Incentives for Tanks and Healers(LFG Tool)

[Daeada]

I typically wait and see if a DPS is going to be a problem for me (I don't have the best gear and some of the people queuing for the BH daily comms well outgear me) but then shield the healer if it isn't going to be an issue. But sometimes I forget because we're cruising along. I don't mind reminders (most tanks probably don't.)

 

This is how I do it as well. I'll start with it on the healer, but if I ever see a dps pull threat from me in the middle of a fight, that dps is guarded from then on.

[Tharg]

As a tank, I get near zero queue times using the LFG Tool. That's my incentive.

 

Agreed.

[vojinsa]

Yes its fair to the DPS. Let's assume tanks and healers get equal queue times and can make 10 comms an hour. A DPS with a longer queue time only manages 3 comms an hour (reasonable considering 30-40 minute wait times). Incentivizing tanks and healers increases their comms an hour to 11, maybe 12 while the DPS go up to about 6 or 7 due to substantially shorter queues. The benefit is clearly in favor of the DPS just because they get in to see more content both per capita and net. If you're worried about everyone switching from DPS to tank/healer your fears are utterly unfounded as this has never happened in any MMO that implemented incentives for rolling tank/healer.

 

You say you grinded in WoW for 4 years. The dungeon finder wasn't even up in Burning Crusade (about 4 years ago) nor did DPS have the means to AoE down groups efficiently until the revisions before the release of WotLK . It wasn't until Dec. 2009 that the dungeon finder was added a YEAR into WotLK. So you could not have had the issues you claim to have had before Dec. 2009. So my question to you as a tank is: seriously? You had trouble tanking WotLK heroics? . I mean early Cataclysm I can see some trouble with dumb people, but that got worked out within 3 months especially with the initial blanket nerfs to AoE that weren't fixed until 6 months into Cata. I seriously question if these issues you claim to have had are real or if you just never got enough gear to handle the content.

 

i tanked them fine but (as you mentioned the date and ill take your word for it) when you grind heroics from 2009-2011 using idiot finder you will run into morons. now i believe you tanked thru Heroic Hall of Reflection on your ret. " I tanked them as a DPS ret paladin using a 2 hander, usually without a healer." i can see you steaming rolling it like a champ. you can seriously question w/e helps you thru the day but the issue is not the difficulty of a WoTLK dungeon or swtor FP. the issue is supplying tanks or healers with an incentive to put up with a group. before you post ask yourself two question.

 

why will they give them to tanks or healers and not dps?

why are there so few tanks or healers playing or queing?

[vojinsa]

Implement a gear check into the tool so that a level 50 decked out in state-of-the-art level 27 green gear can't queue for a hardmode FP or SM raid and fill the run with guaranteed failure, repair bills, and frustration.

 

 

cool so ill put on lvl 50 gear that may or may not help my class just to beat the lfg tool.

[GeneralShade]

Implement a gear check into the tool so that a level 50 decked out in state-of-the-art level 27 green gear can't queue for a hardmode FP or SM raid and fill the run with guaranteed failure, repair bills, and frustration.

 

If they ever do implement something like this I hope it accounts for PVP vs PVE gear and not item level. And even if it did, you could have someone with a legit high item level dps set and no tanking items queing as a tank. Used to happen all the time in WoW, although I haven't played it in months so I don't know if they've improved the gear gating since.

[DiLune]

cool so ill put on lvl 50 gear that may or may not help my class just to beat the lfg tool.

 

This reminds me of people who refuse to use a condom because they are not 100% effective.

[Lt_Latency]

DUAL SPEC!!!!

 

Way more people will play tanks and healers if the have a DPS spec for PvP or just have access to a dps spec in genera;

Edited June 29, 2012 by Lt_Latency

[DarthTHC]

If they ever do implement something like this I hope it accounts for PVP vs PVE gear and not item level. And even if it did, you could have someone with a legit high item level dps set and no tanking items queing as a tank. Used to happen all the time in WoW, although I haven't played it in months so I don't know if they've improved the gear gating since.

 

You'd think that software developers could put in a level check on the gear and while they're at it compare:

 

• The stats on the gear you're wearing to ensure it matches your spec and a PvE role and, if not, treat it as 0 level
  
• Your actual spec to the roles available to you in the LFG tool
  

[DarthTHC]

This reminds me of people who refuse to use a condom because they are not 100% effective.

 

Or, hey, in this 1 in 10,000 freak accident a guy got ejected from the car and because of that, HE LIVED! NO SEATBELT FOR ME!

 

If that mentality earns its just desserts early enough in life (prior to reproduction), they call that a "Darwin Award Winner".

[vojinsa]

This reminds me of people who refuse to use a condom because they are not 100% effective.

 

go raw or go home.

 

gear check does not a players skill but thx for the condom quote.

[Russlem]

why will they give them to tanks or healers and not dps?

why are there so few tanks or healers playing or queing?

 

I've addressed both of these questions already. If you don't wish to read my posts that's not my problem, but I'll resummarize here:

 

Your first question is answered simply by they give them to whoever the dungeon finder needs most currently, exactly like the WoW system. That will never, ever be DPS which is why people assume DPS aren't in the equation. Offering incentives to tanks and healers in WoW vastly reduced queue times for DPS and I already provided an example of a realistic situation in which the benefit to the DPS for incentivizing tanks/healers outweighed the actual benefit to the tanks/healers. Read my post.

 

To your second question I already answered: tanks and healers have more responsibility in a group. They're just as complicated rotationally, but have more complexity because they require better reaction times than DPS does. More responsibility and complexity means these classes are less attractive than classes with no/little responsibility and less complexity. Read my post.

 

I do, however, find it very telling you decided to push the hardest and last released dungeon in the final tier of content 2 years into WotLK to disprove my assertion that I tanked heroics on my Ret Paladin. Didn't feel confident enough calling BS on Gundrak or Halls of Lightning? Of course you didn't, you know those dungeons were an absolute joke and could easily be tanked by a well geared DPS with a 2 hander. That's why you misleadingly and dishonestly pushed the one dungeon that was there for a small fraction of the total expansion because this conversation isn't actually about helping the game for you. Its about winning an argument.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Russlem

[bsmolke]

Tank here.

 

I use the LFG tool from time to time, but it's frustrating especially when you get an under geared group that doesn't know the fights. And then when I try and explain them, they don't want to listen and start complaining when I ask DPS roles to do the extra things during the fight like activate this or that.

 

Getting a healer your compatible with too isn't easy. I was paired with an ok and 2 DPS that were absolute window-lickers. Since fights were taking so long healer would sometimes go OOM and then it's a wipe and the DPS blames healer/tank. I've also had great groups where things go smoothly, and we have a great run, it's nice to see someone type "Great heals, great tank, thanks!" after a run, but it doesn't make up for the crappy groups.

 

TL;DR

It's a thankless job tanking or healing in PUGs. I'm not threatening to stop playing my Vanguard soon, but I'd really like to see some incentive thrown at tanks/healers because of the lack of love we get from groups.

[SajmanPeetee]

*Warning: Spoilers*

 

I'll give you an example of why a lot of players don't like to play Healers just from yesterday. Playing on my low level healing Operative, we get Mandolorian Raiders.

 

Our group make up is Jugg (Tank), Marauder, Sniper, and Operative (Healer, Me). Not only am I going to have to heal, I am also the only CC in the group.

 

So we get moving and right away it becomes obvious that the Marauder wants to tank. He's not focusing on the Jugg's target and is taking his own target in every pull. My job has gone from healing one person with a few spot heals, to healing two people with a few spot heals and CCing. At this point, I am literally doing 3x as much as anyone else in the group.

 

So we get up to the medical droids you can scavenge to help you. Does anyone else in the group have scavenging? Nope, luckily I do. We get up to the sliced elevator, does anyone else in the group have slicing? Nope, luckily I do.

 

Now we're at the Jedi boarding party, the correct strategy for this fight is to burn the Sentinel, and try to kill the other 3 at roughly the same time, not the easiest fight in the world to try to explain to people. We start the fight with the Jugg running right in and breaking my CC on the Smuggler, the Jugg/Sniper are on the Sentinel but the Marauder is on the Sage, the Sentinel starts force leaping on to me, he's wrecking me so I am focusing my heals on keeping myself alive and the Jugg with the Smuggler also on him while the Marauder dies because he's tanking the Sage and the Trooper. We wipe and they blame me for not healing.

 

We try again and this time we succeed.

 

We clear the rest of the instance without much of a hitch and the final boss drops an Orange set of Cunning gloves. The Sniper and I both need and he beats me on the roll. Now I am not going to cry about loot, he has just as much right to roll on it as I do but recognize it for what is it. I've done 4x as much for the group as this Sniper has, he walks away with the loot and I walk away with nothing.

 

The instance is done, let's recap. I had to do most of the work within the flashpoint, I received no loot and the only thing I did receive was blame for our one wipe. The Marauder got to treat the flashpoint like a single player quest with 3 companions and he got to walk away with 2 loots.

 

It's very frustrating playing the Healer, you do significantly more work then the DPS does and you get blamed for every wipe.

[DorkTrooper]

It's very frustrating playing the Healer, you do significantly more work then the DPS does and you get blamed for every wipe.

 

As someone who primarily tanks, I can see why healing a PUG would be the least fun thing to do. Everyone tends to speed their way through the quest/FP without coordinating attacks. Many damagers do not even wait for the tank to attack first, and many tanks charge ahead without placing a target marker or asking which mob is going to be cc'd and thus break it as soon as it's cast.

 

While the circus is passing by at the front of the battle, the healer is often running along behind desperately healing as fast as humanly possible and never given a break to recharge their force power, pick up loot or lore objects, or get the group fully healed before the next bunch of mobs.

 

Throw in the factors of inexperience from any or all members of the group (everybody has a first time running these things, after all) and undergearing, and it's a wonder anyone is willing to take on the healing role in a PUG beyond BT/Esseles.

[alrun]

I do take the path of saying, yelling and waiting.

 

When we start out I might point out that we have like 2/3 Cc''s. Then I'll wait and see how things go. Usually tough as people will tend to pull everything they see without thinking. If I have the time to mark and announce my CC like "star is my CC with force lift" - you can always bet that the Star will be broken 2 seconds into the fight.

 

After that it will take 2-3 deaths or wipes till they might start considering that some Cc might increase the overall FP run time and decrease the number of deaths and running.

 

People yelling for missing heals or bad tanking still somewhat hit, but I know I am usually doing my job. I may not be the best tank/heal bot, but I now a team is more than 4 people doing things their own way.

 

I with there was an option to reward team players. I want to give out rewards to good tanks, healers and even dps doing what they are supposed to do and even more able to see where they went wrong ("sorry, broke the cc / my bad" - good).

 

I want to see people working on completing the instance / I find it very tiring to see people start flaming after a death or a wipe. Instead of handing out blame targets people should focus on what can be improved. And this does hit the beginners to the elite / in every junk there are people who cannot stand to fail or be told to do things different or belief there is only a single solution to a problem (hey on xx they write we have todo this). Take a somewhat complex fight and you'll see four groups handling it in three ways / no problem as long as things are done.

 

Yes explaining things gets tiresome, but everybody starts from the bottom. Telling people how they can improve and where to find more information will help us all. Far more than shouting and blaming. Yes people doing more work than others can receive a benefit for that.

[vojinsa]

ok ill bite since you want to drag this argument out. the op said and i disagreed with giving healers/tanks xtra for queing.

 

my original post on page 1 so i don't stress anyone out.

 

no no no no no no no.

 

there are 0 incentives to que for FP compared to WoW dungeons. i had multiple tanks and healers on WoW and grinding dungeons there soured the xperience even with the goodie bag. why que for a FP when sm ev/kp drops better gear and gives the most bang for the buck. how long does the avg FP take? im asking cuz i will never step foot in one. 20-30 min a fp? sm ev/kp takes 35-45 min (yes thats what we were avg before they changed it to SM). any mmo with this trinity system will have this issue and catering to 2 out of the three does not solve the issue.

 

what part of this post says they were hard? im going against a trinity system and leaning to a player problem and not a dungeon / fp difficulty. on page 10 and ill post so its not too demanding.

 

Quote: Originally Posted by DiLune View Post

I started a SW Tank on one server and got him to 50 as the server was dying. I re-rolled a SW Tank on another server and started leveling him along with friends and that server was dying. Stopped leveling him for a while and played Mass Effect 3, Diablo 3, etc. But I came back and finally finished him to 50, along with my friends and moved to the new Super Server with free transfers. I know how to gear a tank, I've been tanking and healing in games for many, many years.

 

So I've never run an HM but my base HP are 20k and defense are about as good as you can reasonably buy with daily tokens and credits. Last night I got into my first HM KUS, via LFG, and told the group "this is my first time here." I got harrassed by the healer who proceeded to complain the whole time that we were going to have a wipe fest. I asked for refreshers on bosses (I read up on them but hadn't done them) and got none. The healer wouldn't top me off after a fight, I had to do it myself.

 

The only time I died was when the healer refused to establish LoS on me. Otherwise we had no wipes, he never had agro on him and we finished the instance in decent time.

 

But I had to eat **** the entire time just because I had never done it before. I'm a good tank and had decent gear...

 

What is my incentive for queuing in LFG again?

unless asa akira or tori black is popping out of that goodie bag why would any tank/healer que and go thru this?

 

im asking why would a tank / healer que and go thru the bs. not one comment about wow / swtor dungeon difficulty. theres more on the page so reread if interested.

 

page 11 dual spec entered my post and i asked.

just a quick question for the dual spec seeking crew. when choosing an AC did it not occur to you that tanks/healers are more in supply than dps? not trying to boil it down to roll one and problem solved but this is what happens in a trinity system. as a tank/healer im sure my que is faster than a dps but that means i will get grouped (if i ever que in swtor) with marauder tanks and AoE dps healers that cannot follow a kill order. it happened in my 4 years of grinding WoW and im pretty sure the mentality has not changed.

 

So ill ask again.

 

unless lisa ann or jenna haze is popping out of the goodie bag why que? if they reward tanks/healers with xtra comms or rakata then is it fair to the dps?

 

my post are about fairness to dps and the bs tanks / healers go thru just for a meaningless bag. at what point of my post did you get i said they were hard? you said "So my question to you as a tank is: seriously? You had trouble tanking WotLK heroics? . I mean early Cataclysm I can see some trouble with dumb people, but that got worked out within 3 months especially with the initial blanket nerfs to AoE that weren't fixed until 6 months into Cata. I seriously question if these issues you claim to have had are real or if you just never got enough gear to handle the content." you seem focused on questioning my gear or ability and chest beat your own. when i mentioned 1 instance that you said you had 0 issue w/o a healer in dps spec im the one arguing?

 

I do, however, find it very telling you decided to push the hardest and last released dungeon in the final tier of content 2 years into WotLK to disprove my assertion that I tanked heroics on my Ret Paladin. Didn't feel confident enough calling BS on Gundrak or Halls of Lightning? Of course you didn't, you know those dungeons were an absolute joke and could easily be tanked by a well geared DPS with a 2 hander. That's why you misleadingly and dishonestly pushed the one dungeon that was there for a small fraction of the total expansion because this conversation isn't actually about helping the game for you. Its about winning an argument.

 

no sir you did. dont fist pump about easy mode Hwotlk and get upset when i call you out about it. i did not mislead anyone or lie and say im 7ft tall and can shoot bolts of lightning out my ar$e.

 

ill lead you to the water.

why will they give them to tanks or healers and not dps?

 

they have more responsibility and get more crap than dps.

 

why are there so few tanks or healers playing or queing?

 

"I've tanked in FFXI, WoW, Rift, WAR, and other MMO's I'm just not thinking about right now". you said it perfectly.

Edited June 30, 2012 by vojinsa

[KiranK]

Two reasons there are no tanks in the queue:

 

1) Bioware screws over tanks. Tank ratio in old ops, 1/8. Tank ratio in FPs 1/4. 1/8 != 1/4. 1 tank got screwed, since operations had half as many tanks as every other type of content, so half the tanks rerolled DPS.

 

2) Since tank ratio is so small, tanks get all their gear easily. Since they have all their gear, they don't need to queue, at least not for anything you can queue for(SM ops and HM FPs).

 

You can thank Bioware and their fail system for this debacle. The tank problem was apparent the moment I started running operations. As a tank, you couldn't get in an ops group unless you had a dedicated slot, ergo you reroll to something else you can PUG with. Now that you can PUG as a tank, no one is playing them.

[Russlem]

snip

 

I skimmed your post and quickly noticed the numerous straw mans and red herrings in your post. Like I said, this isn't a discussion for you, its about winning an argument. Move along people nothing to see here.

[jadjay]

For me, add dual spec. As someone who primarily runs in pvp but likes to do flashpoints aswell I can't afford to respec 5-10 times a week if I want to do my daily group finder and pvp quest. If I could respec I would be able to run my hybrid sorc spec for pvp and run heal spec for pve with out being somewhat gimped in a healing role, which is something I won't do since I don't know what kind of group I may get with the group finder. Same goes for my PT, I run pyro or AP in pvp (hav'nt decided which I like better) but I would like to tank in pve and can't unless I respec, which again I can't afford. Add in dual spec BW and you will have atleast one more tank or healer in the queue.

[ProsaicProse]

Though I usually play healers, I'm not particularly keen on special treatment for them (or tanks) to queue in this game. However, I think if Bioware adds in something like "dual spec" that allows people to switch relatively easily between two set specs (and quickslot set-ups), then we probably see a more healers and tanks entering queue.

 

As it stands now, most people will probably level and do dailies in DPS spec, so they have to redo their entire setup and spend a lot of credits every time they switch. It's too grueling (or just plain mind numbing) otherwise. Speaking for myself, it isn't worth the hassle to enter queue for some meager reward when switching and setting up quickslots is so much more expensive and annoying.

Edited July 1, 2012 by ProsaicProse

[Esproc]

No to incentives.

 

I Tank, and heal, and dps, but main is a tank.

 

I have shelved my main tank for the moment, but have other tanks as well, damn 1.3

 

Never used incentives before as I always tanked for friends and guildies and never got incentives for per-grouping, even if only one other person in the group

 

So no, there should not be extras given out "willy nilly" for anything.

[vojinsa]

I skimmed your post and quickly noticed the numerous straw mans and red herrings in your post. Like I said, this isn't a discussion for you, its about winning an argument. Move along people nothing to see here.

 

lol i accept your bow out.

[RocNessMonster]

These are the kinds of Flashpoints that Bioware should be looking to build in the future. It's win for everyone, including them.

 

I disagree here. Black Rock Depths is still by far the best dungeon Blizzard ever designed. The fifteen minute corridor fest just doesn't cut it for me. It's not an adventure, just a hallway for grinding.

 

Anyone thinking dual-spec will be the cure-all for LFG, you are in for a rude awakening. Just like in WOW the majority will have a PVE DPS spec and a PVP DPS spec. If they aren't tanking now, adding dual-spec wont encourage them to tank then.

Edited July 1, 2012 by RocNessMonster

[Esproc]

I disagree here. Black Rock Depths is still by far the best dungeon Blizzard ever designed. The fifteen minute corridor fest just doesn't cut it for me. It's not an adventure, just a hallway for grinding.

 

Anyone thinking dual-spec will be the cure-all for LFG, you are in for a rude awakening. Just like in WOW the majority will have a PVE DPS spec and a PVP DPS spec. If they aren't tanking now, adding dual-spec wont encourage them to tank then.

 

If they do dual spec a toon to be either a tank or healer, they will sadly have to learn the mechanics, or be carried.

 

Let's hope it's learn.

[Calexus]

To be honest I think I'm spent with the LFG tool as a tank, not because bioware made it wrong but because any retard can pick up a DPS and push the LFG button. In previous builds I had no issues with tanking within a PUG because usually it was never a true pug it was a group of people I had built up a repport with - they knew my tactics and I knew theirs so we'd end up just going though FPs saying 'LOL' to eachother or just talking about random real life stuff while we made our way through the FP.

 

Fast forward to 1.3 and I get DPSers pulling mobs and telling me that i need to be doing A, B, and C as a tank...when I've been tanking since launch and I've never done these things because its the role of a DPS. Oh and lets not forget when the team wipes! thats when they become especially nasty with the finger pointing. It's never a DPSers fault - Nevermind the fact that they tried to "Anakin/Leeroy" a mob while the tank was still dealing with the previous mob and taunts were on cooldown. Or when they run ahead and the healer is overstretched because not only does he have to AOE heal the group but he has to account for the idiot that is on the other side of the room.

 

However this is all fine as most tanks/healers dont have to PUG - I think most of us do it because we are bored or need something essential to our toon. This can easily be done via a guild run and I can reckon things are about to get worse for DPSers that pug as tanks/healers are slowly getting the message.

 

EDIT:

 

Reading this topic after this post im not surprised that tanks and healers feel the same way I do - DPSers treat us like bottom feeders when actually we are probably the most important aspect of a group. There is no incentive to deal with stupid people is the answer to the problem of the OP.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Calexus