1.3 TTK went UP. Let's settle this once and for all.

[Bazzoong]

What a complete travesty of a thread. I feel like im teaching a kindergarten math class.

 

Astarica, Zaodon, I am surprised that the two of you are hilariously being the most vocal about all this. I expected you two of all people to be aware, and you both have it completely backward.

 

The original post clearly shows that TTK has decreased. Stop pretending like TTK is the same thing as damage. Yes, damage has increased over the warzone, but it cannot be applied to KILL YOU FASTER. Have you forgotten what "time to kill" refers to? The point in time from where you begin taking damage to the point where you are dead is absolutely larger. There is no dispute, this is just a fact. You can argue about how you eventually die anyway, but that does not change the facts.

 

Zaodon's little gem of BS in the middle caught my eye. Just because your damage is higher MOST of the time and lower for 15 seconds does not mean TTK is lower most of the time.

1) You're not attacking the same person for that 1min45s. If you are, then your TTK is > 1min45s .

2) If you're attacking anybody less than 30 attacks, you would have killed them faster with an adrenal. At bare minimum, 30 * 1.5 = ~45 seconds. TTK at 45 seconds is ludicrously high, not low. So again, you're not dealing more damage unless you're been wailing on them forever.

 

This illusory world you've constructed where people are dying faster is purely false. The only thing I can fathom is that your server is full of bads and nobody bothered to activate relics.... Ok, so maybe bads kill you faster. Good players, the ones who know how to focus fire, and work around your defensive CDs, the ones who are responsible for "OMG TTK IS TOO LOW", are going to kill you much slower.

 

Hahaha. awesome, totally missing the point. Yes, everyone is bad except you, teach me math pretty please so I can apply it meaningfully.

[Theagg]

All I know is that I'm dying more often post 1.3. Absolutely no doubt about it.

 

I don't know wether this is due to the overall increase in sustained damage, or the sudden influx of fully augmented gear boosting damage unevenly across the board, ie those who had the resources to augment everything vs those who don't creating a marked imbalance (or a mix of both) but I'm dropping faster than I ever did before 1.3, especially when it comes to being hit by classes that primarily dish out 'sustained' damage. For example, sorcerors are ripping through me at a noticeably faster rate.

 

As a result, Bioware should think about setting up a cafe in the spawn area, because I'm seeing a lot more of it with 1.3 in action.

[Astarica]

You have it backwards on this. TTK has gone way down on the good players and the change is relatively minor versus the bad players. When you're in one of those Darth Vader "I got you now" moments by popping all your relic + adrenal + CDs, previously in 1.2 there's an extremely high probability a nearby Marauder pop his Intimidating Roar and now you watch your character start crying on the floor for about 40% of the entire duration of your burst DPS. While the frequency of this event has not changed, it is no longer possible for any amount of skill to predict when those adrenal/relic come since they no longer exist.

 

When it comes to good players, burst DPS is countered by CC + CD and all the good players know when their opponent will unload on them.

[dcgregorya]

Here is a simple example using fake numbers (fake, because the example works anyway, and its easier to see with fake numbers):

 

Lets say I do 10,000 damage every 15 seconds (10 global cool downs).

 

In 2 minutes, that would be 80,000 damage. (10k * 8)

 

In 1.2, with relic+adrenal, I can affect my damage for 15 seconds. Lets just say I do double damage in that time.

20k + (10k*7) = 90,000 damage with relic+adrenals.

 

In 1.3, relic+adrenals are gone, but we now do more damage. Lets just say its 15% more damage. That's 11.5k per 15 seconds.

11.5k*8 = 92,000.

 

92000 > 90000.

 

Therefore, we now deal less BURST, but more DPS overall, therefore faster TTK overall.

 

Except the enemy has more HP and in a real fight burst > sustained because of incoming heals and etc.

[Pekish]

u are dieing more often in Ranked? that's because u are fighting good player instead of a mix match of a 4 people premade with random people

 

 

I notice that in Ranked or i die faster or i dont die but that's because or my team is well coordinated and they can keep me alive forever or we are just beeing outplay and the enemy kill me so quickly (usually in the lengh of a couple of stun) like i never saw ever before

 

one thing is a 4 premade that often share cap 2-2 one thing is a 8premade in vent that can coordinate attacks even if the divide 2-6 it's stil 6 person perfectly gear and coordinated vs the maximum 4 of before.

 

 

if u are dieing faster in normal warzone

a) u are playing with a bunch of green gear guy because BW gave the token for FREE recruit but i see tons more of green gear people then ever before all the people that think :

"...now "not ranked" is "easy" because all premade went ranked and I can rock 50 in green gear like they rocked 1-49..."

so u see group of 2 - 3 player joining together with 4 piece of green and 200 expertise 17 valor...

 

b) people return to your server that was good pvp to try ranked and in the free time they play not ranked and they still own you faster then not good player

Edited June 28, 2012 by Pekish

[kitsinni]

More HP's on everyone (augments), less burst (relics/adrenals), more heals and more consistant damage. Of course the two power relics together are about half of using one of the old relics as far as power and no adrenal so the burst kills are going to go down, especially against players with more end (augments) getting healed by healers with more consistent heals (aug/relics).

 

It is not the end of the world, but TTK is going to go up and burst classes like Pyrotechs are going to have a harder time bursting down a healer. Basically the change made it so more healer = win.

[TheSolidPat]

Am I alone to think the obvious has been left out in this thread?

 

Basically everyone has calculated the static Power vs the old relic Power activation on that time period.

 

But we can't just do that. Let's say you used your burst at Grass turret, killed the last enemies there and your Relics are now on Cooldown. Well then you have to cap the turret and maybe guard it. Or maybe you even died. Nonetheless, you find yourself with useless time and your new static attack power is then useless. It cannot be counted in the equation, since you are not using it. By the time you fight again, your relic might be up again or at least close to

 

So i don't think this is even a matter of TTK at all. The way i see it, this is a good advantage to bad pvpers who cannot use activation tools properly at the expense of good players who keep their activation for the right time to do strategic moves.

 

But based on this, TTK can either be UP or DOWN, it doesn't really matter and it's pointless to calculate it that way.

 

We have no other options anyway. Double static power it is!

[Astarica]

Why do people always want to make the TTK thread about skill/coordination? Go play on Huttball where even a very bad team can trivially coordiante focus fire (kill the ball carrier first). Before 1.3 I didn't see ball carrier dying every 3 seconds and the ball switch possession 10 times in 1 minute until there was only one side left. That simply didn't happen. And no I don't think people suddenly figured out that they're supposed to attack the ball carrier after 1.3. It's got nothing to do with rated/coordiantion/skill especially given bad players are more likely to attack the ball carrier first (he's glowing, must be a good idea) and actually ignore the healers.

 

The game is now just a power versus power game and it's not because your side suddenly started coordinating better on vent. One side has to come victorious in the power game and it could be yours, but it's not because you did anything different. Before 1.3 there are ways to circumvent the power games. Now there isn't one and the better geared + classes team will win even if they've very bad strategy.

[Astarica]

Am I alone to think the obvious has been left out in this thread?

 

Basically everyone has calculated the static Power vs the old relic Power activation on that time period.

 

But we can't just do that. Let's say you used your burst at Grass turret, killed the last enemies there and your Relics are now on Cooldown. Well then you have to cap the turret and maybe guard it. Or maybe you even died. Nonetheless, you find yourself with useless time and your new static attack power is then useless. It cannot be counted in the equation, since you are not using it. By the time you fight again, your relic might be up again or at least close to

 

So i don't think this is even a matter of TTK at all. The way i see it, this is a good advantage to bad pvpers who cannot use activation tools properly at the expense of good players who keep their activation for the right time to do strategic moves.

 

But based on this, TTK can either be UP or DOWN, it doesn't really matter and it's pointless to calculate it that way.

 

We have no other options anyway. Double static power it is!

 

Except you can also use your burst DPS and get immediatel hit by Intimidating Roar/Whirlwind, or flat out killed by another character's burst DPS while attempting to do yours.

 

I noticed the 'TTK is up' guy seems to assume everyone besides them is dumb so that when you do your burst DPS, your recipient just facetanks it and die. Yeah in that case TTK is definiitely up. I lost track of how many times I used my burst and watch my character start crying on the floor or spinning in a circle in a whirlwind and wonder why I even bothered to activate my relic/adrenal. Maybe bad players don't do this to you, but the good players sure do this to me all the time.

[Uchoo]

I am dying a lot less in 1.3. Most of the people I talk to die a lot less. Let me see what the problem is here...

 

I think I've got it! You can't CC people through insane burst cooldowns anymore! Now the damage is always steady...

 

I haven't seen an outgoing number even close to what I did in 1.2.

[Astarica]

I am dying a lot less in 1.3. Most of the people I talk to die a lot less. Let me see what the problem is here...

 

I think I've got it! You can't CC people through insane burst cooldowns anymore! Now the damage is always steady...

 

I haven't seen an outgoing number even close to what I did in 1.2.

 

Because nobody ever thought it'd be a good idea to CC you while you're doing your insane burst?

[SinnedWill]

Except you can also use your burst DPS and get immediatel hit by Intimidating Roar/Whirlwind, or flat out killed by another character's burst DPS while attempting to do yours.

 

I noticed the 'TTK is up' guy seems to assume everyone besides them is dumb so that when you do your burst DPS, your recipient just facetanks it and die. Yeah in that case TTK is definiitely up. I lost track of how many times I used my burst and watch my character start crying on the floor or spinning in a circle in a whirlwind and wonder why I even bothered to activate my relic/adrenal. Maybe bad players don't do this to you, but the good players sure do this to me all the time.

 

Did you not catch on that those good players would also wait until they had full resolve before activating their relic/adrenal (or they'd activate it when they were NEARLY full resolve and stun-break off cooldown).

 

Some classes have very powerful abilities (or abilities that are used to improve the effectiveness of others) on long cooldowns and they actually rely on these abilities to deal their most significant damage (they were typically used in conjunction with relic/adrenals).

 

Some classes that suffer significantly from relic/adrenal changes:

Tankassin/Shadow - recklessness ability has a long cooldown (this is what gives their shocks the extra 50% crit damage bonuses from energized shock procs) - thus, the significance of its damage has dropped remarkably.

Madness/Balance Sorc/Sage - recklessness is our only method to virtually guarantee crits with Death Field/FiB - using relics in conjunction with it resulted in damage values FAR SUPERIOR to the values we see now - this was our most powerful combo to attack with (used to be ~3800 with relic/adrenal popped). Now, with 2x War Hero Power Relics, I'm LUCKY to break 3k damage with that combo. And Death Field does ~1400 damge for non-crits (up from ~1300's that I would get without relic/adrenal during 1.2).

 

So... please, guys, enlighten me as to how TTK has actually decreased.

[Zaodon]

Except the enemy has more HP.

 

This claim is 100% false. No one has more HP as of Update 1.3. It was already possible to fully augment your gear in 1.2. Update 1.3 just makes the process of augmentation easier. But it does not, in ANY WAY, allow for more Endurance/HP than 1.2 allowed.

[Ahhmyface]

Some classes have very powerful abilities (or abilities that are used to improve the effectiveness of others) on long cooldowns and they actually rely on these abilities to deal their most significant damage (they were typically used in conjunction with relic/adrenals).

 

So... please, guys, enlighten me as to how TTK has actually decreased.

 

ding ding ding, we have a winner

 

Astarica, your scenario where you pop your relic and then eat a cc for 15 seconds doesn't change a thing, it still takes you minutes of hacking and slashing away before you break even to even one relic cooldown. And that doesn't ever happen. Either you killed your target within a reasonable amount of time (making your increased dps insignificant) or you didn't, meaning your burst was insufficient and your TTK is super high. In neither scenario does the new power boost make a lick of difference. The point is that it's simply not possible to USE your passive power bonus to kill something faster.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[SinnedWill]

This claim is 100% false. No one has more HP as of Update 1.3. It was already possible to fully augment your gear in 1.2. Update 1.3 just makes the process of augmentation easier. But it does not, in ANY WAY, allow for more Endurance/HP than 1.2 allowed.

 

Really? How exactly did you augment your war hero Focus/Generator/Shield, Earpiece, Implants, Relic, Belt, and Bracers? Unless you're using PvE crit-crafted gears (for bracers, relics, implants, and non-weapon off-hands), it was impossible to have augment slots on them and if you WERE using all of these, you would've only had 701 expertise (assuming you were in full WH augmented gear for Helm/Chest/Gloves/Legs/Boots/Main-hand weapon) - or... 842 expertise if you were a dual-wielder - so even with your big HP bonus, you'd still get rocked.

 

Now, even as far as PvE gear is concerned, you couldn't augment the best PvE gears until 1.3 (go ahead, craft yourself some weak-sauce lv. 50 gear and augment it - it'll still be significantly less total endurance than a guy in full campaign gear that wasn't augmented).

Edited June 28, 2012 by SinnedWill

[Theagg]

This claim is 100% false. No one has more HP as of Update 1.3. It was already possible to fully augment your gear in 1.2. Update 1.3 just makes the process of augmentation easier. But it does not, in ANY WAY, allow for more Endurance/HP than 1.2 allowed.

 

Nope, in 1.2 you could not augment the following, Matrix cubes, War Hero/Batlemaster relics, the WH/BM offhand, the earpieces, implants, belts and bracers.

 

Thats 8 extra slots that can now carry augments in a purely PVP build. ( definitely an increase in HP right there)

 

And a whopping increase in passive power output too. (8 x 18 for the lvl 22 augs)

Edited June 28, 2012 by Theagg

[IronmanSS]

This claim is 100% false. No one has more HP as of Update 1.3. It was already possible to fully augment your gear in 1.2. Update 1.3 just makes the process of augmentation easier. But it does not, in ANY WAY, allow for more Endurance/HP than 1.2 allowed.

 

They have 120 more hp from matrix cubes at the very least. I'm also willing to bet that the vast majority of players in fact picked up at least 500 more hp as of 1.3 since most ppl did not pick up artifice and RE their 1st endgame drop sorc/sin offhands or magically crit craft orange custom belt/bracers that no one could make. So, at least a few BiS items that were previously not available w augments are now augmentable - so to say that NO ONE has the potential for more hp as of 1.3 is false.

[RogueNights]

idk if its one way or another, its different though. The change affects what kills are even attempted possible so its pretty hard to judge on ttk. Will make a couple statements though

 

Front loading dps increases the speed of your first kill reducing damage you take, slowing your death rate which means you'll be alive longer to do damage in the future. If its fast enough it can be quite substantial, e.g. you kill before enemy can get off a stun. Secondly, alot of time is spend out of combat meaning only having it active a portion of the time may not be as bad as it seems...

[jblazen]

What a complete travesty of a thread. I feel like im teaching a kindergarten math class.

 

Astarica, Zaodon, I am surprised that the two of you are hilariously being the most vocal about all this. I expected you two of all people to be aware, and you both have it completely backward.

 

The original post clearly shows that TTK has decreased. Stop pretending like TTK is the same thing as damage. Yes, damage has increased over the warzone, but it cannot be applied to KILL YOU FASTER. Have you forgotten what "time to kill" refers to? The point in time from where you begin taking damage to the point where you are dead is absolutely larger. There is no dispute, this is just a fact. You can argue about how you eventually die anyway, but that does not change the facts.

 

Zaodon's little gem of BS in the middle caught my eye. Just because your damage is higher MOST of the time and lower for 15 seconds does not mean TTK is lower most of the time.

1) You're not attacking the same person for that 1min45s. If you are, then your TTK is > 1min45s .

2) If you're attacking anybody less than 30 attacks, you would have killed them faster with an adrenal. At bare minimum, 30 * 1.5 = ~45 seconds. TTK at 45 seconds is ludicrously high, not low. So again, you're not dealing more damage unless you're been wailing on them forever.

 

This illusory world you've constructed where people are dying faster is purely false. The only thing I can fathom is that your server is full of bads and nobody bothered to activate relics.... Ok, so maybe bads kill you faster. Good players, the ones who know how to focus fire, and work around your defensive CDs, the ones who are responsible for "OMG TTK IS TOO LOW", are going to kill you much slower.

 

You have no idea what you're talking about. Many sites out there have logged regular and ranked WZ's and shown that TTK has decreased in almost all pvp situations. The conclusion is that adding augments and a lot of primary stats outweighs the reduction in burst from relics/adrenals.

 

Logic is hard.

[Astarica]

Did you not catch on that those good players would also wait until they had full resolve before activating their relic/adrenal (or they'd activate it when they were NEARLY full resolve and stun-break off cooldown).

 

Some classes have very powerful abilities (or abilities that are used to improve the effectiveness of others) on long cooldowns and they actually rely on these abilities to deal their most significant damage (they were typically used in conjunction with relic/adrenals).

 

Some classes that suffer significantly from relic/adrenal changes:

Tankassin/Shadow - recklessness ability has a long cooldown (this is what gives their shocks the extra 50% crit damage bonuses from energized shock procs) - thus, the significance of its damage has dropped remarkably.

Madness/Balance Sorc/Sage - recklessness is our only method to virtually guarantee crits with Death Field/FiB - using relics in conjunction with it resulted in damage values FAR SUPERIOR to the values we see now - this was our most powerful combo to attack with (used to be ~3800 with relic/adrenal popped). Now, with 2x War Hero Power Relics, I'm LUCKY to break 3k damage with that combo. And Death Field does ~1400 damge for non-crits (up from ~1300's that I would get without relic/adrenal during 1.2).

 

So... please, guys, enlighten me as to how TTK has actually decreased.

 

Unless you regularly get CCed by bad players for no reason, if you waited for a full resolve before doing burst DPS you're not doing burst DPS anywhere near an ideal time.

 

There's pretty much zero correlation between what your resolve bar looks like and when it is a good time to burst DPS. If you happen to have a full bar when you need to burst DPS that's great but it's never anything you can count on.

[Xinika]

Don't get fooled by the heavy armor, mercs are just as squishy as sorceres. We are the 2 squishiest classes in this game

 

Lol no.

[Astarica]

They have 120 more hp from matrix cubes at the very least. I'm also willing to bet that the vast majority of players in fact picked up at least 500 more hp as of 1.3 since most ppl did not pick up artifice and RE their 1st endgame drop sorc/sin offhands or magically crit craft orange custom belt/bracers that no one could make. So, at least a few BiS items that were previously not available w augments are now augmentable - so to say that NO ONE has the potential for more hp as of 1.3 is false.

 

Assuming you take the overkill augments (12 endurance 18 Power), 18 Power trumps 12 endurance quite easily. I guess you could take something that's like 18 endurance 12 power if such a thing existed but I don't know if anyone gearing up like that.

[vimm]

Lol no.

 

Not sure why people think armor is useless.

[jblazen]

Not sure why people think armor is useless.

 

Because a lot of dmg bypasses armor.

 

And for the dmg that is reduced by armor, there's always talents and abilities that have armor penetration, etc.

[Astarica]

Because a lot of dmg bypasses armor.

 

And for the dmg that is reduced by armor, there's always talents and abilities that have armor penetration, etc.

 

Armor may not save you when it counts but not wearing armor isn't going to save you eihter.