was open for the player. it was a common sight undergeared players whooping some gearfreak who didn't have as much brain.

 

Here you can't pick your skills, they are the same for everybody, can't choose gear as they are tier sets you can just get better, nor there is much room for customization of talents.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Socialist

[Coriolan_Martius]

I am not sure about the OP's number but I think he is making a legitimate point. The gear progression is kind of crazy. PvP should mostly be about the players skill. The gear should act as a sort of "tie-breaker" rewarding a player for having gone through the effort to obtain it. Basically, if you have 2 players with almost equal skill and luck, it should allow one player to triumph over the other by a small margin.

 

However, it should not be a "I Win" button for the most dedicated players!

 

I think the difference from 1 level to the next should not be more than 10-15% and the grind factor should grow exponentially. The latter is especially important to avoid having either 1) overpowered players at the highest tier or 2) a gear reset to balance the system after x amount of time.

 

I loved to PvP from 10-49. I consistently scored among the top 2 or 3 and was always involved in helping my team capture / hold objectives or distracting enemies. However, I will not touch 50s PvP with a 10 foot pole. I am sorry but I am not interested in becoming target practice for other players until I earn my gear. I might enjoy rated PvP with my guildies but none of them have even BM. We are more PvE oriented anyways at 50.

 

Thankfully, I can level more alts and get my PvP fix via a fair fight!

Edited July 5, 2012 by Coriolan_Martius

[Technohic]

Oh so korean MMO's dont have a gear grind??

 

oh wait...

 

SWG didnt have gear right? oh wait...

 

Ultima Online?

 

Text-based MUDS?

 

yea...all have gear grinds, because they are RPG's

 

I would suggest Counter-Strike or SC2 if your looking to hone your competitive e-sport skills against others.

 

I wonder if he is talking SWG and UO type games where you could pretty much just buy the gear from the players. But those crafters sure as hell grinded to make it. You had to "grind" the gold or creds to buy it. I guess it didn't require you to PvP ungeared to get it....

[Khoraji]

Let's pick Ragnarok for instance, very old MMORPG.

 

There was a HUGE room for skill, since even the pick of stats, gear and skills was open for the player.

 

Here you can't pick your skills, they are the same for everybody, can't choose gear as they are tier sets you can just get better, nor there is much room for customization of talents.

 

Cant choose your gear? So you dont change mods/enhancements/augments to get the correct stats?

[ghettogenius]

wow i guess i can only repeat the last 2 posters

either compare all the gear augmented or all the gear unaugmented

 

Show me one person that augments their recruit gear. Hell, most people dont even augment BM given the current cost. Not to mention every grinders claim that it takes about a month to get WH - so why waste money on BM augments?

 

Personally I would augment BM, because it would take me alot longer to go from there to WH. However, I have nowhere near the credits for that so it wont be happening. Based on this I would say the OPs chosen metrics are pretty accurate for most average players.

Edited July 5, 2012 by ghettogenius

[Socialist]

Cant choose your gear? So you dont change mods/enhancements/augments to get the correct stats?

 

Through a few select tier sets. You can basically exchange mods between a few sets.

 

Those games there was almost an infinite combination of gear that could be used effectively endgame, even some gimmicks.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Socialist

[Technohic]

Let's pick Ragnarok for instance, very old MMORPG.

 

There was a HUGE room for player skill, since even the pick of stats, gear and skills was open for the player. it was a common sight undergeared players whooping some gearfreak who didn't have as much brain.

 

Here you can't pick your skills, they are the same for everybody, can't choose gear as they are tier sets you can just get better, nor there is much room for customization of talents.

 

Well, I am sure all MMOs strive to be Ragnarok because it's superior system drew a huge playerbase to rival that of all those "western" MMOs

[Socialist]

Well, I am sure all MMOs strive to be Ragnarok because it's superior system drew a huge playerbase to rival that of all those "western" MMOs

 

It is a 2001 MMO I believe with 1995 graphics

 

It is dead by now I believe, but by early 2000's it whooped some asses ^_^

 

Nowadays kids want casual PvP, that kind of deep thought strategy and skill based PvP only works in Asia I believe.

 

Proof of that is that WoW and this game aren't as popular as other games in Asia.

 

The bright side is that now PvP is democratized as everybody can do well if they win a few times to gear up.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Socialist

[JaerunSaway]

Figuring 21k hits for fully aug'd wh vs. 18k hits for BM -- 16.67% increase

then 22.48% bonus vs. 19.3% mitigation -- 1.15% mitigation advantage

Totals a 18.03 mitigation advantage:

(21/18)/(1.2248*.807)

 

PvP Dmg__18.20%___22.48%______23.91%

PvP Red __15.40%___18.35%______19.30%

 

Using your numbers (which seem to be a little off since you can hit 1330+ exp)

670.7 - 823.7 (747.2 avg) vs 826.1 - 988.1 (avg 907.1) 21.40% increase

Then factor in pvp bonus 1.2391*.8165 = 1.17 Damage advantage

Total is a 22.82 damage advantage.

 

Putting these together. Assuming 21k hits for wh and 18k hits for bm (which you did not list in your numbers) and following your definitions of battlemaster vs fully augmented warhero, the difference between the two gives the toon in fully augmented warhero roughly a 44.97% advantage over the battlemaster toon.

[Telree]

I don't want to go on a detailed post evaluating the causes and effects of this disparity but in a nutshell, as long as only a select few have access to this type of gear, there will never be enough people interested in doing any RWs. This also significantly impacts the casuals doing regular WZs as there is nothing stopping a person with this type of gear to wreck havoc in regular WZs.

 

Man, it's gear....yes, when you enter the 50 WZ/RWZ your gear isnt good. Nor should it be. Your NEW. All one has to do is grind it out, and eventually they too will be sporting a shiney new WH suit. The folks that currently have it, and Im sure you are aware of this little factoid) had to grind to get it. Time consuming yes (but isnt that the very nature of MMO's; timesinks) but imposible to do...absolutely not. In fact this game, gear is extreamly easy to get.

 

 

Less nerfing, and more learning.

[Pekish]

oh i edited my post but we are 3 page ahede

 

RECRUIT (http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/40a546f5-36ab-4b1f-af84-38eb3dc4f079)

BATTLE MASTER (http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/b8a2937c-4075-4137-bf65-335b7bc5109d)

WAR HERO (http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/57282281-99c5-4ea5-82ad-c555215d298b)

WH FULL AUGM (http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/d7e96bc6-f2ab-47cd-ba4e-49160ecd4a20)

 

Strength 1104.6 - 1343.0 - 1395.5 - 1395.5

 

Endurance 1148.7 - 1427.0 - 1545.6 - 1722.0

 

Power 283.0 - 388.0 - 360.0 - 612.0

 

Crit 265.0 - 338.0 - 389.0 - 389.0

 

Surge 303.0 - 61.0 - 318.0 - 318.0

 

Damage (Pri) 726.3 - 834.7 - 866.0 - 926.8

 

Damage (Sec) 127.8 - 137.7 - 145.8 - 145.8

 

Bonus Damage 300.3 - 375.7 - 380.0 - 440.8

 

Critical Chance 28.64% - 32.13% - 33.76% - 33.76%

 

Critical Multiplier 76.37% - 60.40% - 76.77% - 76.77%

 

Health 14126.9 - 16937.2 - 18135.6 - 19917.2

 

Expertise 896.0 - 1182.0 - 1370.0 - 1370.0

 

PvP Dmg Boost 18.20% - 22.48% - 24.97% - 24.97%

 

 

 

 

 

DAMAGE WISE

 

damage RECRUIT = 726.3+127.8+300.3+18.20% = 1365

 

damage BM = 834.7+137.7+375.7+22.48% = 1650

 

damage WH = 866.0+145.8+380.0+24.97% = 1740

 

damage WH(AUGM) = 926.8+145.8+440.8+24.97% = 1895

Edited July 5, 2012 by Pekish

[Overtone]

you can augment any gear, not just WH, if your goign to compare unaug'd Pre-WH gear, then you need to compared it to Non-Auged WH gear.

Augment's will throw any comparison out of wack if you leave it on 1 set and compare it to a non Aug set

 

 

you can take and Aug BM set, or put the BM mods in other items you plan to put WH mods in.

 

No point in wasting all the credits on augmenting recruiter gear. I can understand doing it for BM as it will take longer to upgrade to WH but even then it's not tops and it will just be replaced anyway.

[coerCez]

oh i edited my post but we are 3 page ahede

 

RECRUIT (http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/40a546f5-36ab-4b1f-af84-38eb3dc4f079)

BATTLE MASTER (http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/b8a2937c-4075-4137-bf65-335b7bc5109d)

WAR HERO (http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/57282281-99c5-4ea5-82ad-c555215d298b)

WH FULL AUGM (http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/d7e96bc6-f2ab-47cd-ba4e-49160ecd4a20)

 

Strength 1104.6 - 1343.0 - 1395.5 - 1395.5

 

Endurance 1148.7 - 1427.0 - 1545.6 - 1722.0

 

Power 283.0 - 388.0 - 360.0 - 612.0

 

Crit 265.0 - 338.0 - 389.0 - 389.0

 

Surge 303.0 - 61.0 - 318.0 - 318.0

 

Damage (Pri) 726.3 - 834.7 - 866.0 - 926.8

 

Damage (Sec) 127.8 - 137.7 - 145.8 - 145.8

 

Bonus Damage 300.3 - 375.7 - 380.0 - 440.8

 

Critical Chance 28.64% - 32.13% - 33.76% - 33.76%

 

Critical Multiplier 76.37% - 60.40% - 76.77% - 76.77%

 

Health 14126.9 - 16937.2 - 18135.6 - 19917.2

 

more legit numbers

(i forgot expertise 1 sec)

 

I think legitimacy of numbers are up to one's way of optimizing their Gear. I opted to Optimize for Power, as you can clearly see between your optimized set and mine there is more than 400+ power difference.

 

However, I am not arguing how to best optimize a gear. What I am arguing that people with crazy amount of time in their hand can optimize their gear to faceroll status and this is a huge gap between casual players.

[CKNairb]

No point in wasting all the credits on augmenting recruiter gear. I can understand doing it for BM as it will take longer to upgrade to WH but even then it's not tops and it will just be replaced anyway.

 

its not hard to get credits, you can go do a couple minutes of BH Dalies and get over 60K, and can even do it while queuing for WZ's. and thats not even including the crap credit reward from wZ's AND you can take the augments out before you sell them, so you dont lose the Augment for next teir

Edited July 5, 2012 by CKNairb

[coerCez]

its not hard to get credits, you can go do a couple minutes of BH Dalies and get over 60K, and can even do it while queuing for WZ's. and thats not even including the crap credit reward from wZ's

 

So an Augmentation Kit Mk-6 goes for about 70k and Power/STR augments are 150k a pop.

 

There are 13 slots if I am not mistaken and that is roughly 2.9M Credits...

[CKNairb]

So an Augmentation Kit Mk-6 goes for about 70k and Power/STR augments are 150k a pop.

 

There are 13 slots if I am not mistaken and that is roughly 2.9M Credits...

 

dont rebuy the Augments, take them out of the gear before you get rid of them

 

on PoT5 50K for the MK6, 30 for the slot, and estimated 30K to take the mod out. ( dont remember how much it takes to remove an augment )

 

no need to plug a new 150K for a new augment when it costs 100K+ less to just remove it from old gear

Edited July 5, 2012 by CKNairb

[Belly]

This just in... fully augmented and optimized War Hero gear is better than Battlemaster and recruit gear. You heard it here first.

 

+1

Imagine that.

[coerCez]

dont rebuy the Augments, take them out of the gear before you get rid of them

 

why does it matter? You still have to buy the first 13 lol...

[CKNairb]

why does it matter? You still have to buy the first 13 lol...

 

cause you can reuse Augments, yea you have to buy the first 13, but there is no reason to buy the 2nd 13. just reuse.

 

if you keep the augments you effectively save 1.3 Mil from your 2.9Mil tally

Edited July 5, 2012 by CKNairb

[coerCez]

cause you can reuse Augments, yea you have to buy the first 13, but there is no reason to buy the 2nd 13. just reuse.

 

Well duh... 2.9M is for the first 13, then when you have new gear it is 100k for Augmentation Kit and to purchase the Augment slot so that is another 1.3M on top of your 2.9M initial investment.