Lore wise, which class would win?

[Rayla_Felana]

Not exactly, but it is used in forcing and locking out the spirit of an ancient Sith Lord from the body of a living man, so it would seem to exactly counter these force ghosts.

 

One Ancient Sith is not the same as four Ancient Sith Lords who were all major players in the Golden Age of the SIth, one of which was Naga Sadow's main Sith Lord.

 

Also Kallig was far far more powerful than the host body that the Sith Lord was residing in.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

[undeadsithdread]

One Ancient Sith is not the same as four Ancient Sith Lords who were all major players in the Golden Age of the SIth, one of which was Naga Sadow's main Sith Lord.

 

Also Kallig was far far more powerful than the host body that the Sith Lord was residing in.

 

he was ludo kreesh sith lord not naga sadow if i recall.

[Lionflash]

So basically what you're saying is that you don't like the idea that a non-force user can kill a force user, and you intend to disregard all evidence to the contrary.

 

My opinion on force-users vs non-force users has nothing to do with any kind of evidence what so ever... I just stated it doesn't make sense to me.

 

Doesn't chanage the fact that the JK has the better kill record.

[ragnnerok]

Your all off. we all have establiched that classes at some point pwned eachother. So meaning that even if the inquisitor has 4 force ghosts he can still be beaten. It does not matter how much raw power you have you can still be beaten by a tactical genious.

[undeadsithdread]

Your all off. we all have establiched that classes at some point pwned eachother. So meaning that even if the inquisitor has 4 force ghosts he can still be beaten. It does not matter how much raw power you have you can still be beaten by a tactical genious.

 

expect you forget the part where inquesitor is unkillable because of the ghosts inside him/her.

 

the same reason why Darth Thanaton (the same guy before becoming darth gone toe to toe with sith emperor apprentice Exal Kressh and defeated her) and yet he was not powerful enough to not kill inquesitor .

[Sinemetu]

My opinion on force-users vs non-force users has nothing to do with any kind of evidence what so ever... I just stated it doesn't make sense to me.

 

Doesn't chanage the fact that the JK has the better kill record.

 

Except you stated earlier that you don't count the planet storylines because you don't like the fact that it has the agent killing force users left and right. It's called confirmation bias. You only accept information from sources that support your beliefs and ignore sources that would disprove it. If the question were "Which class storyline involves killing the most dangerous enemies," I wouldn't be arguing. In fact, though, the lore--when we include all of it, not just the part you like--indicates that the agent and bounty hunter are as powerful as the force users.

 

You might argue that typical agents, ie, not the agent the story focuses on, would be weaker, and I wouldn't disagree. I think it's clear, though, from the things my agent has been asked to do, that the IA is considered to be as dangerous as any force user. Heck, she did Colicoid War Games, and even Satele Shan said she didn't think she could handle that. "I'm not the warrior I was 20 years ago."

[Chanez]

only reason warriors act better at "manipulating" people because bioware are warrior fanboys of course they try make warrior better at everything then inquesitor.

 

also "better" sith you mean as being enforcer in fact when baras asked sith warrior about sith code and it meaning either you bluff or you say you don't need it.

 

warriors always existed to be inquesitors sidekicks.

 

The whole point of that was to tell you, the sith warrior, can create your own path, the inqusitors however are bound to the sith code from the point they leave their first tomb, making them weaker.

 

Warriors are renegades who abide by no rules, not even the councils. The inquisitor is bound to the rules, the council, and the power that got you so far in life, which the ancestor helps you in btw.

[E-Zekiel]

I'd lean toward consular because his whole storyline revolves around being kinda ridiculously powerful in the Force.

[Niddhog]

Have you played the AI? cuz we take out a guy called one of the most powerfull sith behind the emperor...

 

 

Darth Jadus

 

 

About that... (IA chapter 1 ending spoilers)

 

 

do you really 1v1 fight jadus? Before talking to him he just lolwut? deflects any shots. Watcher 2 even remarks you are insane for even THINKING of fighting him. As an LS option (DS is allying with him) you actually talk him down. Call his bluff, and he walks away. I thought the other option was to detonate one of his WMD's on his ***?

 

[undeadsithdread]

The whole point of that was to tell you, the sith warrior, can create your own path, the inqusitors however are bound to the sith code from the point they leave their first tomb, making them weaker.

 

Warriors are renegades who abide by no rules, not even the councils. The inquisitor is bound to the rules, the council, and the power that got you so far in life, which the ancestor helps you in btw.

 

umm what?

 

sith warriors were less sith then inquesitor he had no real plans he become from baras puppet to emperor puppet he exists only to obey other sith.

 

sith warrior got free ticket in to becoming sith out his bloodline by overseer without any experience or understanding what means to be true sith which was disgusted by baras and had overseer killed for it.

 

while the inquesitor had prove himself many times he was a worthy sith and overseer was still likes pureblood over inquesitor because he is slave that was way before he even meet any ghosts.

[Mikka]

I think the thing we're missing is that 'lore wise'. We're going over mechanics and story, but lore?

 

Despite how I want to proclaim that my operative could destroy you all (and indeed, she has had no problem beating any other class in PVP- on some days, admittedly, other days she loses horribly), this is the Star Wars Universe. What does that mean? It means good guys win.

 

It also tends to mean that force users win. Han is ******, but if you put him in a fight against Luke, Luke wins. So the Smuggler loses, but escapes with excellence and style that leaves the Jedi groaning. We don't have much experience with Troopers in lore, but I imagine similar happens- the Jedi defeats them, but the Trooper performs so well and with such diligence that their opponent cannot help but respect them.

 

So then it comes down to our two Jedi classes. Who wins between them? I think that's the real question.

 

...But the Agent does awesome. Somehow, somewhere, the Agent is doing awesomely.

[Ranadiel_Marius]

About that... (IA chapter 1 ending spoilers)

 

 

do you really 1v1 fight jadus? Before talking to him he just lolwut? deflects any shots. Watcher 2 even remarks you are insane for even THINKING of fighting him. As an LS option (DS is allying with him) you actually talk him down. Call his bluff, and he walks away. I thought the other option was to detonate one of his WMD's on his ***?

 

 

There are four possible outcomes to the encounter.

 

1. Talk him down

2. Refuse to cooperate without talking him down resulting in a multi-stage fight against him as you prepare to trap him in his own ship temporarily so you can destroy the ship(he escapes while you destroy the ship)

3. Pretend to work wih him(I didn't do this one so I don't know whether you fight him or not)

4. Team up with him(resulting in you killing Darth Zhorrid)

 

[TheLoneSage]

More seriously, Lucas seems to have a thing for the unemotional / controlling / plotting / thinking types. They always seem to come out top in his movies. It was very clear to me that the most "powerful" force users in the movies were established as Yoda and Palpatine.

 

Actually, in Lore, Luke Skywalker is the strongest Force-User who ever lived. Ever. Stronger than Vader and the Emperor.

 

It goes in order in Time and Strength:

 

Revan - Jedi Knight(SWTOR) - Yoda - Anakin - Luke

Edited June 30, 2012 by TheLoneSage

[Sinemetu]

There are four possible outcomes to the encounter.

 

1. Talk him down

2. Refuse to cooperate without talking him down resulting in a multi-stage fight against him as you prepare to trap him in his own ship temporarily so you can destroy the ship(he escapes while you destroy the ship)

3. Pretend to work wih him(I didn't do this one so I don't know whether you fight him or not)

4. Team up with him(resulting in you killing Darth Zhorrid)

 

 

Killing him is also an option (DS). It just means sacrificing some lives.

 

[enigmayshi]

Agents also have to improvise as they go, and have mental training to hide their intentions (as evidenced in dealing with Darth Jadus). I suggest playing through the IA storyline. Not only is it the best in the game, imo, but it really shows how one non-Force user can make a difference.

 

I've beaten the IA Story

 

Masking Intent only works so far as you are still talking, the moment you pull a gun and start lining up a shot on a Jedi/Sith that is the moment they will know there is danger even if you are taking a shot from a kilometer away. at their back The Force tends to warn them of such impending danger.

 

Agents may improvise, but they tend to go in with a well thought out plan of action.

 

Btw I've never said a non-force user can't kill a Force User just that it isn't quite as easy as you tried to portray it.

[TrollBerzerker]

You're all wrong.

 

The smuggler would let everyone else fight it out and then shoot the winner in the back of the head with a scattergun before they can patch their wounds.

 

All the jedi powers and tactical planning and big guns in the world won't save you from a guy with a stealth field generator, a scattergun and no qualms about fighting dirty.

Edited July 3, 2012 by TrollBerzerker

[Captain_Zone]

I've beaten the IA Story

 

Masking Intent only works so far as you are still talking, the moment you pull a gun and start lining up a shot on a Jedi/Sith that is the moment they will know there is danger even if you are taking a shot from a kilometer away. at their back The Force tends to warn them of such impending danger.

 

Agents may improvise, but they tend to go in with a well thought out plan of action.

 

Btw I've never said a non-force user can't kill a Force User just that it isn't quite as easy as you tried to portray it.

 

I didn't even try.

[Lionflash]

Except you stated earlier that you don't count the planet storylines because you don't like the fact that it has the agent killing force users left and right. It's called confirmation bias. You only accept information from sources that support your beliefs and ignore sources that would disprove it. If the question were "Which class storyline involves killing the most dangerous enemies," I wouldn't be arguing. In fact, though, the lore--when we include all of it, not just the part you like--indicates that the agent and bounty hunter are as powerful as the force users.

 

You might argue that typical agents, ie, not the agent the story focuses on, would be weaker, and I wouldn't disagree. I think it's clear, though, from the things my agent has been asked to do, that the IA is considered to be as dangerous as any force user. Heck, she did Colicoid War Games, and even Satele Shan said she didn't think she could handle that. "I'm not the warrior I was 20 years ago."

 

That is the question we are trying to discuss... civilly.

 

There is no point in looking at 'World Quests' because ALL of the classes have overcome them. Therefore there is nothing there that we can establish besides they are all equal, they have all beaten the same enemy.

 

So, with that in mind, we need to look to the individual class quests and class villains to see who comes on top. The topic is "Lore wise, which class would win", and so i'll state my opinion again; I think the JK has overcome the most in his/her story.

 

You're right, a regular Agent would fare far worse than the SWTOR Agent, but that goes the double for the SWTOR JK. He/She's pretty much the 'Chosen One' of this game, and while the Agent is good, I don't think he/she's good enough...

[cs_Kimmo]

I think in a fair 1v1 JK > IA. Having the IA all set up in the perfect vantage point vs the JK just getting outta bed is a bit unfair. If that was the case anyone could argue against anyone. I could argue Doc could be anyone under the right circumstances.

 

As for our little off-topic. Nightcrawler is more agile and faster than Wolverine therefor he could teleport him into outerspace or deep underwater (with a series of teleports) if he wanted to.

 

Farfetched, but possible. Also teleporting him 1 mile up and dropping him enough times will cause Logan to black out eventually after which my man Wagner can finish him anyway he wanted to.

 

Not very elegant, but thats how most of these debates go.

 

Actually, since the Agent is not Force-sensitive, that would be the exact definition of fair.

[Lionflash]

Actually, since the Agent is not Force-sensitive, that would be the exact definition of fair.

 

A comprimise...

 

I'll say fair would be that the Sniper can be set up in his/her vantage point, but at the very least have the Knight 'aware' that there is a Sniper, or at least some sort of threat here in the area.

 

The original post that I was referring to as being unfair seemed to place the JK on his patio one blissful morning, not even sure the Knight knew he/she had an assassin after him/her. Might as well have the Knight drugged and tied down to a chair... of course the Sniper is going to win.

 

At least let the Knight have his/her hand on their lightsaber...

 

I still stand by my original opinion that 'The Hero of Tython' would beat 'Cipher Nine'.

[HellbirdIV]

So basically what you're saying is that you don't like the idea that a non-force user can kill a force user, and you intend to disregard all evidence to the contrary.

 

The truth is that trained Force users (Jedi and Sith especially) are incredibly hard to kill for non-Force users.

 

Really, if it was as simple as setting up a railgun sniper rifle and taking shots at Jedi from 2 kilometers away, then the Empire wouldn't have any difficulty wiping the Jedi out in direct battles - conversely, Sith would be just meatshields in ground combat if there was a simple way to take them out.

 

Jedi - and Sith as well - can't be reliably defeated with any one tactic. It requires luck, skill, and above all, the Will of the Force, because of the Force wants you to fail, you're going to fail hard.

[grandmthethird]

in the star wars universe jedi always wins, it makes no difference which class of jedi, the answer is, jedi wins

[Sinemetu]

The truth is that trained Force users (Jedi and Sith especially) are incredibly hard to kill for non-Force users.

 

Really, if it was as simple as setting up a railgun sniper rifle and taking shots at Jedi from 2 kilometers away, then the Empire wouldn't have any difficulty wiping the Jedi out in direct battles - conversely, Sith would be just meatshields in ground combat if there was a simple way to take them out.

 

Jedi - and Sith as well - can't be reliably defeated with any one tactic. It requires luck, skill, and above all, the Will of the Force, because of the Force wants you to fail, you're going to fail hard.

 

I guess the force wanted the Green Jedi on Corellia to fail hard, then, cause I was mowing them down and I definitely didn't have to vary my tactics. So as long as we're going with what "the Force wants" the question is kinda irrelevant because if "the Force wants" the agent to beat the Jedi, the Jedi is just gonna die.

 

Between Order 66 and the various planet quests in swtor, I think the idea that trained "normals" can't take trained force-users is pretty much bunk.

[Sinemetu]

That is the question we are trying to discuss... civilly.

 

There is no point in looking at 'World Quests' because ALL of the classes have overcome them. Therefore there is nothing there that we can establish besides they are all equal, they have all beaten the same enemy.

 

So, with that in mind, we need to look to the individual class quests and class villains to see who comes on top. The topic is "Lore wise, which class would win", and so i'll state my opinion again; I think the JK has overcome the most in his/her story.

 

You're right, a regular Agent would fare far worse than the SWTOR Agent, but that goes the double for the SWTOR JK. He/She's pretty much the 'Chosen One' of this game, and while the Agent is good, I don't think he/she's good enough...

 

You're assuming the enemies in the class quest are harder than enemies fought elsewhere.

[HellbirdIV]

I guess the force wanted the Green Jedi on Corellia to fail hard, then, cause I was mowing them down and I definitely didn't have to vary my tactics.

 

Gameplay is not Lore. This thread is about which class is stronger according to the lore.

 

If we were going by gameplay, I'd still say Jedi Knight though. Since he/she

 

defeats the Emperor repeatedly, a Sith so powerful he can kill "normals" by doing little more than look at them.