Incentives for Tanks and Healers(LFG Tool)

[FourTwent]

So I was reading in another thread that WoW at one time had extra incentives for tanks and healers to queue for raids, or dungeons or whatever, to help reduce the DPS queue times.

 

INSTEAD of everyone jumping on the Cross Server/Single server bandwagon. What are some good incentives that Bioware could use to help entice the Tanks and Healers to queue up for flashpoints?

 

I think XP would be ok. . .but then the incentive stops at 50. So what about a multiplies to how many credits they get or even just extra comms(which is what I assume would be done if implemented).

 

EDIT - Please try to remember this is not a discussion about cross server vs single server. Please keep the topic on incentives for healers/tanks to bring them into the LFG system more often(instead of just tanking/healing in guild runs)

 

Bullet points so far

- boost in comms

- dual spec

- rebalance for 6 person groups(1 heal/1tank/4 dps)

Edited June 28, 2012 by FourTwent

[SajmanPeetee]

I apologize for not answering your question but people advocating for cross server are clueless. The problem would only get worse because theres still no tanks and youd only be adding DPS to queue making it longer.

[Callianna]

Most healers/tanks have learned from painful experience it's not worth using lfg unless you know the healer or know the tank. Incentives will not cure the long queue times, there are far more dps than there are healers and tanks.

[lordofdamornin]

So I was reading in another thread that WoW at one time had extra incentives for tanks and healers to queue for raids, or dungeons or whatever, to help reduce the DPS queue times.

 

INSTEAD of everyone jumping on the Cross Server/Single server bandwagon. What are some good incentives that Bioware could use to help entice the Tanks and Healers to queue up for flashpoints?

 

I think XP would be ok. . .but then the incentive stops at 50. So what about a multiplies to how many credits they get or even just extra comms(which is what I assume would be done if implemented).

 

This doesn't work, long term, because it doesn't fix the root problem - comparitively speaking, not many want to tank (or heal) in a Trinity-based model. No matter how easy you make tanking or healing, and no matter what you reasonably throw at them as a bribe, the proven fact is that it just doesn't work.

 

The answer is to make tanking and healing engaging and fun (like dps can be), instead of being a job, or a responsibliity, respectively. The problem, is that you can't do this if your combat model is based on the Trinity. You just can't.

 

On the other side of the coin, if you move away from the Trinity, then you have to seriously amp up the game's difficulty. This is a decision that has its own nest of problems, and is largely unexplored. So, we are still stuck with MMO's that follow the established combat model path.

 

For you specifically, Enda - start tanking (or healing, since you have an available heal spec). Maybe you will like it, or maybe you will see why most don't do it. Either way, the problem is solved for you.

 

Riôt

Edited June 28, 2012 by lordofdamornin

[vojinsa]

So I was reading in another thread that WoW at one time had extra incentives for tanks and healers to queue for raids, or dungeons or whatever, to help reduce the DPS queue times.

 

INSTEAD of everyone jumping on the Cross Server/Single server bandwagon. What are some good incentives that Bioware could use to help entice the Tanks and Healers to queue up for flashpoints?

 

I think XP would be ok. . .but then the incentive stops at 50. So what about a multiplies to how many credits they get or even just extra comms(which is what I assume would be done if implemented).

 

 

 

no no no no no no no.

 

there are 0 incentives to que for FP compared to WoW dungeons. i had multiple tanks and healers on WoW and grinding dungeons there soured the xperience even with the goodie bag. why que for a FP when sm ev/kp drops better gear and gives the most bang for the buck. how long does the avg FP take? im asking cuz i will never step foot in one. 20-30 min a fp? sm ev/kp takes 35-45 min (yes thats what we were avg before they changed it to SM). any mmo with this trinity system will have this issue and catering to 2 out of the three does not solve the issue.

[Shingara]

The incentive to tanks and healers is that they have much shorter q times for randoms then dps do, that said a very benficial point to a single server lfg is that its a great way to meet new people who could either become friends or able to join your guild if unguilded.

[TheSeventhJedi]

As soon as I heard this game was coming out, I played a few other MMOs so I would know the basics of MMO play when this came out.

 

Know what I learned? Playing DPS is lots of instant gratification while you're playing, but lots of waiting around while you're not.

 

With four person groups in SWToR, especially with classes that can spray lightning from their fingers, I knew DPS players were going to saturate the game.

 

So, with that in mind, I rolled nothing but tanks and healers (two per faction.) This morning, at 9:30 EST (hardly prime time,) I queued the daily random HM button. I was literally in a group before the window graphic could even close. I'm learning to love playing a key role, getting good at it (from playing both a tank and a healer,) and definitely getting the most bang for my buck. I like having lots of DPS in the pool, because if I need to kick an idiot, they're easy to replace.

[jgelling]

This doesn't work, long term, because it doesn't fix the root problem - comparitively speaking, not many want to tank (or heal) in a Trinity-based model. No matter how easy you make tanking or healing, and no matter what you reasonably throw at them as a bribe, the proven fact is that it just doesn't work.

 

The answer is to make tanking and healing engaging and fun (like dps can be), instead of being a job, or a responsibliity, respectively. The problem, is that you can't do this if your combat model is based on the Trinity. You just can't.

 

Incentives always work. They may not work as expected, or as well as you'd like, but offering people something for their time will always produce some kind of result.

 

Bribes need to happen. It'll produce marginal results, but marginal is better than nothing.

 

A better alternative is to scrap the Trinity, like you say, but that requires a complete overhaul of the classes. If you want the future, look towards new games like GW2 or any non-MMO, because the Trinity is an obsolete concept. It's probably too late for SWTOR to reinvent their combat role system, or if they did, they wouldn't do so until a major expansion a long way down the road, I'd imagine.

 

Until then, bribes are better than nothing. As for the best bribes, anything could work. I don't think extra comms is nearly as enticing as even a chance at rare loot, though. Maybe hand out a random chest of the appropriate level. Or maybe some really cool titles for doing x number of random flashpoints? Anything to make people feel valued for flinging themselves at mobs like a meat shield.

Edited June 28, 2012 by jgelling

[guardian_titan]

WoW still has the incentives for queuing as a tank/healer. It's called "Call to Arms" and only appears if there's too few tanks or healers in the queue. More often than not, tanks have it but healers get it from time to time. Even with this incentive and LFG being cross server in WoW, queues can still end up at 10 minutes for healers and 30 minutes for DPS. Holiday bosses aren't worth running anymore. Queue as a healer and it's a 10 minute wait. Queue as a DPS and you're waiting 20-30 minutes. I missed my DPS queue 3 times the other day because I went AFK and the queue hit while I was away. So I spent an hour for one measely boss that lasts 3 minutes tops. You'd think something so easy would have relatively short queues (under 5 minutes for DPS at least), but it doesn't.

 

What can SWTOR do to reduce queues and entice more healers/tanks to queue? For me, I hate healing without addons. I also healed for the last 5 1/2 years in WoW. I'm tired of it. I came here for a fresh start hoping I could actually DPS. I do tank in WoW on and off, but I'm certainly not good enough to do it regularly. I leveled a jedi guardian and sith assassin as tanks all the way to 50, but I'm no where near confident enough to tank a flashpoint. Doesn't help that you can't even craft tanking mods so I can't help but feel like I'm gimping myself by using power or crit mods instead. I'm so stuck in the WoW mentality of gearing that breaking out of that is hard. Crit or attack power for a tank is laughable in WoW but seems to be perfectly fine here. The gearing just confuses the hell out of me. So many stats and stat combinations with enhancements that I don't know if putting this enhancement into my gear makes me a better tank or make me a healer's nightmare.

 

I do think there is 1 thing Bioware can do that will decrease queue times: mutli-spec. No one wants to constantly respec. It's a massive credit sink, especially for those that have little money. Add in multi-spec and that will widen the pool drastically. Everyone but sniper/gunslinger and sentinel/marauder will be able to have a DPS spec and a tank or healer spec if they choose. Multi-spec should've come with LFG in all honesty. The respec character perk is a nice idea, but I don't see that going too far. People have to redo their bars every time they respec and then the credit cost on top of that. If anything, the respec cost and the hassle with redoing bars is a massive disincentive for people to play any role beyond their main role. It's also a disincentive for some players to attempt to experiment with different roles.

[Riggler]

So I was reading in another thread that WoW at one time had extra incentives for tanks and healers to queue for raids, or dungeons or whatever, to help reduce the DPS queue times.

 

INSTEAD of everyone jumping on the Cross Server/Single server bandwagon. What are some good incentives that Bioware could use to help entice the Tanks and Healers to queue up for flashpoints?

 

I think XP would be ok. . .but then the incentive stops at 50. So what about a multiplies to how many credits they get or even just extra comms(which is what I assume would be done if implemented).

 

I prefer to run with my guild and friends...not sure any incentive would sway me to use the LFG more or less on my healer...I may use it once or twice to check it out, but my mainstay will always be to run with the guildies...no loot concerns, we all are on vent, and just all around an easier affair in my opinion...

[Amuntet]

I'm sure reducing tank damage but increasing their threat is a good start. Right?

[jgelling]

I prefer to run with my guild and friends...not sure any incentive would sway me to use the LFG more or less on my healer...I may use it once or twice to check it out, but my mainstay will always be to run with the guildies...no loot concerns, we all are on vent, and just all around an easier affair in my opinion...

 

True, and as a healer I can imagine you not wanting to deal with DPS kids that have most of the fun and pass the buck onto the healer/tank if anything goes wrong.

 

But there is a certain fun to PUGs in that it's not going to be a crisp, clean run every time. It's about the only thing unpredictable about the dungeons.

 

But yeah, not sure it's worth it given how these dungeons are designed - which is very standard - and how painful that can be with uncooperative or new players. The 4 man groups are also a bit daft to me, given the population that plays DPS.

 

They could just turn all existing 4 mans into 5 man FPs with an extra DPS slot and no changes at all to balance, for random LFG only or at least pre-50, and almost everyone would be happier. Lower queue times, easier content for new players, less blame on one particular player, and everyone's a winner. Or just make them 5 mans outright - whatever works.

Edited June 28, 2012 by jgelling

[Catsmeat]

I'm sure reducing tank damage but increasing their threat is a good start. Right?

 

So true.

 

After patch I fired up my main character, a tank. He wasn't fun to play anymore so I've stopped running him. Those solo things one does like cranking out dailies is now so unpleasantly slow and tedious to do for lack of damage output. Started a new char to focus on.

 

Nerf my tank, guess I'll not be playing him any more unless my guild needs a tank in a bad way.

[lordofdamornin]

Incentives always work. They may not work as expected, or as well as you'd like, but offering people something for their time will always produce some kind of result.

 

Bribes need to happen. It'll produce marginal results, but marginal is better than nothing.

 

A better alternative is to scrap the Trinity, like you say, but that requires a complete overhaul of the classes. If you want the future, look towards new games like GW2 or any non-MMO, because the Trinity is an obsolete concept. It's probably too late for SWTOR to reinvent their combat role system, or if they did, they wouldn't do so until a major expansion a long way down the road, I'd imagine.

 

Until then, bribes are better than nothing. As for the best bribes, anything could work. I don't think extra comms is nearly as enticing as even a chance at rare loot, though. Maybe hand out a random chest of the appropriate level. Or maybe some really cool titles for doing x number of random flashpoints? Anything to make people feel valued for flinging themselves at mobs like a meat shield.

 

You'd be right, if the bribes were worth it - but they aren't, and quite frankly, can't be.

 

Dps in WoW already have a valid complaint about the tank bribes - where is their extra stuff? They are also running the same Flashpoint as the tank, putting in the same time, being part of achieving the same goal, and their point/complaint is very valid.

 

The Call to Arms was one of the dumbest things WoW ever did for this genre, and I hope Bioware does not repeat it.

 

What Bioware actually needs to do, is change their Flashpoint design philosophy - from long and mildly challenging, to short and Lost Island level of challenge, with levels of loot commensurate with said challenge. If tanks can be done in '30, even with a bad group, more of them will come for the ride.

 

Additionally, the SM Ops being part of the Group Finder is pulling tanks and healers out of the Flashpoint queues.

 

Believe it.

 

Riôt

[jgelling]

You'd be right, if the bribes were worth it - but they aren't, and quite frankly, can't be.

 

Dps in WoW already have a valid complaint about the tank bribes - where is their extra stuff? They are also running the same Flashpoint as the tank, putting in the same time, being part of achieving the same goal, and their point/complaint is very valid.

 

The Call to Arms was one of the dumbest things WoW ever did for this genre, and I hope Bioware does not repeat it.

 

What Bioware actually needs to do, is change their Flashpoint design philosophy - from long and mildly challenging, to short and Lost Island level of challenge, with levels of loot commensurate with said challenge. If tanks can be done in '30, even with a bad group, more of them will come for the ride.

 

Additionally, the SM Ops being part of the Group Finder is pulling tanks and healers out of the Flashpoint queues.

 

Believe it.

 

Riôt

 

I believe it!

 

I just don't think it'll happen, since that sounds like a lot of work. I'm throwing out better than nothing solutions because I don't see them making fundamental changes in the game - they haven't broken the MMO mold on just about anything, besides voice overs and on-the-go crafting, maybe, and to redesign their dungeons completely now?

 

Bribes are a much easier solution. How many programming hours can it take to add a chest to the rewards provided page along with some in-game prompts begging people to tank/heal? Give me the code, I know C, I can probably figure it out in a few days, although there might be a random bug where your toon explodes on contact afterwords...

Edited June 28, 2012 by jgelling

[Tiddymun]

I prefer to run with my guild and friends...not sure any incentive would sway me to use the LFG more or less on my healer...I may use it once or twice to check it out, but my mainstay will always be to run with the guildies...no loot concerns, we all are on vent, and just all around an easier affair in my opinion...

 

True, and as a healer I can imagine you not wanting to deal with DPS kids that have most of the fun and pass the buck onto the healer/tank if anything goes wrong.

 

I'd go along with these points.

 

As a Seer, I've found the vast bulk of PuGs here to be no fun whatsoever and the LFG tool hasn't improved the experience for me over the past couple of days. I've now developed an attitude and opinion which, though based on experience, will sour any such groups for me in the future.

 

The reasons are numerous but I suppose the main one is insanespeed... where the mentality is get them done asap, grab the loot and out. Zipbangnext! As a consequence there's no real concern but manic DpSfesting... great for the buttonspamming DpS classes but a royal pain for healer and (also from experience) a tank. Sure, the manicness can up the reaction-fuelled ante but after a while this is not fun.

 

So no amount of bribery will get me into a PuG anymore, nor make me use the LFG tool. Doing content with guildmembers or friends is an infinitely more rewarding game experience... at least for me... and for that I need no bribe.

[lordofdamornin]

I believe it!

 

I just don't think it'll happen, since that sounds like a lot of work. I'm throwing out better than nothing solutions because I don't see them making fundamental changes in the game - they haven't broken the MMO mold on just about anything, besides voice overs and on-the-go crafting, maybe, and to redesign their dungeons completely now?

 

Bribes are a much easier solution. How many programming hours can it take to add a chest to the rewards provided page along with some in-game prompts begging people to tank/heal? Give me the code, I know C, I can probably figure it out in a few days, although there might be a random bug where your toon explodes on contact afterwords...

 

I don't use the band-aid approach - I fix things the right way.

 

I didn't say they should retool the current Flashpoints, I meant that future Flashpoints should follow the model I suggested. I had thought that was self-evident, but I guess not. And to your point, it would actually end up being a lot less work, since they would be significantly shorter. Perhaps they could release them quicker using this model, too.

 

Again, you are missing the point. Bribes are a bad idea in the first place, and on top of that - they don't work. Perhaps, if the community treated its tanks and healers better, there might be more of them.

 

Just a thought.

 

Riôt

[Valkirus]

I apologize for not answering your question but people advocating for cross server are clueless. The problem would only get worse because theres still no tanks and youd only be adding DPS to queue making it longer.

 

So much wrong with your post.....in WoW they added extra incentives to get tanks and healers to que up using the LFG tool and guess what..it worked! The average wait times now for dps for '" random" dungeon runs in WoW is 15 mins...as dps. Of course it works esp well because it is cross server.

[Anrew]

I think it gives people incentive to learn to play more then just dps class for smugglers and troopers and whatnot. I'm just glad I made my first two 50's a tank and healer. I think they could probably get away with letting companions tank. I mean my guild is fairly casual so my main is almost in full rakata and a couple of my companions are in full columni and I'm pretty certain I could keep my tank companion up on any hm boss except maybe the eye guy in maelstrom although I read they made him easier just don't recall how.

[SaintAvalon]

Don't be ***** to tanks, and you won't get **** tanks.

 

I love tanking but I hate the people I tend to run into. Those that pull when they aren't tanking (don't do that, it's my job, i have it planned based on my abilities). Those that queue as one thing (dps for instance) but roll on tank gear... ***, let me have my tank gear.

 

Be friendly to your tank, and we will exist, and come back to tank more with you.

 

Make friends with a tank and you get a pocket tank, i had a list on Wall of Light of people that wanted a tank... i was that tank.

 

Why not, i love tanking, I just don't like rude dick holes.

[JasonNH]

I prefer to run with my guild and friends...not sure any incentive would sway me to use the LFG more or less on my healer...I may use it once or twice to check it out, but my mainstay will always be to run with the guildies...no loot concerns, we all are on vent, and just all around an easier affair in my opinion...

 

True, and as a healer I can imagine you not wanting to deal with DPS kids that have most of the fun and pass the buck onto the healer/tank if anything goes wrong.

 

I'd go along with these points.

 

As a Seer, I've found the vast bulk of PuGs here to be no fun whatsoever and the LFG tool hasn't improved the experience for me over the past couple of days. I've now developed an attitude and opinion which, though based on experience, will sour any such groups for me in the future.

 

All these. I got the impression from my experiences yesterday that a number of DPS players imagined that having a tank and healer with you meant that you can run around with reckless abandon without consequences. I'm letting things settle down a bit and will try again later. I'm hoping after the initial newness rubs off, and ignore lists get populated, things will be a little more fun for a healer in a PUG.

[Jason_Melnik]

WHY THERE IS A LACK OF TANKS

SW:TOR DOES NOT TEACH PLAYERS HOW TO PROPERLY PLAY THEIR CLASSES

when the tanks >HAVE TO< do their job, it is too late. they are level 50 and >ZERO< experience. that is because all the pulls outside of flash points(heroics) are a combination of 2normals/2strongs/1 elite. CC 2 and the tank might as well not be there. enter a flashpoint and he has no clue, gives up, rerolls DPS. other classes get away without having to know ****.

BioWare need to teach people their class roles by showing them what each class does. NPC groups should consist of healers,dps and tanks as a demonstration. not focusing the healer? be prepared to never finish the fight. focusing the tank? be prepared to never finish the fight. not tanking dps? be prepared to watch YOUR healer drop every pull. having 10 different things every pull is nonsense,teaches players nothing, stupid.

THIS CAN BE DONE AT LOW LEVEL 2-MAN HEROICS

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THIS IS HOW YOU GET INTO A GROUP WITHOUT HAVING TO WAIT FOR A QUEUE

 

The DPS, aka YOU:

waits for threat

does not break CC

CC's the right target

apologised for *********** up

is polite

offtanks if **** hits the fan

doesn't demand to mark the target

waits for buffs if someone dies

doesn't abuse the healer

HAS CC (sorry if you picked this class, this is the only legit reason to ***** about to BW)

knows how to play the class

GETS INVITED WITHOUT EVER NEEDING LFG

 

the worst thing about playing a tank is being useless in PVP, having huge repair bills, questing taking forever, being forced to carry around tank+dps gear, having to put up with rubbish group members(YOU?).

[Thuggy]

I apologize for not answering your question but people advocating for cross server are clueless. The problem would only get worse because theres still no tanks and youd only be adding DPS to queue making it longer.

 

While it's true, cross-server lfg will not really impact the ratio of players in specific roles...What it does do is expand the pool of players allowing for more groups to be formed in a given period of time. That often results in queues being shorter...simply because of the logistics.

 

The root of the problem, however, is the the trinity system...and just as importantly...the barrier to entry for tanks. Tanking in general is a hassle, and as a player, you can't "dabble" in tanking. To be an asset, you have to have a specifically itemized set of gear, and a dedicated spec. Doing this will often handicap you in other parts of the game....be it Dailies (Something that's HEAVILY emphasized in swtor) or PvP. It stops many players, who would otherwise be willing to tank a HM every once in awhile from even entertaining the idea...further decreasing an already high stress role relative to DPS.

[Bhaers]

So I was reading in another thread that WoW at one time had extra incentives for tanks and healers to queue for raids, or dungeons or whatever, to help reduce the DPS queue times.

 

As a person who has played tanks and healers almost exclusively for many years and who as a person who is now casual but used to raid: It won't fix the issue.

 

The issue is one of PUG players abusing tanks/healers for no good reason. Bribes to those to be abused won't change the base attitude of the remaining players.

 

If BW could magically make players behave and be respectful to the meatbag pressing his face into a boss' crotch to keep the damage off them or actually listen to the healers instructions in terms of standing in a pool of acid then we could solve world peace.

[FourTwent]

As a person who has played tanks and healers almost exclusively for many years and who as a person who is now casual but used to raid: It won't fix the issue.

 

The issue is one of PUG players abusing tanks/healers for no good reason. Bribes to those to be abused won't change the base attitude of the remaining players.

 

If BW could magically make players behave and be respectful to the meatbag pressing his face into a boss' crotch to keep the damage off them or actually listen to the healers instructions in terms of standing in a pool of acid then we could solve world peace.

 

Can't the tank just ignore the dps that is 'abusing' them? I'm sure it takes less than 3 pulls before you can tell if the DPS is going to be good and not go crazy. So 5 minutes in you just ignore the DPS causing the trouble, drop group and requeue. Healers can do this too. It's not like the queue time for healers and tanks are long anyway. Plus if you wanted you could tell the rest of your team to queue up, you just wanna ignore said DPS and get a better one to queue up(or just use the vote to kick option)