Commando DPS and Ranked Warzones

[Excale]

Since Ranked Warzones are coming in 1.3 and Commandos received a minor buff, what's their use in a Rated Warzone?

[azhrione]

Since Ranked Warzones are coming in 1.3 and Commandos received a minor buff, what's their use in a Rated Warzone?

 

Player > Class

 

That being said Commandos and Mercs come into Rated WZs at a significant disadvantage in terms of DPS. Gunnery is a joke in PVP, with long inductions and an utter lack of mobility. Is it possible to PVP as Gunnery and be successful? Sure but it is going to be a heck of a lot harder to do it as opposed to a Gunslinger.

 

Assault is a little better off and the DPS output is borderline OP, the downside is that in Rated WZ you will be going up against stacked classes who hold all the trump cards. Vanguard is just flat out better in this spec with Harpoon, Taunts, 100% no cooldown Plasma Cell proc, and more elemental based attacks. Which means that any sane group takes an Assault Vanguard over an Assault Commando.

 

Right now the preferred Rated WZ group is going to look something like this:

 

Sentinel

Sentinel

Shadow Tank Hybrid

Shadow Tank Hybrid

Assault Vanguard

Lethality Gunslinger

Sawbones Smuggler

Hybrid Sage

 

You could potentially replace the Vanguard or Gunslinger with a DPS Commando, but the group suffers as a whole with the lost utility. Hybrid Sage could also be a CM Commando, but without the bubble or force speed, some maps are going to be really tough.

 

Just remember Player > Class but a great player playing a good class is going to trump one playing a bad class.

[Hudgaar]

And sure Player> Class except when player skill is equal then Class >player. With rated Warzones you're going to see those types of people, where skill is equal or greater due to the competitive nature of rated anything we're going to see the group make ups that bring the most to the table and right now that just isn't any spec of commando. Surely we'll see a team with one commando in it make it big, but odds are its a whole lot help from their allies and they'll have their nemesis group that wont have a merc or commando.

 

Luck comes into play a bit as well, but as commandos are currently built, skill wise, ability wise, talent wise, we bring nothing to the table that a scoundrel/operative or sage/sorcerer doesn't bring to the table better and with more tools. I guess I should build my case better by comparing abilities and tiers of talents. Maybe I'll do that now that I have a lot of time on my hands.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Hudgaar
typos and such

[ArchangelLBC]

My expectation is that as ranked warzones progress Commandos will continually be sat out till there are flat out none in ranked warzones.

 

THEN I finally expect, at some point, BW to pull their collective heads out of their collective butts and realize that commando suffers GREATLY from a lack of utility in PVP and finally give us the buffs they should have added months ago.

 

It is for this reason that I personally kinda hope that these ranked warzone groups become as elitist as possible as soon as possible just to bring the problem to the forefront as quickly as possible.

[TUXs]

My expectation is that as ranked warzones progress Commandos will continually be sat out till there are flat out none in ranked warzones.

 

THEN I finally expect, at some point, BW to pull their collective heads out of their collective butts and realize that commando suffers GREATLY from a lack of utility in PVP and finally give us the buffs they should have added months ago.

 

It is for this reason that I personally kinda hope that these ranked warzone groups become as elitist as possible as soon as possible just to bring the problem to the forefront as quickly as possible.

 

+1 for the same hope. An interrupt would be wonderful.

[Naariss]

Gunnery commando is more powerful in this patch but in ranked warzone you always confront with an experence player Who know weakness ot this class so Gunnery cant do anything in Ranked warzone

[mdesiderio]

DPS Commando has absolutely no place in ranked warzones

[stendarrs]

DPS Commando has absolutely no place in ranked warzones

 

Sadly, this is absolutely correct. I saw this coming and rerolled as a sentinel to get ready for ranked. I still PvP with my commando in hopes that some day they will be a viable option. It's a little disappointing to see that not much is being done in terms of helping the commando utility belt. The truth is that stuns/CC/slows/speedboost/roots/leaps/pulls/pushes are what really control a match and can lead a team to victory. Unfortunately, the commando is very light in "gamechanging" abilities. The knockback is great but the lag can totally kill its usefullness and the added 5 seconds to cooldown (1.2) seems like a much bigger deal than I would imagine most people expected. It's still a fun class to play, but don't be too disappointed when people leave you out of the conversation when ranked WZ teams are discussed.

[decrypter]

DPS Commando has absolutely no place in ranked warzones

 

You wont get into a ranked warzone team , so i wouldent worry dps commando is just a liability cannot defend himself at all , ranked warzone players will shut you down n kill in seconds sadly

[killtemal]

This REALLY pisses me off... not everyone has the time in their life to re-level a new character. I have my Commando Gunnery up to mostly WH gear and am adding augs,.. just to find out that I am useless in Ranked. People wont even respond to my messages.

[Meparch]

Yep, I have full WH augmented armor and I am not invited to ranked WZ groups.

[Bobbyieboy]

Medics are always needed in Rated. you would have to change gear but not re-level a new toon.

[ArchangelLBC]

I refuse to heal, and once I get geared my guild will happily gimp themselves to include me if I really want to do rateds. I won't do that to my guild because I am not a horrible person, but still the possibility exists.

 

Plus as I've said many times, the quicker we go extinct in rateds the quicker BW might actually listen and increase our utility. (BW can I *please* have Hold the Line? Pretty please? I'll never ask for anything again ever I promise).

[Bobbyieboy]

I refuse to heal, and once I get geared my guild will happily gimp themselves to include me if I really want to do rateds. I won't do that to my guild because I am not a horrible person, but still the possibility exists.

 

Plus as I've said many times, the quicker we go extinct in rateds the quicker BW might actually listen and increase our utility. (BW can I *please* have Hold the Line? Pretty please? I'll never ask for anything again ever I promise).

 

I can understand not wanting to heal but here is the issue with the commando. The commando's utility is in it's healing. Just as the Vanguards is in it's tank components. To go all out dps we hurt selves at some point. In this case it's utility.

[ArchangelLBC]

I can understand not wanting to heal but here is the issue with the commando. The commando's utility is in it's healing. Just as the Vanguards is in it's tank components. To go all out dps we hurt selves at some point. In this case it's utility.

 

Understand that when I say "I refuse to heal" I mean "I refuse to choose healing as a role", which is to say I'm not going combat medic spec.

 

You know what ability is useful regardless of what spec you use on vanguard? Harpoon. It's intended as part of the tanking role a vanguard can take but in PVP it's useful all the time.

 

You know what ability is a complete non-factor unless you are effectively out of combat and are just trying to get medals? Medical Probe when Tech Override is down for any commando that isn't a Combat Medic. If you're getting attacked that ability is absolutely useless due to push back and the relatively low amount of healing you receive for the time it takes to finally get a heal off under combat conditions assuming you ever do. If TO is up you can use it as a ghetto medpack, but then that just delays the instant plasma grenade goodness, which is one of my few joys in PVP.

 

People who say that because we have two heals and that balances out our lack of utility in other areas are completely fooling themselves, and ignoring the sages who DO get that utility despite having access to similar abilities.

 

Vanguards can spec Assault and still get great usefulness out of many of their utility tanking abilities. Commandos heals are only game changing when that commando is specced combat medic and then God help you if you try to heal with Hammer Shot while in view of anyone from the opposing team.

 

 

I reiterate my request for Hold the Line instead of Tenacious Defense in the Gunnery tree.

[GrantyJPS]

Pretty much agree with above on the heals. That 'utility' really isnt useful.

 

However, to be fair, our cleanse is pretty sweet.

 

But yeah , in general it seems the baseline stuff you get for being a DPS from a DPS/Tank AC is better or more useful than the baseline stuff you get for being a DPS/Heals AC

[heechJunzi]

I'm curious how you guys are doing in unranked, and whether it's really so hard proving your value.

 

I have two chars: sentinel with 5 WH, and a commando assault with 2 WH. I play both depending on mood. But frankly, the assault commando is just dominant in unranked wz (even with just 1100 expertise). Obviously there's luck involved as well, but assuming an evenly matched contest, my commando is regularly top 2-3 (game-wide, not just for the team) in damage kills and medals. The sentinel is in a lot of ways a game changer.... I'm often able to take a turret 1v1, or even occasionally 1v2. The commando obviously can't do that, but it's still a force multiplier in a big brawl. I almost always medal more in commando than sentinel.

 

So... do things change that drastically in ranked?

Edited July 12, 2012 by heechJunzi

[clearsighted]

I'm curious how you guys are doing in unranked, and whether it's really so hard proving your value.

 

I have two chars: sentinel with 5 WH, and a commando assault with 2 WH. I play both depending on mood. But frankly, the assault commando is just dominant in unranked wz (even with just 1100 expertise). Obviously there's luck involved as well, but assuming an evenly matched contest, my commando is regularly top 2-3 (game-wide, not just for the team) in damage kills and medals. The sentinel is in a lot of ways a game changer.... I'm often able to take a turret 1v1, or even occasionally 1v2. The commando obviously can't do that, but it's still a force multiplier in a big brawl. I almost always medal more in commando than sentinel.

 

So... do things change that drastically in ranked?

 

You've answered your own question, brah.

 

Yes. It is possible, in unranked, to faceroll a bunch've bads. In ranked, maras and PTs bring so much more to the table it isn't even funny.

 

You try going up against a marauder in a ranked match, that is geared the same as you are, and is as skilled as you are. And you'll find that even a little thing like them having an interrupt will f/ck you. Carnage maras will burst harder than you, and annihilation maras will out-damage and out-heal you.

 

Pyrotechs can rack up 50k protection points just by remembering to use their instant taunts off cooldown. A merc who heals more than 50k HP, outside a huttball where you're desperately assisting in keeping the carrier alive, is doing something wrong and/or gimping their damage outpout.

[heechJunzi]

The way I see it is: I'm supposed to lose to a marauder in a melee fight. Otherwise, if I can beat them at range AND at melee, that makes me pretty friggin unstoppable, no? As a commando I'm always looking to push the various melee fights around me in my teams favor. And at least I can 1v1 beat the squishier classes.

 

Like I said, I play a decently geared sentinel (full augs on BM and 5 WH), so I feel like I know both sides of that fight. And yet playing the same quality of "bads", I'm doing much better as commando.

[killtemal]

I'm curious how you guys are doing in unranked, and whether it's really so hard proving your value.

 

I have two chars: sentinel with 5 WH, and a commando assault with 2 WH. I play both depending on mood. But frankly, the assault commando is just dominant in unranked wz (even with just 1100 expertise). Obviously there's luck involved as well, but assuming an evenly matched contest, my commando is regularly top 2-3 (game-wide, not just for the team) in damage kills and medals. The sentinel is in a lot of ways a game changer.... I'm often able to take a turret 1v1, or even occasionally 1v2. The commando obviously can't do that, but it's still a force multiplier in a big brawl. I almost always medal more in commando than sentinel.

 

So... do things change that drastically in ranked?

 

It is hard to be certain considering no one to date will even respond to my whispers or General Chat spam looking for Ranked WZ.

 

In unranked I have my good days for sure,... 16+ medals and top 1 or 2 in damage (I get a ton of MVPs). I am not a pro but I am not bad,... (I think anyway lol)

 

I think the solution is simple,.. run your commando in ranked and report your experience and please tell us what guilds will have you. To date I have been ignored and or literally laughed at when I post in General Chat while mentioning I am Commando Gunnery. If you get owned the answer will be obvious,.. if you don't then and it might just be the beginning of something good,...

[Delaoron]

The best guild on our german server runs with two Commando DDs and one Commando healer. At one point they had a ratio of 94/1. The DDs are Assault spec as far as I know and I wouldn't say that they win because of the Commandos, but this example shows that you can still be very good if you have good players and work together.

I myself guess two Gunslingers would do the job better than two Commandos (can't be jumped, can't be interrupted, CC-immunity on CD, that nifty shield as grp support, dmg is at least as good) but Commandos are still viable in Ranked.

 

With the recent changes I had some fun with my (gunnery) Commando again, though only in unranked yet. With a good healer behind you you can dish out a lot of dmg - 880 dps is my new record, though the enemy team was pretty bad.

[Bobbyieboy]

Understand that when I say "I refuse to heal" I mean "I refuse to choose healing as a role", which is to say I'm not going combat medic spec.

 

You know what ability is useful regardless of what spec you use on vanguard? Harpoon. It's intended as part of the tanking role a vanguard can take but in PVP it's useful all the time.

 

You know what ability is a complete non-factor unless you are effectively out of combat and are just trying to get medals? Medical Probe when Tech Override is down for any commando that isn't a Combat Medic. If you're getting attacked that ability is absolutely useless due to push back and the relatively low amount of healing you receive for the time it takes to finally get a heal off under combat conditions assuming you ever do. If TO is up you can use it as a ghetto medpack, but then that just delays the instant plasma grenade goodness, which is one of my few joys in PVP.

 

People who say that because we have two heals and that balances out our lack of utility in other areas are completely fooling themselves, and ignoring the sages who DO get that utility despite having access to similar abilities.

 

Vanguards can spec Assault and still get great usefulness out of many of their utility tanking abilities. Commandos heals are only game changing when that commando is specced combat medic and then God help you if you try to heal with Hammer Shot while in view of anyone from the opposing team.

 

 

I reiterate my request for Hold the Line instead of Tenacious Defense in the Gunnery tree.

 

I'm not disagreeing that they Vanguard dps has better tools. All i am sayings is the utility in the commando is with healing abilities give. If you choose to not use them that your choice. Utility is not damage productions it's the other. In the Vanguards case it's tanking pieces. With the commando it's healing ones. What you chose to use is your choice and yes the vanguard in my opinion has more utility but this still does not take away the the commando has some as well. It's just in it's heals. Again utility is what you bring beyond your damage.

[ElJako]

I've run a few ranked's with my guild on the Fatman, and I'm consistently near the top or top dps. We're a pretty small guild, so it's hard to get the people, so I've only been able to do ranked's with them once, but we went 7-3 that day. Not only did they have a DPS Commando with them, but we never had fewer than 2 Commandos in the ops. We started off with a CM pug who was pretty dang good, then he had to go so we picked up a Scoundrel. After that one of our dps had to go, and we picked up an Assault Commando. In both instances we won pretty regular.

[ElJako]

With the recent changes I had some fun with my (gunnery) Commando again, though only in unranked yet. With a good healer behind you you can dish out a lot of dmg - 880 dps is my new record, though the enemy team was pretty bad.

 

Now THAT'S impressive. My personal best was only 608.1 in a Voidstar, although I did do 676k damage in a Civil and forgot to check my dps that round.

[ArchangelLBC]

I'm curious how you guys are doing in unranked, and whether it's really so hard proving your value.

 

I have two chars: sentinel with 5 WH, and a commando assault with 2 WH. I play both depending on mood. But frankly, the assault commando is just dominant in unranked wz (even with just 1100 expertise). Obviously there's luck involved as well, but assuming an evenly matched contest, my commando is regularly top 2-3 (game-wide, not just for the team) in damage kills and medals. The sentinel is in a lot of ways a game changer.... I'm often able to take a turret 1v1, or even occasionally 1v2. The commando obviously can't do that, but it's still a force multiplier in a big brawl. I almost always medal more in commando than sentinel.

 

So... do things change that drastically in ranked?

 

Assault Commando has some nice burst, no doubt. I've been very happy with it's performance in unranked but compared to gunnery I probably would have been pleased with anything. Not having near the same setup, and being able to do the first half of a good setup on the move is really nice.

 

You say force multiplier, but I'm not really sure you know what that means. In a big brawl we can definitely help put big damage on the right people, but in any situation where we're on the wrong half of an uneven situation (6 v 4) If they decide they want to focus on us there's not much we can do. A true force multiplier can be part of the 6 v 4 and make their 4 beat the other team's 6.

 

Any class that can do that can really turn the tide in battle. Any class that can't can still be useful because player > class but that doesn't change the fact that the situations they can be in and actually contribute are smaller, and that means that your team's tactical and strategic flexibility is hampered.

 

In unranked this doesn't matter half the time. The best player isn't gonna matter if the whole team runs around like chickens with their heads cut off. Even a set of decent players who aren't used to working with each other won't do well against a team of coordinated players on the other side who are used to working together. Nevertheless a good tank, or better a tank and healer combo can hold off people long enough for their team to reinforce. A commando can just be flat out shut down while they kill his healer buddy, then destroy the commando at their leisure. A marauder or shadow can go threaten a node maybe draw some defenders away, and if things go bad they can call no joy and stealth out of there. A commando can pretty much just go in there and die.

 

In objective based PVP, I'll trade dmg potential for true utility every time.

 

I'm not disagreeing that they Vanguard dps has better tools. All i am sayings is the utility in the commando is with healing abilities give. If you choose to not use them that your choice. Utility is not damage productions it's the other. In the Vanguards case it's tanking pieces. With the commando it's healing ones. What you chose to use is your choice and yes the vanguard in my opinion has more utility but this still does not take away the the commando has some as well. It's just in it's heals. Again utility is what you bring beyond your damage.

 

And all I'm saying is that it's not a matter of choosing to use them or not use them. It's a matter of finding literally anything better to do with your ammo, or trying to get off a Medical Probe or Advanced Medical Probe and failing. Being able to heal out of combat is not utility. It's a way to cheese an extra medal for yourself. The number of real combat situations where our heals will make any appreciable difference to the outcome is absolutely miniscule. This is not to say those situations do not exist, but they are so rare that in my opinion to continue to call them our "utility" is nothing but an insult when BW says that the reason we don't have something as basic as an interrupt is because we already have enough utility from our heals.

 

Right now I would trade my heals entirely in gunnery in exchange for Hold the Line.