Sorc/Sage heals need to be returned to pre 1.2, other heals need buffs

[Keggitz]

Weird I get no cast bar when I use them. Do they have a cd, yes. But they don't require casting therefore they ARE instant.

 

If you want the cds diminished, that is a compaling idea.

[Mr_Clark]

Maybe BW could buff outbound heals, but leave self healing the same (or at least a much smaller buff)? I.e. I can heal my team more easily, but I can't keep multiple DPS tied up if they focus on trying to drop me. That way, if a healer is left alone to free cast, then the healer is very powerful, but if you are in their face they need to heavily focused on just staying alive.

 

I also agree with earlier post on removing target markers from ranked WZ's.

 

These two changes would add a nice layer of strategy IMHO.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Mr_Clark

[TheLordMaster]

Weird I get no cast bar when I use them. Do they have a cd, yes. But they don't require casting therefore they ARE instant.

 

If you want the cds diminished, that is a compaling idea.

 

Fine let me restate since your purposely being a troll. Our two instant casts are complete garbage and can in no way contribute to keeping ourselves or a teamate up in any regard for a valuable amount of time. Our bubble while instant cast only absorbs 3k damage (less than one hit) and cannot be reapplied until static barrier diminishes (~20sec). Our HOT resurgence ticks are not strong and the time between ticks is far to long to be worth a damn.

 

In short these two abilities aren't very useful in ranked PvP. Our most useful heals dark heal and our aoe heal are always interrupted and so is dark infusion although most of the time the cast cannot be finished before a target dies.

Edited June 28, 2012 by TheLordMaster

[Darth_Philar]

Weird I get no cast bar when I use them. Do they have a cd, yes. But they don't require casting therefore they ARE instant.

 

If you want the cds diminished, that is a compaling idea.

 

They are instant cast, yes, but they are not instant heals. Well, the Bubble would be, if it wasn't already on CD before you entered "lol try to kite" mode. Fact is, a HoT that ticks for less health than most DoTs and does less healing than the free basic attack does DPS is not going to be of any use during kite mode. The bubble could have been useful, if you hadn't died before it came off of CD.

[Ecchi_]

Weird I get no cast bar when I use them. Do they have a cd, yes. But they don't require casting therefore they ARE instant.

 

If you want the cds diminished, that is a compaling idea.

 

Quit being a troll. You know full well what everyone is referring to. These two heals are not enough to keep ANY target up while the casted/channeled heals are on interrupt cooldown.

 

Every sorceress/sage spec is lacking for pvp currently.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Ecchi_

[Winkywinky]

1. this is the first MMO that i wasnt a main healer in 10 years

2. healers were allways TANKS in pvp... you guys act like this is something new...

 

3.. until GUARD is nerfed, healers cant get buffed.... until healers ban together and understand that the real problem is guard and thats its why they are balanced in pvp they wont get the buffs needed to last without GUARD..

 

i play a vanguard....i guard every good healer.....i leave the bad ones alone because they let me die...i understand just how OP guard is..

[Keggitz]

I'm not trying to troll I'm a sorc healer just like you. I feel your pain.

 

Issues are

 

Our instanst heals are lack luster.

 

Our big heals are easy to shut down.

 

These two issues reduces our survivibility and our ability to contribute to competive team play.

 

In my opinion that is all that needs to be said.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Keggitz

[TheLordMaster]

1. this is the first MMO that i wasnt a main healer in 10 years

2. healers were allways TANKS in pvp... you guys act like this is something new...

 

3.. until GUARD is nerfed, healers cant get buffed.... until healers ban together and understand that the real problem is guard and thats its why they are balanced in pvp they wont get the buffs needed to last without GUARD..

 

i play a vanguard....i guard every good healer.....i leave the bad ones alone because they let me die...i understand just how OP guard is..

 

From your statement that you guard all good healers and leave the bad ones I can tell your talking about normal. This is talking about ranked, where the issues TRUELY come out. As a sorc healer w/ a guard and taunts being thrown you will still die and your tank will die because you can't get any heals off to keep this person up.

 

Its way to easy right now to CC one healer and focus another thowing CC's and interrupts to kill a sorc healer regardless if the sorc is guarded.

[EvaSofie]

Lets look at this from a game mechanics perspective.

 

Damage bonus Out thrumps Healing Bonus and is always higher. The gap will get larger as stats increase on all players between these.

 

Expertise Damage bonus is by far larger then Healing done and larger than damage reduction.

Meaning that the survivability will for healers go down as expertise on all players gets boosted.

 

Lets look at the sage and sorcerer skills.

 

The bubble dosent scale at all with stats dose between 3-3.5k no matter what gear i slot on.

This ability is kinda like a temporary health pool you give a player instantly in a global cooldown. It is limited in a way that you can not reapply it even if it breaks until the deinonization is gone.

 

Rejuvenate / Resurgence Is a insta heal which heals for a little over time but can not really save you or any one else against incoming damage alone. This if speced will be a armor buff. 797-942 Healing done and 939 over 15 seconds. This spel costs 28 force.

Rejuvenate has a 100% chance to grant Conveyance, which increases the effect of your next healing ability:

Benevolence: Critical chance increased by 60%. (Costs 46 force dose about 2900 healing when criting. In this combination it costs 74. This spell is faster in speed then Deliverance to cast at about 1.4 instead of 2.3 as Deliverance. Making this heal the least cost effective heal to cast. The combination has 2.9 Making this combination not so diffrent to cast then Deliverance as you will se later.)

Deliverance: Force cost reduced by 30%. (This ability costs 51 Force originaly and after applying Conveyance goes down to 36 which makes the total cost of this combination 64. Heals 3196-3340. The combination dose 3993-4282. In two global cooldowns. In base it has 2.3 second cast it is slow but optimal if you can freecast especialy if it crits. The combination has a time of 3.8 to get of.)

Healing Trance: Critical chance increased by 25%. (This will make it so that about a bit over half the ticks are crited.)

Salvation: Force cost reduced by 30%. (This ability costs by it self 91 but in the combination of rejuvenate by itself costs 64, but with the combination costs 92. Making this the most cost effective heal doing 3826 healing to every target in the area over 10 seconds. The draw back with salvation is that it needs to be placed good has a long cast time and is a very expensive cast if it dose not apply healing to anyone.)

 

Utility: Force slow: This is only effective as a deterent before people have actually gotten to you or. when you manage to out run someone with Force speed.

 

Force speed: This is most effective against melee but can be used to in some cases line of sight ranged and get into safety. But if you are slowed it is of no real help. This is best used as a deterent to fast get you into a position where dps have a hard time line of sighting you to begin with.

 

Knockback. This is best used against melee and has no real use for ranged unless you by some chance manage to end up close to them and use it as an interupt. Though alot of melee have attacks which with in the range that they will be pushed back to which in many cases dosent change the scenario at all.

 

Stun: Can be used to escape melee or ranged dps.

 

Jolt: Can be used to interupt most ranged dps with cast times.

 

Rescue: Can be used to save team mates from melee in some cases also from ranged dps if you pull people behind pillars.

 

Restoration/Clense: Can be used to remove Force effects and if speced physical force effects from you and your friends. Though for some reason this dose not work on some slow effects that would be assumed to be force attacks but seem to be counted as tech attacks in this case. This is also a minimal ca 400 heal when speced.

 

Force retention: As a healing sage or sorcerer i have both you need to sacrifice your life to regain your force at a decent pase. If you do not you will basicly be out of commision. But doing so in an organized warzone creates the dilema where you kill yourself to regain force. In either case you regain force. Either by respawn or by managing to survive while you tap your health. Though in most scenarios this is a situation where you die. Its also takes away the use of any other ability during the global cooldown time. Even if you spec for replendens or not here dosent really mater you will be more vulnerable if you do it. And the question is if you are more worth as just an empty vessel to be the meat shield that gets slaughered or not. Though since this pvp is objective oriented staying alive and doing nothing are in many cases better since you can interupt and cap or whatever during tha time.

 

My opinion is that in every scenario that is presented for diffrent classes on an equal basis tools should excist and time should excist to be able to counter and recounter diffrent abilitys to succed in a fight scenario. Using ones utilities and skills to be able to counter eachother on diffrent moves. Of course this is a team game and the conbined teams utility and skill base should be needed but if there is no time for them to even react to what is happening then you are just another free kill.

[Winkywinky]

From your statement that you guard all good healers and leave the bad ones I can tell your talking about normal. This is talking about ranked, where the issues TRUELY come out. As a sorc healer w/ a guard and taunts being thrown you will still die and your tank will die because you can't get any heals off to keep this person up.

 

Its way to easy right now to CC one healer and focus another thowing CC's and interrupts to kill a sorc healer regardless if the sorc is guarded.

 

well if were only talking about rated then what are the other 2-3 healers doing while you and your tank die? we dont even run full guard teams and just move guard around and i only just out of plasma cell to ion when it gos badly.

 

honestly i was mainly talking about rated and just saying i know how good guard is....what you are describing is a team problem and not a sorc problem..if the team cant help spot you in times of need then the problem is them or you are fighting a better team...if 4-5 people are beating on you , do you really expect to live?.. the only class that can is sent/mara..

[UGLYMRJ]

Basically what I read here... and I didn't need to read much is that... Healers need a buff and need to live longer?

 

LOL... seriously?

 

Anyone that has gone up against a competent team realizes that with enough heals on a team that it is almost impossible to cap nodes, doors etc. The objectives are based on people dying. Have you not noticed the pre-mades running 4 healers lately. It took people a while to figure it out but if you run 3-4 CAPABLE healers it is near impossible to kill anything which makes it almost impossible to take objectives from a competent team. No deaths means there is always someone alive to throw down a knockback, AOE, etc to keep people from capping objectives. I've seen this a lot on Swift Sure and Bastion. The LAST thing anyone needs is more durable healers.

 

4 healers, with 2 tanks and 2 DPS is beast mode. If you don't believe me get a capable team together with that set up and you can keep the entire team up all game. Running against this set up (with pugs) it is damn near impossible to kill anyone. In a voidstar last night I racked up near 600k damage and had 3 kills....

 

Even throwing everything at em it was just hard to take anyone down. Some of these guys are beast at cross healing and guarding to keep the team alive. It's impressive when done right and I'm seeing it catch on more and more and we're going to be stealing the set up as well to compete.

[L-RANDLE]

Merc/Commando healers need a buff...........

 

HAHAHAHAHHA

 

 

 

Wait....

Cross-healing, uninterruptable healing Mercs/Commandos need a buff....

 

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

 

Thanks for the funny.

[Astarica]

If you have 4 healers you won't be killing anyone either and only Huttball can be won without killing anybody.

 

At any rate having 4 healers is easy to beat if the enemy has 4 good DPS because currently 1 good DPS handily beats 1 healer even if you don't consider the fact that the 4 DPS can also focus fire on the same healer for a near instant kill. The 'lots of healers' approach is hedging on the fact that the enemy has less good DPS than you have healers. Note that your healer doesn't have to be really good. 4 healer versus 3 DPS will result in a victory of the healing side. While the definition of a good DPS really means 'someone who knows to attack healer first', this probably narrows it down to less than 20% of the PUG so it's not a bad way to start.

[Arayla]

Basically what I read here... and I didn't need to read much is that... Healers need a buff and need to live longer?

 

LOL... seriously?

 

Anyone that has gone up against a competent team realizes that with enough heals on a team that it is almost impossible to cap nodes, doors etc. The objectives are based on people dying. Have you not noticed the pre-mades running 4 healers lately. It took people a while to figure it out but if you run 3-4 CAPABLE healers it is near impossible to kill anything which makes it almost impossible to take objectives from a competent team. No deaths means there is always someone alive to throw down a knockback, AOE, etc to keep people from capping objectives. I've seen this a lot on Swift Sure and Bastion. The LAST thing anyone needs is more durable healers.

 

4 healers, with 2 tanks and 2 DPS is beast mode. If you don't believe me get a capable team together with that set up and you can keep the entire team up all game. Running against this set up (with pugs) it is damn near impossible to kill anyone. In a voidstar last night I racked up near 600k damage and had 3 kills....

 

Even throwing everything at em it was just hard to take anyone down. Some of these guys are beast at cross healing and guarding to keep the team alive. It's impressive when done right and I'm seeing it catch on more and more and we're going to be stealing the set up as well to compete.

 

You're welcome to try running 4 healers in rateds you won't get far because you will lack the offensive power to push through to objectives.

[Darth_Philar]

You're welcome to try running 4 healers in rateds you won't get far because you will lack the offensive power to push through to objectives.

 

Also, you can't cross heal if there are 4 DPS making the 4 healers run for their lives.

[TheLordMaster]

well if were only talking about rated then what are the other 2-3 healers doing while you and your tank die? we dont even run full guard teams and just move guard around and i only just out of plasma cell to ion when it gos badly.

 

honestly i was mainly talking about rated and just saying i know how good guard is....what you are describing is a team problem and not a sorc problem..if the team cant help spot you in times of need then the problem is them or you are fighting a better team...if 4-5 people are beating on you , do you really expect to live?.. the only class that can is sent/mara..

 

The other healer is getting CC'ed interupted from range or shut down by one marauder with their patented double interupt and stun (interupt, zero range charge, force choke, and internal damage bleeds). Usually we run 2 healers like most teams, 3 usually lacks any meaningful dps to kill the other team fast enough to cap a point (this isn't a fact just a general statement my premade team has noticed pitting war hero geared teams against eachother).

 

My tanks are putting up 200-300k protection in void star which is nothing to shrug at. But being unable to get meaninful heals off is a problem when the other healer is getting locked down by 1-2 players as well.

Edited June 28, 2012 by TheLordMaster

[ShiroRX]

Maybe if people actually fake casted in this game they wouldn't be shut down by anyone. You can tell very few healers actually play healers.

 

The only healing class that's just straight up bad at healing is Merc/Commando. They don't even have to be payed attention to by a dps train. They stay alive damn well, but their output is a joke.

Edited June 28, 2012 by ShiroRX

[Annex]

Right now I'd say healing and Damage are balanced post 1.3

 

Strange, but then you said that in 1.2. In fact in any patch that favors DPS you say that (wonder why that is...?). Hell you even claimed healers were opd in 1.2! What you say on this topic is just beyond a joke as your opinion is so obviously vested.

 

Truth is that since 1.2 this game has been DPS central. The only viable healer against organised teams is operative as they are the only ones who can actually kite and heal effectively. Sure Sorcs and Mercs *can* put out good numbers. However thats against disorganised teams who do not know how easy it is to shut a static healer down. If anything the ability to put those numbers out hurts these classes as it masks exactly how bad they are.

 

1.3 was supposed to reduce burst, but instead its just buffed DPS so much that overall burst is barely affected. I have no idea why this is surprising to anyone, its 100% obvious that BW only "balance" this game for DPS classes.

 

BW's beloved "metrics" are obviously based around overall averages, which take no account of the opposition. I'm very sure that on average the figures look reasonably balanced, however against good teams a different story emerges, 2 of the 3 healing classes are just jokes against good teams.

 

What needs to be done is:

 

 

• Overall DPS toned down (TTK changed, significantly) for all classes.
  
• Sorc/Sage healers need a defensive CD urgently and changes to the cast time of healing spells (2s is an utter joke, even 1s is easy to interrupt). Given their pathetic natural defence this would seem obvious but, guess not eh.
  
• Merc healers need either more defence OR stronger heals (depending on the long term direction for the class). If they're a turret healer they need to be able to actually take some damage. Otherwise exactly what is their point?
  

 

As context I have a WH jugg and a WH sorc. Sorc/sage IS underpowered against any decent team. People may disagree with that but tbh, I think thats mainly due to the majority of players being very bad. When you play good team against good team its just blatently obvious.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Annex

[ShiroRX]

DPS Sorcs/Sages have a place, but I think they're much better balance/mad than lightining/tk. Mobility is important for ranked. Good ones can do very good damage, pull healers or other dps out of harm's way, aoe interrupt node caps like no one else, and can be quite effective at cc'ing other healers the dps train isn't on (insta lift/whirlwind, 30m stun, 30m interrupt). Edited June 28, 2012 by ShiroRX

[Kumbel]

I am a full war hero sage healer and honestly I feel that we are so far gone as a class its almost worthless to bring them into a rated wz. Heck why would you when a scoundrel healer has so many tools to keep them alive compared to the other 2 healing classes.

 

Whats made things worse imo is the super toons now running around. Powertechs who can burn me down in less then 3 seconds and there isnt a damn thing I can do to stop them if I am unguarded. If I try to escape they grapple me or stun me. With resolve broken I am just a frozen duck.

I am a little unsure why the devs felt the need to allow full augmenting of toons since mainly benefits the dps and tank classes. I am fully augmented with crit/surg and willpower which doesnt help a damn bit since either I dont live long enough to actually heal someone or my heals are interrupted due to long channel times.

 

As a sage healer do I now need to stack defense to help me live ? Would that even help ?

I want to stay a healer in pvp and since I cant respec for pve all the time, I am stuck as a pure seer.

I was frustrated after 1.2 but now I have become completely discouraged about sage healing in pvp.

I know MANY other sages who feel the same way and some have already started lvling scoundrel healers.

[wtnrj]

it seems to me that something got borked on the pushback adjustment that was made

I dont want a buff or to be more durable or for DPS to loose their what ever it was they got but I do want my 75% pushback reduction on healing casts to actually function

[TheLordMaster]

Maybe if people actually fake casted in this game they wouldn't be shut down by anyone. You can tell very few healers actually play healers.

 

The only healing class that's just straight up bad at healing is Merc/Commando. They don't even have to be payed attention to by a dps train. They stay alive damn well, but their output is a joke.

 

Well you see not only does our fake get interrupted but our next cast gets interrupted as well. We have 2-3 casted spells(depending on how we spec), and a channeled spell. I have had all of these interrupted before. So 4 interuptable spells. Its VERY common for a team to have 4+dps not including tanks and healers that can also throw interrupts. Is this good play YES IT IS VERY GOOD PLAY by a team to rotate interrupts. But even still for christ sake WE SHOULD HAVE SOME CHANCE to heal. That is what were trying to say.

Edited June 28, 2012 by TheLordMaster

[ProfessorWalsh]

Strange, but then you said that in 1.2. In fact in any patch that favors DPS you say that (wonder why that is...?). Hell you even claimed healers were opd in 1.2! What you say on this topic is just beyond a joke as your opinion is so obviously vested.

 

Pre 1.2 Healers were individually overpowered.

1.2 Healers were individually balanced but once cross healing entered the picture they were clearly overpowered.

1.3 Fixes some of the cross healing and makes Healers more reliant on Tanks for survivability.

 

Healers being reliant on Tanks for survivability is a good thing. DPS rely on Healers to stay up long enough to output good damage. Tanks rely on Healers to stay up long enough to keep the Healer alive longer.

 

You may not like this dynamic and you want it to require 2 DPS to kill 1 Healer but that marginalizes both the DPS role and the Tank role. This way all the class types are needed. I am sorry if you aren't a fan of this but it is true. This isn't WoW, stop expecting it to work like WoW.

[Jarlaxb]

Just noticed a few times it stated that heals get the same boost as dps for power = false the healing yeild increase is less than the dps boost increase point for point by a substantional amount, check your caracter sheet. Edited June 28, 2012 by Jarlaxb

[LancelotOC]

Pre 1.2 Healers were individually overpowered.

1.2 Healers were individually balanced but once cross healing entered the picture they were clearly overpowered.

1.3 Fixes some of the cross healing and makes Healers more reliant on Tanks for survivability.

 

Healers being reliant on Tanks for survivability is a good thing. DPS rely on Healers to stay up long enough to output good damage. Tanks rely on Healers to stay up long enough to keep the Healer alive longer.

 

You may not like this dynamic and you want it to require 2 DPS to kill 1 Healer but that marginalizes both the DPS role and the Tank role. This way all the class types are needed. I am sorry if you aren't a fan of this but it is true. This isn't WoW, stop expecting it to work like WoW.

 

It's just the game is too DPS favorable in terms of fun.

 

All the DPS players agree with me whether they want to type it here or not because they don't play support classes so they obviously feel DPS classes are more fun for PVP. Actions speak much louder than words.

 

Tanks just complain all the time about their fun being marginal with their low DPS and needing to spec for damage. So I'm sure they don't want to be playing baby sitter to healers on top of that. How exciting can that be? Do you really need to play a tank to understand their point?

 

Healers have said it repeatadly that being killed by one solo DPS makes them feel useless. If they can't heal enough to keep themsleves alive how are they suppose to be able to heal others.

 

Cut the unbilical cord between healers and tanks. Let healers heal for more and let tanks do more damage.

 

This short sighted guard mechanic only serves DPS classes by making weak solo tanks and healers. With pulls and CC the whole value of guard is questionable to boot. DPS classes, even if they have to 2 man healers, to kill them will not care because ultimatly pvp is about the viceral fun of killing. If kiting and LOSing when mixed with stronger healing makes it even moreso overpowered then nerf kiting as well.

Edited June 28, 2012 by LancelotOC